WO

[whbae]

I am sure this WO issue has been discussed here many times. But, I am troubled.

Is there anyone who can give me Bible information stating that God is against

WO? I do not want someone beating around the bushes. I can beat around the bushes for and against WO. I would like to see specific statement. Thanks.

[Kevin H]

I can't find anything for God being against WO. But I find a few minor and three major points in favor of him being FOR WO. But it's too late at night to go into details but summery:

In the Old Testament men and women were required to wear a blue thread in their tassels. That blue thread has been discovered to be only limited to ordained priests in the ancient world. Thus every one men and women Hebrews were wearing the blue thread that outside of Israel only ordained priests could wear, thus indicating that the whole country was ordained.

In the time of Jesus WO was a major debate among Jews. However, it was the conservatives who supported WO and the liberals who opposed it. About 100 years before Jesus, a Rabbi who had a bad marriage, but who was popular with the liberal Rabbis and Pharisees was saying that the Jews need to STOP ordaining women and needed to remove the blue thread from women's clothing.

In Jesus' day, when Rabbi's taught they would sit in a chair. The laity would stand and listen to the Rabbi (and yes there were lady Rabbis) and people who were ordained disciples would sit at the Rabbi's feet. Among the liberals who were against WO the women were not to stand and listen but only men, the women were to listen while doing different tasks. The story of Mary and Martha, Martha was doing the thing that the "Good" Jewish lady who agreed that women should not be ordained was to do, while Mary was not standing but actually sitting at Jesus' feet, the position of ordination! And horribly when Martha protested Women's Ordination Jesus invited her to come and be ordained as well.

In Acts and other NT books, the leader of ministry teams had their names first. There is a couple in the Bible, a ministry team of a husband and wife. In all but one place where they are referred to as husband and wife the husband's name came first and the wife's second. However 100% of the time it discusses them as a ministry team it is the wife's name first and husband's name second so that the wife was the leader of the team and her husband was her assistant pastor.

[Gail]

In the Old Testament men and women were required to wear a blue thread in their tassels. That blue thread has been discovered to be only limited to ordained priests in the ancient world. Thus every one men and women Hebrews were wearing the blue thread that outside of Israel only ordained priests could wear, thus indicating that the whole country was ordained.

I LOVE this idea! There was a visual reminder to whom their allegiance rested.

[8thdaypriest]

A very interesting book is Ruth Hoppin's "Priscilla's Letter". She makes a strong argument that Priscilla wrote the Letter to the Hebrews. The letter was not signed precisely BECAUSE it was written by a woman.

Blessings

[Tom Wetmore]

While I would like to believe that to be true, I think it is simply not provable. If written by a woman, why Priscilla? Why not Phoebe, the one Paul entrusted with his letter to the Romans, to deliver it and explain it to the believers. That would be consistent with his strong endorsement of her as a NT church leader, even someone to whom he looked up to.

[8thdaypriest]

Agreed - not provable, but I think strong arguments were provided. You'll just have to read the book. Can't list all of them here.

[Tom Wetmore]

I shall have to get a copy. Thanks for bringing it to our attention!

[Jeannieb43]

I shall have to get a copy. Thanks for bringing it to our attention!

Likewise.

[Gregory Matthews]

I can think of several reasons to purchase and read the book:

1) To learn what the author actually says. If you have not read the book, you do not know what she says.

2) If I am going to argue that a position is wrong, I need to know exactly what the position is that I oppose.

There are more reasons, but this is a start.

[Tom Wetmore]

EGW wrote many things that were undispute and accepted as correct in her day. That she could do so based on common knowledge/understanding of the day doesn't detract from her inspiration. And when those bits of accepted knowledge may stand corrected/updated it also does not detract from her inspiration. She her self changed and grew in her understanding of quite a number of things over her lifetime. That does not mean we should not trust her inspiration. She was not infallible.

And just because she is now dead, does not mean that learning and growth in our understanding or even the hope of change and progress or any new light died with her.

From her perspective at the time there was likely no reason to question or dispute the long held tradition that Paul wrote Hebrews. For her to have disputed that or claimed anyone else to be the author would have needlessly detracted from anything she had to say about the content of Hebrews.

