Christian Metal music.

[Sojourner]

Just wondering what the thoughts are of Seventh Day Adventists on Christian Heavy Metal music? For, Against, Unsure?

I am guessing its probably normal to encounter SDA churches that have Rock Music as a part of their Praise and Worship in the Sabbath Service and I know that historically some Christians have been vigorously opposed to that idea. In Australia its fairly normal for this type of praise and worship rock music to be used in churches including SDA churches.

I have to confess that I am a huge fan of Christian music, I started out listening to Petra and made my way over to various other bands and singers, the reason that I first attended a church meeting was because a friend loaned me a Christian metal album and I guess I have been hooked ever since!

For those who wonder what the difference is between Rock Music and Metal music, this is a good sample, "Recon", Dreams - http://youtu.be/K7iNOyw9qs0

[Miss Jessie]

I used to like rock 'n' roll music, whether or not it was Christian. I especially enjoyed those that had clean lyrics, and Switchfoot was one of my favorite bands.

I wouldn't have given up the music without a really good reason. I could argue away whatever evidence had been given to me, up to a point, but then I saw something that revealed to me just how dangerous it really is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki3-VcoEkfY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ov49Xm9rmY

This might be a better link to watch the second from

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he7HSJIFFDE

I'm sorry that the quality is not so good. The other one in parts has better quality, but whoever uploaded it said that youtube blocked some of the parts.

Especially the second link. I might have been able to argue or reason away the ideas presented in the first link, but not the second.

So, before any arguments are presented, I recommend prayerfully watching these two videos, or at least the second. I think you can find at least the second link in parts on youtube, if that may be easier to watch. It's kind of entertaining, too.

[Bravus]

I'm a big fan of metal in general, and there are a number of Christian bands that win their place on the iPod through sheer quality and brilliance. I'm into the heavier end of the metal spectrum. Here's a quick rundown of a few of my favourites:

Emery - kind of 'Queen meets screamo', with excellent melodies and harmony vocals, and brilliant lyrics. Absolutely worth a look.

Flyleaf - female vocals, mostly 'clean' (i.e. not screamed), thoughtful lyrics and great songs

Zao - not sure how to classify them by genre, but really great. A couple of concept albums, and really interesting and well written.

Antestor - Christian black metal - sometimes called 'white metal'. Musically and lyrically brilliant, if you enjoy the black metal style.

Goliath - heavy doomy style with 'clean' vocals

Mortification - Australian thrash/death ('life'?) metal band

[Bravus]

Enjoyed that Recon track, too. If you like them you probably already know Stryper, but might enjoy Whitecross, Messiah Prophet, Neon Cross, ...

[Bravus]

And what is it with preachers and 1.5-2 hour videos? And the 1.5 hour one is the condensed version of a 12 hour seminar! If you can't put the message across clearly in 20 minutes you need to work on your communication.

Would be very happy to hear a precis of either or both videos, but in the absence of that I'm gonna go ahead and assume the arguments are the same flawed ones we've been hearing since the 60s.

[CoAspen]

I have a book written in the 60's by Lickey, Gordon, I think, in which he wrote the only appropriate christian music was classical, if the correct type! Back then rock and roll of the 50's and early 60's was the bad boy. Conservative religion has always had issues with music down through the centuries. Some of it was most likely cultural, such as styles introduced by slaves during early US history. Different/changes are most always difficult for people to deal with initialy, in all aspects of life and work.

I'm not a heavy metal listener nor would I know how to define it. My tastes have changed over the years and enjoy many types of music. Example, I like Trance and its subtypes, House, Techno and other variations of club and dance music. I can even go to sleep listening to it!!!

[Sojourner]

Miss Jesse, - I will have a look at your links, yet I will say that I have heard both sides of the arguement before, there was a popular video in the late 1980's on secular rock music called "Hells Bells" where various claims were made and I have read books by Rob Auch who is opposed to Christian rock music also. My response is that I do not agree, my concern is that people get involved in the religion of Western Animism before they get involved with Christianity and in cases, "Veneer" their Christianity over Animism, beleiving that Christians can be cursed and that Rock music can summon a demonic spirit and so forth. I reject that outright and do not believe those things are true.

