Denominators

[Woody]

What are the most common denominators in this denomination?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I suppose the *lowest* common denominator specifically for the SDA church would be "Ellen White's ministry," and the accompanying idea of "investigative judgement"...

worshiping on the Sabbath isn't SDA-specific, nor is the 2nd advent, nor Christ as the Savior and Son of God, nor baptism, nor being vegan and refraining from eating unclean meats, nor tithing, nor the issues of jewelry/dancing/movies...

kinda sad, when one stops to think about it...

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I suppose the *lowest* common denominator specifically for the SDA church would be "Ellen White's ministry," and the accompanying idea of "investigative judgement"...

To these I would add the whole "day-for-a-year" concept applying to all of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation (except for the millennium; and no one has ever explained to me why the sudden change to literal time in Rev. 20); and the associated 1844 thing.

[Kevin H]

Mrs. White said it best:

In Minneapolis God gave precious gems of truth to His people in new settings. This light from heaven by some was rejected with all the stubbornness the Jews manifested in rejecting Christ, and there was much talk about standing by the old landmarks. But there was evidence they knew not what the old landmarks were. There was evidence and there was reasoning from the word that commended itself to the conscience; but the minds of men were fixed, sealed against the entrance of light, because they had decided it was a dangerous error removing the “old landmarks” when it was not moving a peg of the old landmarks, but they had perverted ideas of what constituted the old landmarks.

The passing of the time in 1844 was a period of great events, opening to our astonished eyes the cleansing of the sanctuary transpiring in heaven, and having decided relation to God’s people upon the earth, [also] the first and second angels’ messages and the third, unfurling the banner on which was inscribed, “The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.” One of the landmarks under this message was the temple of God, seen by His truth-loving people in heaven, and the ark containing the law of God. The light of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment flashed its strong rays in the pathway of the transgressors of God’s law. The nonimmortality of the wicked is an old landmark. I can call to mind

[Kevin H]

Quote:

I suppose the *lowest* common denominator specifically for the SDA church would be "Ellen White's ministry," and the accompanying idea of "investigative judgement"...

To these I would add the whole "day-for-a-year" concept applying to all of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation (except for the millennium; and no one has ever explained to me why the sudden change to literal time in Rev. 20); and the associated 1844 thing.

Context JoeMo my friend, context.... We learned the year day principle when Joachim of Fiore went to the Middle East on the crusades and ran into Eastern thought including Cyclic Thought and realized the importance of this principle when studying the scriptures. Joachim of Fiore was considered by many to have been a true inspired Prophet of God and Protestantism grew out of his thought and prophecies. He was also one of the major influencers of the Historisists method of interpreting prophecy. Dispensationalism is also based on his works, however what the Dispensationalists have done is take part of what he says, at the expense of his whole message, and then builds fanciful ideas and speculations on only a portion of his works. Although his prophecies were how the gospel could have spread and the world come to an end during his day. His followers, especially among the Franciscans, would hold on to his principles although modify as history continued. His views grew into and influenced the Reformers (but they were also quite Augustinian as well) where they continued to develop until eventually a series of Bible Conferences in the late 1700s and into the 1830s where William Miller carried them into his preaching and into the Seventh-day Adventist church.

You can read some more about Joachim of Fiore http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_of_Fiore

You can learn more about the cyclic thought in the book "Before Philosophy" by Henri Frankfort and others, 1946 University of Chicago Press. Also some in the works of Mircea Eliade, but what I strongly recommend is Frankfort's work.

Leviticus 23 gives us the Hebrew cycles and it was based on the week: 6 days and the weekly Sabbath, the two growing seasons with Passover/Yom Kippur, 6 years and the Sabbatical year and 6 Sabbatical years and the Jubilee. These were seen as interchangeable times.

Deuteronomy also has the cycles, except everything that happened in the Jubilee would be in the Sabbatical year. Since Daniel is based on Deuteronomy, his cycles would be day, half year or full year cycles.

Now I do believe we are in trouble as there are some prophecies which are already given in a day-year cycle, but then breaks down to specific literal months or days with in the larger year-day prophecy, so we end up with a double application. I believe that we need to weed these out of our study.

Anyway JoeMo, except for where we have ended up doubling the year-day application, we basically apply the year-day to the context of the prophetic cyclic time texts.

The reason why we do not apply it to the thousand years is because that is in a different context. The phrase "Thousand Years" in Greek and the historical context of Revelation simply means "As long as needed." It was a term for teachers. They could either teach something standing on one leg, meaning a very quick concise answer. Or else the teacher could teach for a thousand years, meaning taking the time needed to completely understand the topic. The thousand years means all the time needed for Satan and the demons to realize what they have become and what they did, and for us up in heaven to have our questions answered.