[Woody]

There were many things EGW stated as fact because that was what was accepted as fact in her day. Just because she makes a statement .... does not mean she was inspired to make that statement. Knowledge continues to grow. She grew and changed her beliefs many times during her lifetime. That does not detract from her 'prophet' status. As a prophet .... she had a mission and message to perform and deliver . And she did it well. This ideological promoting that she was infallible is totally off base. She herself debunked that and told us to compare all she said to scripture.

[Tom Wetmore]

Rather one-sided of course. But it still doesn't really say that God is against WO. No clear prohibition of WO, or women in pastoral ministry for that matter to be found in Scripture. Nor is there a clear endorsement of the idea in Scripture.

However, just as this article interprets and makes certain assumptions (like, priest = minister) one can also present persuasive Biblical evidence in support of women in pastoral ministry.

For me, among the most compelling pieces of evidence is Paul's own description and endorsement of Phoebe as a church minister and leader. (Romans 16:1-2)

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

But women were not ordained to the gospel ministry. We were the people of the Book. And the Book spoke clearly on this issue. We had a woman prophet and the Book smiled on that. It did not smile on the idea of having women elders. (Ordaining women was suggested once in meeting. It didn’t get as far as a vote.) -

See more at: http://advindicate.com/articles/1842#sthash.RRiGGIGL.dpuf

Early in my youth I was asked several times, Are you a prophet? I have ever responded, I am the Lord’s messenger. I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title. My Saviour declared me to be His messenger. “Your work,” He instructed me, “is to bear My word. Strange things will arise, and in your youth I set you apart to bear the message to the erring ones, to carry the word before unbelievers, and with pen and voice to reprove from the Word actions that are not right. Exhort from the Word. I will make My Word open to you. It shall not be as a strange language. In the true eloquence of simplicity, with voice and pen, the messages that I give shall be heard from one who has never learned in the schools. My Spirit and My power shall be with you.{1SM 32.2} ubderlined mine LHC

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Gregory Matthews]

Jackson: For a number of years, Ellen White carried the credentials of an ordained minister.

With these credentials the SDA denomination represented EGW as an ordained minister.

Ellen White never refused those credentials. She never admonished the GC for giving them to her. Each time they were renewed, she kept silent.

Are you telling us the EGW would keep silent when she was aware of what you would likely call an open violation of God's will that involved her? Astounding!

Are you telling us that the SDA denomination engaged in dishonesty in representing EGW as an ordained minister when you would say she was not? Astounding!

The Biblical issue is not ordination. Rather it is the role of women in spiritual nurture and spiritual leadership. Prophets were spiritual leaders and nurtured others. Non-SDA clergy simply cannot understand how a denomination that was co-founded by a woman, that considers a woman to be a prophet, can say that the Bible does not allow women to be ordained. They have a point.

[Woody]

Quote:

I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title. My Saviour declared me to be His messenger.

Please note. Our prophet herself called herself a messenger. Messenger was the title used for the pastors of her time. They did not go by 'pastor' they went by the title 'messenger'.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Please note. Our prophet herself called herself a messenger. Messenger was the title used for the pastors of her time. They did not go by 'pastor' they went by the title 'messenger'.

not sure which ministers of which denominations were calling themselves "messengers" in the 19th century, but it certainly was not the Methodist-Episcopals, the Quakers, the Baptists, or the Lutherans... they called themselves, "ministers of the gospel"... and most had other jobs aside from pastoral duties.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Messenger was the title used for the pastors of her time. They did not go by 'pastor' they went by the title 'messenger'.

The above is news to me.

Can you document it? Please do.

[whbae]

It is strange to me that those who oppose women in leadership based on the Bible principle have nothing to say about women being leaders in other field beside ministry.

There are a lot of women school principals under whom there are a lot of male teachers. Do you suppose these male teachers would not obey their bosse's order because it is coming from a female? There are a lot of department heads yet, no one complains about it.

According Paul women should not teach in church, yet there are many SS teachers including superintendent position. Nowadays, I do not see women covering their heads in church yet no one complains about it.

If one argues about order of creation, thus men are above women, consider what was created before Adam. These are ridiculous ideas to rationalize their own thinking. My mother said once Bible is like this, if you want to make an ear ring out of the Bible verses you can do it. If you want make a nose ring out of the same verse you also can do it.

If you read "Daughters of God" by E.G. White she states that women should cultivate God given talent without restrain. Think about this statement.