Bravus - I think we would get along fairly well! Mortification were very popular in Oz several years ago now, their trademark was making the sounds of souls entering the lake of fire post judgement on the guitars! I guess I would say that I am more into the other end of the spectrum and not a massive thrash metal fan, probably more the Glam - Industrial styles. I suspect that I will enjoy youtubing some of the others you have mentioned though!

Co-Aspen, - Like yourself I am pretty open minded to various styles, Pendulum are an Aussie Techno/Trance-Metal band that you might find interesting!

[M. T. Cross]

The biggest problem I have always had with Christian metal is that it is usually so horribly written. Some of the bands Bravus suggested seem to have upped the bar a whole bunch. Early in the genre however I used to be in hysterics laughing at how bad most of it was.

[Gregory Matthews]

A study of the hymns in the standard SDA hymnal would be interesting and enlighten many people.

In the standard SDA hymnal a number of the tunes were German/European drinking songs sung in alcoholic establishments. Yes, the words are different. But the music is the same.

[CoAspen]

iTuned them....Watercolour(DeadMau5 remix) and The Island, original and Tiesto remix were very good. Thanks for the tip, always looking for something different. Seems iTunes latest tracks or albums was 2011 though.

[Esquared]

Theocracy - This is all you need to know!

Theocracy - I Am

[Bravus]

Nice! I can hear the Symphony X progressive power metal style there. The vocalist reminds me quite a lot of the guy in Australian not-Christian-but-positive power metal band Voyager, who you might also enjoy.

[Bravus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AawFVtd4heo&list=PLDFFB841099B6F1A5

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Theocracy - This is all you need to know!

Theocracy - I Am

I almost didn't click the link, as I'm not particularly fond of metal band music, heavy or otherwise, but this was rather good.... although at one point I was wondering if they'd gotten part of their score from bagpipes... :)

[Guest]

I used to like rock 'n' roll music, whether or not it was Christian. I especially enjoyed those that had clean lyrics, and Switchfoot was one of my favorite bands.

I wouldn't have given up the music without a really good reason. I could argue away whatever evidence had been given to me, up to a point, but then I saw something that revealed to me just how dangerous it really is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki3-VcoEkfY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ov49Xm9rmY

This might be a better link to watch the second from

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he7HSJIFFDE

I'm sorry that the quality is not so good. The other one in parts has better quality, but whoever uploaded it said that youtube blocked some of the parts.

Especially the second link. I might have been able to argue or reason away the ideas presented in the first link, but not the second.

So, before any arguments are presented, I recommend prayerfully watching these two videos, or at least the second. I think you can find at least the second link in parts on youtube, if that may be easier to watch. It's kind of entertaining, too.

Good stuff

[7daysadventist]

Sojourner, Thank you so much for starting this thread. I can't recall seeing such a topic here before. Rock yes but not Christian metal.

I believe there are many many Adventist that have a passion for Christian rock and metal. Unfortunately, most feel they have to hide their guilty pleasure from those that don't understand. In the traditional and conservative churches many not only don't understand the music ministry but can be highly critical/judgmental. It's easy to judge on appearances of things we don't understand or have a deep appreciation for. So many people have been brought to or back to the church through Christian hard rock and metal. It's a huge ministry. It fills a void left from leaving the secular music industry behind.

Over the years I have collected nearly every Christian hard rock and metal album. I've attended many festivals. I've witnessed the life changing power of God working through this music.

[Miss Jessie]

It's not just a preachy sermon. It's full of historical facts and samples of music. Until you watch these videos, you really are in ignorance.

By the way, don't you know this is a Seventh-day Adventist Christian online community? Aren't we all Christians, here?

Seventh-day Adventist Christians, at the very least, should be understanding of other Seventh-day Adventist Christians who are trying to warn them of the evils in wordly things, the dangers in unhealthful diets, etc, because that's the doctrine that we teach and believe. If you can't accept the principals of the SDA Christian faith, you should at least be understanding and patient towards those who decide to hold to and cling to those principals, whether or not they come across as extremists.