If when we go to heaven and are there for 890 years and Lucifer and the demons realize what they have become and what they have done, and all of our questions are fully answered Jesus will not look at his watch and say "We still have another 110 years, are you sure you don't have any more questions? If not then we can twiddle our thumbs for these next 110 years" On the other hand if we have been there 999 years and it's the New Years Eve and we are still asking questions Jesus isn't going to look at his watch and say "Hurry up we only have a couple of hours left"

I hope this helps

[Tom Wetmore]

What are the most common denominators in this denomination?

Not too sure what is the anticipated type answers, but I sort of thought this was in the opposite direction as most of the answers, more like what we all would hold in common or what we as Adventists hold in common with all other Christians.

Pam's alternate list was going in the direction of the common denominator beliefs we have with others, although not with all.

Presumably those points of the Apostle's Creed are the common denominators we have with other Christians, that which we would all agree.

Looking among Adventists, even though leadership may assume that the 28 FB are our common denominators, drilling down into a number of them clearly demonstrate significant differences of interpretation and the details.

My sense is that on a basic level our name holds pretty much our only real common denominators, the Sabbath and the expected return of Christ. While up until recently I would have assumed our state of the dead belief too, I have heard a. Umber of members expressing more traditional thoughts about dead loved ones being in heaven or with Jesus or similar expressions.

[Woody]

Quote:

Not too sure what is the anticipated type answers, but I sort of thought this was in the opposite direction as most of the answers, more like what we all would hold in common or what we as Adventists hold in common with all other Christians.

My thought also Tom. That was where I thought of things going. But, I usually word my posts so that they can go any direction people want it to go. So - any direction is fine.

[Gail]

I would like to think that within the denomination the common denominator would be our love, for Jesus, for man and for God's word.

:)

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I would like to think that within the denomination the common denominator would be our love, for Jesus, for man and for God's word.

I would like to think these are common denominators for all born-again Christianity; not just SDA's.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

since the question in the OP didn't refer to any other denomination, I figured the common denominators would be described as those specific things which make the SDA church unique... perhaps I misunderstood..

[Sojourner]

The only unique doctrine that the SDA holds in comparison to other churches would be the 1844 Investigative Judgement doctrine.

Every other SDA teaching comes from a source that pre dates the existence of the SDA. Blend the Seventh Day Baptist, Methodist and Assemblies of God denominations and you come out with something similar to the SDA.

[Kevin H]

Other churches are starting to develop a doctrine of Judgment and some of them are studying our Investigative Judgment to develop their doctrine.

[LifeHiscost]

I would like to think that within the denomination the common denominator would be our love, for Jesus, for man and for God's word.

Loving those who respond favorably to love, to me is just an extension of loving God.

"Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."Matt 25:40 KJV

When I watch the world news there is no doubt in my mind I need grace to be civil to the many.

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Sojourner]

Other churches are starting to develop a doctrine of Judgment and some of them are studying our Investigative Judgment to develop their doctrine.

The Salvation Army have had this one since 1865 "Doctrine no 11. "We believe in the immortality of the soul; in the resurrection of the body; in the general judgement at the end of the world; in the eternal happiness of the righteous; and in the endless punishment of the wicked.

Southern Baptist Convention "X. Last Things - God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.

Christian & Missionary Alliance - "There shall be a bodily resurrection of the just and of the unjust; for the former, a resurrection unto life;(30) for the latter, a resurrection unto judgment.

These are examples of a general judgement, yet the 1844 Investigative Judgement is in far more detail than this with specific years and time periods given.

[Kevin H]

Yes indeed. It is a shame that it is also one of the misunderstood. The big problem is that people try to place it in the traditional forensic model with a literal fire punishing (either eternal or short) hell.

It fits in with focus on answering the issues of the Great Controversy and having a clearer understanding as to who God is, especially when hell fire is understood as the visible, glorious beautiful, thrilling, physical presence of God with people having 2 responses to this glorious manifestation.

[LifeHiscost]

[debbym]

I would like to think that within the denomination the common denominator would be our love, for Jesus, for man and for God's word.

 

The Spirit of Jesus, the expression of His character, unique ion the SDA Church, taught in writings of EG White's gift.  We are gifted by these works,  by being educated  to  what the Christian life entails. 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The Spirit of Jesus, the expression of His character, unique ion the SDA Church, taught in writings of EG White's gift.  We are gifted by these works,  by being educated  to  what the Christian life entails. 

 

Debby, could you expound on how the Spirit of Jesus and unique expression of His character is specific to the Adventist church?  I'm really curious as to how that might be different from other Christian denominations...

[debbym]

Debby, could you expound on how the Spirit of Jesus and unique expression of His character is specific to the Adventist church?  I'm really curious as to how that might be different from other Christian denominations...

 

i cannot say what is specific to any given individual in any sda church individually or corporately.

 

the gift of the Spirit of prophecy within the SDA Church makes a difference in an individual basis and each person may say what they means to them.