She did not say there is some restriction such as no leadership talent.

Wbae

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If one argues about order of creation, thus men are above women, consider what was created before Adam. These are ridiculous ideas to rationalize their own thinking.

Wbae

LOL whbae, Good point!!!

[Gregory Matthews]

Woody may be on to something, although I think that he has overstated it.

I went looking and found the following:

Quote:

32. aggelos -- a messenger, angel

... From aggello (probably derived from ago; compare agele) (to bring tidings); a messenger;

especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor -- angel, messenger. ...

If one were to take the position that EGW in calling herself a "messenger" was using a same word also used to represent a clergy-person, or pastor, we have an interesting situation is which we say that EGW was calling herself a pastor, or clergy-person.

While this may be an overstatement, it may very well be worth while to look into.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

did Mrs White call herself, "aggelos", or did she call herself, "messenger"?

[JoeMo]

Quote:

If one argues about order of creation, thus men are above women, consider what was created before Adam. These are ridiculous ideas to rationalize their own thinking.

If you think about it, the last creature created was a woman. After God created man, he worked out all the bugs and kinks, and then He created women.

Another way to look at it - woman were created out of flesh and bone (Adam's rib). They are genuine human beings. Men were created out of the dust of the earth, so they are just dirtbags.

[Gregory Matthews]

Pam, you are thinking. Shame on you. :)

[Woody]

Quote:

Messenger was the title used for the pastors of her time. They did not go by 'pastor' they went by the title 'messenger'.

The above is news to me.

Can you document it? Please do.

I've documented it here before Gregory. Would have to do some digging. Not sure if the archives here would have it. But yes Pam .... the title messenger was used in our denomination. I have no idea what the Baptists etc called their pastors.

[Woody]

Gregory --- here's a few quotes for you to review on the topic:

Ellen White describes those in ministry as being the messengers:

"God's chosen messengers, who are engaged in aggressive labor, should never be compelled to go a warfare at their own charges, unaided by the sympathetic and hearty support of their brethren. It is the part of church members to deal liberally with those who lay aside their secular employment that they may give themselves to the ministry. When God's ministers are encouraged, His cause is greatly advanced. But when, through the selfishness of men, their rightful support is withheld, their hands are weakened, and often their usefulness is seriously crippled." AA 340

"The displeasure of God is kindled against those who claim to be His followers, yet allow consecrated workers to suffer for the necessities of life while engaged in active ministry. These selfish ones will be called to render an account, not only for the misuse of their Lord's money, but for the depression and heartache which their course has brought upon His faithful servants. Those who are called to the work of the ministry, and at the call of duty give up all to engage in God's service, should receive for their self-sacrificing efforts wages sufficient to support themselves and their families." AA 340

"When God's messengers recognize their responsibilities toward the needy portions of the Lord's vineyard, and in the spirit of the Master Worker labor untiringly for the conversion of souls, the angels of God will prepare the way before them, and the means necessary for the carrying forward of the work will be provided. Those who are enlightened will give freely to support the work done in their behalf. They will respond liberally to every call for help, and the Spirit of God will move upon their hearts to sustain the Lord's cause not only in the home fields, but in the regions beyond. Thus strength will come to the working forces in other places, and the work of the Lord will advance in His own appointed way." AA 357

"Why do some of our ministers manifest so little interest in health reform? It is because instruction on temperance in all things is opposed to their practice of self-indulgence. In some places this has been the great stumbling block in the way of our bringing the people to investigate and practice and teach health reform. No one should be set apart as a teacher of the people while his or her own teaching or example contradicts the testimony God has given His servants to bear in regard to diet, for this will bring confusion. Disregard of health reform unfits one to stand as the Lord’s messenger." BLJ 291

"He who gave back to the widow her only son as he was carried to the burial is touched today by the woe of the bereaved mother. He who wept tears of sympathy at the grave of Lazarus and gave back to Martha and Mary their buried brother; who pardoned Mary Magdalene; who remembered His mother when He was hanging in agony upon the cross; who appeared to the weeping women and made them His messengers to spread the first glad tidings of a risen Saviour--He is woman's best friend today and is ready to aid her in all the relations of life." AH 204

"Messengers should be appointed who can present the Word of God from city to city". -Manuscript 52, 1900.