America with No Christians

[Aliensanctuary]

What would the USA be like with no Christians and no Christian religions, ever? Would the people of this nation suffer under atheistic communist dictatorships, being fed a steady diet of lies by a government greased with bribes? Would there be no concept of individual freedom of choice, but rather, total subjugation by the bureaucratic machine?

 

I suspect this nation owes much to the Christian ethic of honesty, compassion, and respect for others, their property, and their lives.

[hch]

Is there a difference between having "no Christians" compared to those who are Christian in "name only"?

 

Many of the problems in America are caused under the guise of Christianity.

[CoAspen]

Hmmmmm......You only get the good stuff if a nation/group is Christian but bad stuff if a nation/group is atheistic???

 

I think that would be a failure to understand that values are not particular to one group or another. A rather generous painting with the brush of all others who do not agree with ones own personal belief system.

[LifeHiscost]

What would the USA be like with no Christians and no Christian religions, ever? Would the people of this nation suffer under atheistic communist dictatorships, being fed a steady diet of lies by a government greased with bribes? Would there be no concept of individual freedom of choice, but rather, total subjugation by the bureaucratic machine?

 

I suspect this nation owes much to the Christian ethic of honesty, compassion, and respect for others, their property, and their lives.

Having read how civilizations of the past (from the Bible record), met their demise, there is no doubt in my mind, America is well on it's way to what happens to a nation that forgets Who is responsible for their wellbeing.

 

For wisdom and power belong to Him. 21"It is He who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings; He gives wisdom to wise men And knowledge to men of understanding. Daniel 2

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Aliensanctuary]

Now there is a problem when any religion dominates the government of a nation, which no religion should because it breeds intolerance of other religions, sometime to the extreme, that is, death to those who belong to another religion.

[JoeMo]

Having read how civilizations of the past (from the Bible record), met their demise, there is no doubt in my mind, America is well on it's way to what happens to a nation that forgets Who is responsible for their wellbeing.

While this may (or may not) be true, we always have to remember that - if it does happen - it is the consequences of America's actions; not God actively punishing the U.S.  God already doled out the punishment for sin when Jesus was crucified.  Example - Bankruptcy or economic collapse is the consequence of - not the punishment for -  spending more money than you take in.

[LifeHiscost]

While this may (or may not) be true, we always have to remember that - if it does happen - it is the consequences of America's actions; not God actively punishing the U.S.  God already doled out the punishment for sin when Jesus was crucified.  Example - Bankruptcy or economic collapse is the consequence of - not the punishment for -  spending more money than you take in.

Having just a short time ago suffered some rather serious losses as a result of hasty investment decisions, your assessment is like rubbing salt in the wound. Sometimes those are  necessary for God's active participation for the sake of our continuing progress in the right direction. 

 

19'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. Rev 3:19

 

…6FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." 7It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.… Rev 12 Bold theirs' underlined mine  LHC

 

I suppose it's problematic as to whether we would call the discipline consequence or punishment, maybe defined by whether we are sons or illegitimate children.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[lazarus]

What would the USA be like with no Christians and no Christian religions, ever?

There would be millions of Native Americans still alive.

[JoeMo]

Having just a short time ago suffered some rather serious losses as a result of hasty investment decisions, your assessment is like rubbing salt in the wound. Sometimes those are  necessary for God's active participation for the sake of our continuing progress in the right direction. 

Ouch! I know that feeling. I'll be working until I'm at least 70 to make up what I lost in poor investment decisions before I can retire.

[LifeHiscost]

There would be millions of Native Americans still alive.

There would also be numberless immigrants still in Europe religiously enslaved with no hope other than the same God that revealed in His Word that He would raise up a people out of the earth. Had the native American Indians been serving Jehovah God, He would have made room for both them and the immigrants, without bloodshed. However that's the history of the world from the inception of sin. We need to trust the Creator if we wish to end up on the winning team, individually or corporately. 

 

16"Let his mind be changed from that of a man And let a beast's mind be given to him, And let seven periods of time pass over him. 17"This sentence is by the decree of the angelic watchers And the decision is a command of the holy ones, In order that the living may know That the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind, And bestows it on whom He wishes And sets over it the lowliest of men." Daniel 4

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[lazarus]

There would also be numberless immigrants still in Europe religiously enslaved with no hope other than the same God that revealed in His Word that He would raise up a people out of the earth.

 

Immigrants religiously enslaved? What do you mean?