This is something that's bothered me for some time, and I've done it to...the hostility towards concerned Christians who come to you to try to point out that something you're doing can separate you from Christ or ruin your relationship with Him. Whether or not you believe it's true, or whether or not it's true, we should at least be understanding of those people. After all, it's about love, and if you love someone, you're not going to let them drink a bottle with a skull and crossbones on it, even if they realize that there's nothing but grape juice in that bottle...

Do you understand what I'm saying? Some of you are coming across like the Seventh-day Adventist "friend" of mine that bashed me because I didn't eat meat, because I was a vegetarian, when he himself grew up as a vegetarian and later went to eating meat, accusing vegetarians of being judgmental, and he wasn't too kind in his insults and accusations either. Doesn't that seem judgmental, too? At that time, I wasn't even (if I recall correctly) pushing the view of a vegetarian diet...

The fact is, even if vegetarianism isn't a decision on which eternity is based, we should at least be understanding of SDAs and others who promote a vegetarian diet.

That being the case, whether or not you agree with whether or not music or heavy metal is a decision on which eternity is based, you should be understanding of those who believe it is, and who are trying to warn you.

Besides, I'm not going to condense those videos or give you a summary, because if I just told you what they were about, you would still continue on in ignorance, without seeing the evidence for yourself. It would be based on what I said.

At least if you watch these videos, you'd be INFORMED instead of ignorant. That way your views can be more based on facts that opinions, or you'll at least know what heavy, cold, hard facts you're up against so that you can look for some real reasons to enjoy that music. Right now, your arguments for the music are ridiculous compared to the solid evidence against it, so I'd recommend watching at least one of the videos so that you can be informed of the solid evidence against the music. And I recommend doing so prayerfully. Honestly, the arguments for it don't stand...

But, to slightly sum up the principles behind the videos, or one of the principles...

If you were dying of thirst, lost out in a desert, and you came across two jars of water---wouldn't they both be drinkable?

Yes, water's good for you...

If you were hungry, would you eat bread? Yes, bread's good for you.

What about oil? Is oil okay, yes?

Now, if you came across a jar of water, and a jar that had water, soggy bread, and oil in it...which would you choose?

Most likely, the jar of just plain water would be more satisfying to your thirst. The jar of soggy, mushy bread and yellow oil floating on top wouldn't look so appealing...

Now what if you come across a jar of water, and a jar that has a mix of water and a highly toxic, lemon scented cleaning chemical...

Which would you drink? Doesn't the lemon cleaning chemical make the water smell like lemonade, appetizing. Why wouldn't you drink it?

Maybe you'd drink it, but I'd go for the less-appealing looking one with the bread and oil in it.

Why not the one with the chemical though? It has water in it...Water's good, right?

But even though there's something good in the jar, the chemical will still make you sick or kill you.

No, that illustration isn't given in the video, but that's the idea. If something has a trace of the devil in it, it's best to avoid it, even if it looks and smells like it would taste better, and the alternative doesn't look as appealing.

As we discuss this, by the way, please do so prayerfully. Whether for or against these things, the Spirit of Christ should always guide our discussions...I recommend rereading our posts to see if we come across like the Lord would if He were talking to each of the others, or if we come across like the enemy of souls. It's easy to let self get in the way, whatever side you take.

On another note, I'm not much of a preacher. I wouldn't have given the things up that I gave up if I had a valid argument for those things. I had tried to reason away all the arguments presented to me up to a point, until I accidentally stumbled across the second of the videos that I showed you. It was then that I was convinced, and I couldn't go back to those things...

On another note:

The friend I mentioned who bashed me because of my vegetarianism and I are no longer friends. In fact, after my experience with him, I avoided church for a while. I may have left the SDA church after my experiences with him, except that I believe this church has the Truth...and there was nowhere else I could go. I didn't want to give up on God, just the SDA church. That kind of pride that insults and looks down upon other SDAs because their views differ or because they are trying to stand up for what they believe is right can drive people away from the church, possibly away from God.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

one of the points in the 1.5 hour lecture is that music without lyrics still evokes a "message," and examples were given of "scary" music, "relaxing" music, and "happy" music...