 

before Jesus came the first time the  incarnate Savior, a prophet was sent to prepare the way.  today before Jesus comes the second time a Prophet has been sent to prepare the way.

 

we in this time of earths history before the return of Christ, we are facing a time and events that have never occurred before, and messages have been provided to prepare, guide, and protect  God's people individually and cooperatively.

 

personally for me, these volumes have taught me the vulnerability i have in my humanity to the power of selfishness, and the measure of deeper humility i need to walk in to keep my connection to Christ.  I do not believe i could have comprehended this without the gift of the messages given in the Spirit of prophecy writings.

 

this is one of many things i did not find in my experiences in other Christian denominations.

[JoeMo]

Hi debbym,

I agree with your post, but my experience with some other denominations (or non-denominations), people have had similar reactions to similar messages. They have studied the prophecies,and have experienced the grace of Jesus.  They have the gift of prophecy; but they aren't EGW.  The spirit is bringing together people from all denominations who want to reflect His righteousness, do His works, and join Him in the Kingdom at His coming.

[debbym]

Hi debbym,

I agree with your post, but my experience with some other denominations (or non-denominations), people have had similar reactions to similar messages. They have studied the prophecies,and have experienced the grace of Jesus.  They have the gift of prophecy; but they aren't EGW.  The spirit is bringing together people from all denominations who want to reflect His righteousness, do His works, and join Him in the Kingdom at His coming.

 

i believe anyone who responds to the Spirit of God will come into line with this also JoeMo.  This same Spirit inspired EG White.   Just as the message in the Scriptures is unable to be comprehended without the Spirit, so any Christian witness is unable to be valued and the gift in the Spirit of prophecy the same.

 

unveiling the vulnerability of humanity to the power of sin, and the utter dependence upon the power of Christ to stand "in the evil time" is content i have wonderfully  amplified  by EG White.

 

To comprehend something of  the depth of human futility in producing any righteousness and to make themselves Holy before God, and the way of faith in Christ and the power of Christ in the life the faith alone to know and do God's will, is not common in Christianity.

[JoeMo]

To comprehend something of  the depth of human futility in producing any righteousness and to make themselves Holy before God, and the way of faith in Christ and the power of Christ in the life the faith alone to know and do God's will, is not common in Christianity.

 

I agree - it is not common; but neither is it a characteristic unique to Adventism.  There are also non-Adventists that share this denominator.

[Lauralea]

Ideally the particular attributes of this church would be having faith that God can and will transform us by His power to make us holy (not by our own power and not not at all), 

A belief in the judgement, and that the (investigative judgement "must begin with the house of God" and that we live in the judgement hour

A belief that the dead know not anything and in the Second Coming as being literal visible and universal, as well as the Third coming (resurrection of wicked and executive judgement)

Final destruction of the wicked and no ever burning hell

The Sabbath, while not unique, is a distinguishing feature and is not common among Christians

A belief that since our body is the temple of God we should take care of it, as well as not defile it with illegal drugs, tobacco, alcohol and unclean meats.

A belief Jesus died for my sins and will accept me as I come to him and cleanse me from all unrighteousness (many Christians believe this but many do not)

The gift of prophecy- a consistent understanding of Bible prophecy, as well as a prophet. "Your sons and daughters will prophesy" 

These are not all exclusive to our denomination, but collectively I believe they are some of the things that help to describe us.

[Lauralea]

The passing of the time in 1844 was a period of great events, opening to our astonished eyes the cleansing of the sanctuary transpiring in heaven, and having decided relation to God’s people upon the earth, [also] the first and second angels’ messages and the third, unfurling the banner on which was inscribed, “The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.” One of the landmarks under this message was the temple of God, seen by His truth-loving people in heaven, and the ark containing the law of God. The light of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment flashed its strong rays in the pathway of the transgressors of God’s law. The nonimmortality of the wicked is an old landmark. I can call to mind 31nothing more that can come under the head of the old landmarks. All this cry about changing the old landmarks is all imaginary. {CW 30.2}

 

I forgot to mention that the judgement hour message and the Sabbath are tied in with the cleansing of the sanctuary and how originally sudying the time prophecies of Daniel led to understanding we were living in the last days and the time we especially need to be putting away all sin. Also the three angels messages- I mentioned the fearing God and glorifying Him because the judgement hour is come, but not the Babylon is fallen, come out of the churches that teach false doctrine, and the third angels message, that those who do not receive the seal of God being sanctified by Him and cleansed by His grace will receive the mark of the beast signifying apostacy because they fear the religio political beast power that will force others to either receive the mark or be killed and will out of fear not keep God's Sabbath.

[Woody]

If we are to put away all sin ....

God will have to do it for me.

I sure ain't.

I am sinful - pure and simple.

Nothing good in me.

Exceptin' Jesus.

It really is out of our hands. If God wants it done -- HE will supply the Holy Spirit without measure.

Then the end will come.