[lazarus]

 Had the native American Indians been serving Jehovah God, He would have made room for both them and the immigrants, without bloodshed.

So you are saying that it was the Native American's fault for being massacred?

[LifeHiscost]

So you are saying that it was the Native American's fault for being massacred?

When one serves other gods than the Creator God, life takes many turns that don't reflect the care God has for all of humanity. Just as there would not have been near the "success" in early American slavery without the cooperation of those in Africa among their own who placed personal wealth above love for their brothers, as also Germany when the German white Lutherans turned a blind eye when Jews were being taken advantage of by the Nazi regime prior and during wwii. Look back into Bible times and Pharoahs treatment of the Israelites. Do you see any parallels?

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

 

Immigrants religiously enslaved? What do you mean?

Are you unacquainted with the fact that European immigrants were fleeing religious persecution when they sailed from their original country to find a place where they could worship as their conscience led them. Even that needed tweaking when Roger Williams and others of like mind left the early settlements to establish Rhode Island, a more truly free state where the religious or even irreligious found the freedom for which they were looking.

" The more things change the more they stay the same."

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

 Had the native American Indians been serving Jehovah God, He would have made room for both them and the immigrants, without bloodshed. However that's the history of the world from the inception of sin. We need to trust the Creator if we wish to end up on the winning team, individually or corporately. 

 

 

 

That's an incredibly naive statement.  

 

By and large, the Native American tribes worshipped the Great Almighty, the Great Spirit, which was a lot more like the God of the Bible than the "God" of many Christians.

[bonnie]

That's an incredibly naive statement.  

 

By and large, the Native American tribes worshipped the Great Almighty, the Great Spirit, which was a lot more like the God of the Bible than the "God" of many Christians.

What or who the Native American tribes worshipped was not the God of the Bible.

This was not a  christian utopia till the white man came. Some tribes even practiced slavery before the white settlers arrived. They fought and killed for land they wanted and stole from other tribes. It is ludicrous to say that "christian settlers"  killed ten million native americans. Whatever the  number killed I would like someone to show where that number was killed by "christians" rather than those wanting something that wasn't theirs or fear or dislike of those different than themselves.

This constant blaming of one group for the  evil of the past is getting really tiresome.

It is the same with slavery.  Mortality rates of slaves was actually higher during the capture and transporting to slave ships than on that miserable journey itself. The  African slave trade would not have been possible  without the corporation,greed and cruelty of Africans themselves.There  was  also an estimated 6 million africans killed in tribal wars   

 

It is tough to understand how anyone,regardless of culture or skin color, could practice the hideous acts and consider it right, But they did. 

Anyone that has or does identify with being christian  is painted with the same  brush.However that seems only to apply when referring to christians. When cruel and vicious acts are committed by those that identify as Muslims there is a rush by many here to make certain it is understood it is only a few bad apples,Most Muslims follow a religion of peace. Mustn't blame the Muslim religion,but make sure it is understood how awful christianity is for what so me have done in that name

[Tom Wetmore]

http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/native-americans.htmlBonnie, the spirit of denial and the current trend of some conservative "historians" to systematically rewrite history to gloss over the inconvenient truths of the our less than honorable past in dealing with native americans and slavery is also getting really tiresome. It is almost as ridiculous as the those who try to deny the Nazi attempted extermination of the Jews.

Facing the real truth of our sordid past is a means of avoiding history repeating itself. And yes, it was predominantly Christians that came to North America (and South America) and took native lands and systematically killed and herded the native americans into reservations and committed all manner of atrocities. What is generally regarded as a horrible of act of scalping done by the Indians was actually started by the invaders and by some accounts was the origin of the terms "redskins" that were collected of the killed native americans to collect a bounty.

You do realize your claim of 6 million killed in Africans killed in tribal wars is as much a broad estimate and subject to debate as your claim against the estimate of the number of native americans as being ludicrous. The Europeans kept records of their own dead. Most indigoes populations didn't. But the 10 million figure is actually on the low end of estimates. See http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/native-americans.html

[bonnie]

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comanche

 

 

How interesting. No one has claimed the less than honorable past does  not exist. It has beyond a doubt.