That's a fallacy, because reactions/evocations are culturally determined.

Take, for example, the "scary" music example, consisting of drums and percussion. In Africa and in Celtic countries, drums and percussion have various meanings, according to situations. They can be calls to war, or they can be hugely celebratory.

Then there's the "happy" music example, using higher pitched flutes, woodwinds and strings. Some people are very much adversely affected by those sounds, and find them annoying.

The "calming" music used lower pitched harmonics of strings and added piano and string trills. Granted, *that* particular combination has been shown to calm infants who've had little to no exposure to music, but in populations exposed to other types of culturally acceptable music, it may not have that affect.

My point is that lumping all music together and state it will evoke *specific messages* in all people is not correct.

[Miss Jessie]

That may be true to some degree, but what about movies? I've watched Korean movies, Japanese movies, Taiwanese movies, American movies, German movies, I think at least one movie that may have been made in a Spanish-speaking country, or was at least in Spanish, and documentaries about other countries.

Of course there are different instruments, but the music principle seems to be the same.

I don't believe it may evoke a specific message, but it will evoke a general message.

For example: Happy, upbeat, annoyed, anxious...All of those are feelings with energy

Violence, anger, frustration, fright, enthusiasm...All of those are feelings with energy

Relaxed, calm, soothing, mellow, possibly depressing...all of those have less energy

[CoAspen]

Quote:

My point is that lumping all music together and state it will evoke *specific messages* in all people is not correct.

And a well established fact!!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

not sure why "movies" are being introduced into the topic...

equating "emotions" to "messages" to "energy" doesn't seem to give much credence on the idea that music sans lyrics can send evil messages...

energy is not evil... indeed, energy is life...

[Miss Jessie]

@rudywolfs:

Because you're trying to argue based on culture. I'm saying that movies made in different cultures besides ours still seem to have the same types of music for certain scenes, such as scary scenes, exciting scenes, violent scenes, etc. So if our responses to music really differed that much based on culture, then they would have to use different music to fit their culture. I'm talking about movies made in that culture for people of that culture use the same kinds of music we'd use in movies made for our culture for the same kind of scenes to get the same kind of emotional responses.

I was not saying that emotions equal message equal energy or that energy was evil. You're getting things out of this that I did not actually say, nor was I even thinking about, as far as I'm aware. Instead of interpreting, how about asking?

But don't bother responding to me here. I'm not going to be looking at this thread again unless I'm called to it. I've said all that I'm going to say here. I just wanted to show the videos so you all could have some facts to either work on or go up against. Besides, the fact that music triggers emotions isn't the main problem. That's just one point he made in the video.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

rudywolfs

I wonder if that was a subconscious error....

At any rate, I was merely commenting on one of the errors in the video posted by Miss Jessie who stated she wouldn't discuss this topic with anyone who didn't view the video.

[M. T. Cross]

By the way, don't you know this is a Seventh-day Adventist Christian online community? Aren't we all Christians, here?

No, we are not all Christians here.

[Tom Wetmore]

....

But don't bother responding to me here. I'm not going to be looking at this thread again unless I'm called to it. I've said all that I'm going to say here. I just wanted to show the videos so you all could have some facts to either work on or go up against....

Moderator Note: Miss Jessie, I was prepared to give you the benefit of e doubt on your previous lengthy post that could well be interpreted as attacking those who,disagree with you or that you interpret as forcing their views on you. My reaction was that you seemed to be doing what you accused others of. This comment tends to confirm it. It seems to sat you aren't really interested in others' point of view and only want to preach your view. that would be fine as far as it goes. But expect that even among Christians and even Adventist Christians there will be a range of perspectives and considerable difference of opinion on topics, especially one as fraught with subjectivity, culture, emotion, and personal experience.

Your comment conveys an attitude of "I am right and no other view can be right. So I won't consider the thoughts of anyone who may differ with me." Read carefully the text below the banner at the top of the page and let it sink in. Please.