 

 

Post-contact, the Comanches were hunter-gatherers with a horse culture. There may have been as many as 45,000 Comanches in the late 18th century.^[2] They were the dominant tribe on the Southern Plains and often took captives from weaker tribes during warfare, selling them as slaves to the Spanish and later Mexican settlers. They also took thousands of captives from the Spanish, Mexican, and American settlers. That isn't rewriting history it simply is a fact of recorded history. It doesn't make what took place by the white settlers more honorable.   Nor was it an invention of the white settlers,christian or otherwise.Slavery and conquering other lands  has been with us since biblical times. How or why anyone could believe that was right or justify it,I have no idea.But it obviously was the culture and the mindset of the times.Prior to the white settlers if a tribe wanted what another tribe had,they took it. Just as the Ojibwe ran the Sioux from MN land.   Just as the Comanche over ran the tribes in the area they wanted. I don't think they said please and thank you.     

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually I believe it was the French that began the scalping. While the first/very early settlers did come because of "religious freedom" all those that followed were not christian. They came from all walks of life and for a multitude of reasons.The herding onto reservations was done by government,not a religious sect. Of course atrocities were committed,I have never said otherwise. How anyone could justify that or convince themselves that was right and just is beyond  comprehension,but obviously they did.

Nothing new there or unique to white settlers.

Our history cannot be changed,but neither can the history of others that committed the same act and didn't cry foul until someone bigger and stronger came along.

Perhaps you know the type of person you would have been,being raised into that mindset and culture.Maybe you would have been the one to say it was wrong. You don't know that. Had I been born a Comanche maybe I would have been the one to rally against their lifestyle of taking slaves and selling them.Be nice to think so,but doubtful. How will God judge those involved in these horrible acts at that time? Maybe you know,I confess I don't. Maybe as often stated on this forum,unless  the one committing these acts was convicted by the Holy Spirit it was wrong,he was not committing a sin.

I don't know how many ways you want it said,mistreating anyone,taking what you want by force and thinking to own another is wrong,Regardless of the color of your skin. Did the white settlers commit all the above,beyond a doubt. Did they come to this pristine wilderness,where all walked hand in  hand thru the prairie grass? NO. Did they kill,steal,take captives and sell them as slaves,YES,just as the white settlers now did to them.

 

 

That may be as neither of us is privy to the exact number.Nor do I care.

Now tell me, which is the most guilty party  concerning the slave trade.Those that provided the slaves to be sold,captured from other tribes,for greed and power,or those that transported the slaves provided for greed and power,or those that purchased the slaves for greed and power? One would have had a hard time being lucrative without the willingness and greed of the other.

You may know how God will judge and who He holds responsible,and those not guilty because the Holy Spirit had not  convicted them of their sin,I don't.

Maybe you think you can rewrite history but this is pretty well documented. White settlers did terrible,horrible acts against those they felt inferior,Africans did terrible horrible acts against other Africans for greed and power.Native American  tribes committed  terrible acts against other tribes for same reasons.

Not one race or country has clean hands,how the culture of that day will be seen in the day of judgement remains to be seen,unless you have it all worked out.

The Slave Trade

 

This building on the coast of Africa once was a headquarters for the British slave trade. (Wikimedia Commons)

Buying Slaves in Africa

How did an African become a slave? At first, white slave traders simply went on kidnapping raids, but this proved too dangerous for the Europeans. Instead, they established hundreds of forts and trading stations along Africa’s West Coast. Local African rulers and black merchants delivered captured people to these trading posts to sell as slaves to European ship captains.

About 50 percent of the slaves were taken as prisoners during the frequent tribal wars occurring among the West African kingdoms. Another 30 percent became slaves as punishment for crimes or indebtedness. The remainder were kidnapped by black slave traders.

An African trader usually transported his slaves to a coastal trading station by binding them around the neck with leather thongs, each slave about a yard distance from each other. There were often 30 or 40 in a string. The factor living at the trading station negotiated a price between the African slave trader and the slave ship captain.

After making a deal with the factor, the traders transported the slaves in large canoes to the ship, riding at anchor just beyond the thundering surf. The factor supervised the branding and loading of the slaves onto the ship. For land-bound Africans who had never seen it before, the ocean was a terrifying sight. Some slaves tried to escape by jumping into the sea, only to be devoured by sharks.

 

 

[bonnie]

I don't understand how the white settlers condoned or rationalized their acts. There isn't any dispute as to their actions,but to make

those acts a invention unique to white settlers I don't understand either. They acted in what was the predictable and accepted manner of the era they lived in. I can't place myself back there and see doing the same. 

But who knows. Taking from those weaker and exploiting those you deemed inferior to you was as common  as the sun coming up in the morning. 

The white settlers are blamed for bringing these atrocities to the Americas,when these same atrocities were well established and accepted by the inhabitants prior to that.

Slavery was also an accepted practice,as wrong as slavery is. Africans had as much to do with the slavery as did the slave ship captains or those that purchased the slaves.

[CoAspen]

We seem to have strayed a bit from the original topic...but....some of the comments seem to be akin to blaming the person being raped in order to mitigate the act.

 

To deny that much wrong has happened under the banner of Christianity/God/Christ/Benevolent Deity, is to ignore sins effects. Saying that atheists would/could/did make the world worse is also ludicrous. Those that claim to believe in a Devine God share equal blame to the any others for the continuation of wrongs.

 

One might , at the least, expect Christians to have an attitude of acceptance of their own behavior and not try to mitigate it by pointing to others.

[bonnie]

 

 

If the person that was being raped was as guilty of raping and molesting others that might hold true.That is not what I said. When a nation/tribe/race have lived and prospered by the very actions they then condemn it is a little self serving.

 

 

Claiming and being are two different issues.

Where did you see denial that much wrong has been done by those that identify or  claim to be "christian"? It is the desire to blame all the ills of the world on   christianity. The religion of Islam has slaughtered untold numbers both past and present in the name of their religion.Many of you here make a rush to condemn those saying so and making sure it is to be understood that it is only those that have hijacked this "peaceful religion". The same respect/consideration is not afforded christians.

 

 

 

It isn't a question of blaming anyone for the actions of the white settlers. Each is accountable for their own actions. Culture and the era they lived played a large part in the actions of all. For some it was just blame greed and power.

[lazarus]

I don't understand how the white settlers condoned or rationalized their acts. .

 

They dehumanized and demonized their adversaries. Early 19th century psychology provided the science. We see the same today as our "enemies" are dehumanized to justify their destruction. How else do people who believe in "love your enemy" end up dropping bombs on them?

[lazarus]

 

 

Are you unacquainted with the fact that European immigrants were fleeing religious persecution when they sailed from their original country to find a place where they could worship as their conscience led them.

 

I'm always surprised how many can't or refuse to see the stunning irony of the freedom loving settlers wiping out millions of freedom loving indigenous people. America with no Christians would have left millions with the right to enjoy their inalienable rights, life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness.

[bonnie]

I'm always surprised how many can't or refuse to see the stunning irony of the freedom loving settlers wiping out millions of freedom loving indigenous people. America with no Christians would have left millions with the right to enjoy their inalienable rights, life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness.

Without christians in  America you still would have had the power and greed. Just as the Native American tribes warred with other tribes when they had the land,hunting grounds etc that was wanted. Along with freedom loving settlers there were many that came that were lawless,criminals fleeing punishment in their home country,those that really didn't give much thought to a God.

You also seem to think that crossing an ocean would magically transform decades  of conditioning and training in a much different mindset than we have today. Maybe it is to the shame of the US very ordinary people settled this land. Perhaps someone like yourself would have done much better using the knowledge of the late 20th and early 21st century at that time. But we had to settle for ordinary people that muddled thru and did some pretty extraordinary things.

 

Are you surprised that the freedom loving indigenous people made war on other tribes,took captives,sold them as slaves,plundered from  other freedom loving indigenous people? Committing atrocities on others seems to be a universal problem. There certainly was plenty of room before the settlers came that there shouldn't have been  any reason for war.

[bonnie]

They dehumanized and demonized their adversaries. Early 19th century psychology provided the science. We see the same today as our "enemies" are dehumanized to justify their destruction. How else do people who believe in "love your enemy" end up dropping bombs on them?

Interesting,altho it started before the early 19th century. What explanation do you have for the atrocities  by Africans on other Africans they captured for power and money and sold to the slave ships? Obviously they were not christians as we understand christians,so how does that fit with your  belief that Christianity is to blame?

Regardless of how many Africans lost their lives to other greedy and power hungry Africans,it does not whitewash slavery in America. You have this focus on one portion that has responsibility in that ,completely ignoring the shared equal guilt. Neither can be understood today by most of us.

The black race made it possible and profitable,for themselves and others.We took full advantage of their greed and cruelty with our own.

Native american tribes were guilty of atrocities against one another and this was considered normal. White atrocity is seen as something altogether different 

[LifeHiscost]

 if it does happen - it is the consequences of America's actions; not God actively punishing the U.S.  God already doled out the punishment for sin when Jesus was crucified.

 

 

And for all those willing to accept that substitute for their sin and guilt, Heaven is their home. It depends to whom we surrender ourselves.

 

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? Romans 6

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!