Who are the horsemen of the Apocalypse?

[hch]

Having been to multiple Revelation seminars I would think that I understood the horsemen of the Apocalypse. But none of the presenters linked the horsemen to Daniel? Why not?

 

 "Prophecy has been fulfilling, line upon line. The more firmly we stand under the banner of the third angel's message, the more clearly shall we understand the prophecy of Daniel; for the Revelation is the supplement of Daniel. The more fully we accept the light presented by the Holy Spirit through the consecrated servants of God, the deeper and surer, even as the eternal throne, will appear the truths of ancient prophecy; we shall be assured that men of God spake as they were moved upon by the Holy Ghost. Men must themselves be under the influence of the Holy Spirit in order to understand the Spirit's utterances through the prophets. These messages were given, not for those that uttered the prophecies, but for us who are living amid the scenes of their fulfillment."  {2SM 114.2}

 

 

[hch]

Doesn't anybody know who the horsemen of the Apocalypse are in Revelation as the book of Revelation explains and supplements Daniel?

[phkrause]

I take it than that you don't know?

[Kevin H]

Actually the horsemen come from other parts of the Old Testament, more specifically the book of Zachariah.  Not everything in Revelation comes from Daniel. Daniel is a major source, but Revelation uses other parts of the Old Testament, portions of what became the Jewish Mishnah, and passages and structures from comedy theater plays that were popular in John's day.

[hch]

I take it than that you don't know?

 

I know what we teach in our Revelation Seminars,

but I don't see anything about the 4 horsemen that is being taught to supplement Daniel.

[hch]

Actually the horsemen come from other parts of the Old Testament, more specifically the book of Zachariah.  Not everything in Revelation comes from Daniel. Daniel is a major source, but Revelation uses other parts of the Old Testament, portions of what became the Jewish Mishnah, and passages and structures from comedy theater plays that were popular in John's day.

 

So should the horsemen in Revelation expand and explain anything in Daniel when Revelation supplements Daniel?

 

There are obvious similarities between Daniel 2 & 7 and the horsemen. Are you suggesting that those similarities are coincidental, but not supplemental to Daniel?

[hch]

So should the horsemen in Revelation expand and explain anything in Daniel when Revelation supplements Daniel?

 

There are obvious similarities between Daniel 2 & 7 and the horsemen. Are you suggesting that those similarities are coincidental, but not supplemental to Daniel?

 

"All that God has in prophetic history specified to be fulfilled in the past has been, and all that is yet to come in its order will be. Daniel, God's prophet, stands in his place. John stands in his place. In the Revelation the Lion of the tribe of Judah has opened to the students of prophecy the book of Daniel, and thus is Daniel standing in his place. He bears his testimony, that which the Lord revealed to him in vision of the great and solemn events which we must know as we stand on the very threshold of their fulfillment."  {17MR 10.2}

[hch]

Actually the horsemen come from other parts of the Old Testament, more specifically the book of Zachariah.  Not everything in Revelation comes from Daniel. Daniel is a major source, but Revelation uses other parts of the Old Testament, portions of what became the Jewish Mishnah, and passages and structures from comedy theater plays that were popular in John's day.

 

True but in Revelation we read of the unrolling of the scroll. Revelation 5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

 

"There in His open hand lay the book, the roll of the history of God's providences, the prophetic history of nations and the church. Herein was contained the divine utterances, His authority, His commandments, His laws, the whole symbolic counsel of the Eternal, and the history of all ruling powers in the nations. In symbolic language was contained in that roll the influence of every nation, tongue, and people from the beginning of earth's history to its close."  {9MR 7.2}

 

Does the book being opened in Heaven have the history of Babylon and America?

[Kevin H]

As I understand (and was taught) Revelation 4 and 5 is a picture of God's throne with symbols of the trinity. Around the throne are the 24 elders. There are apparently at least 3 concepts in the 24 elders. One that I have heard about in passing in a Sabbath School study tape by Jim Ayers, but not have heard the presentation is something to do with Passover.  Anyway, the other two parts are:

 

2. the Sanhedrin could have a quorum of  only 24 of the 70 elders. 23 plus the high priest. In the days of Jesus, 23 Sadducees and the high priest would often meet with no Pharisees, form a group of 24 elders and have a Kangaroo Court. Frequently to stop someone who they saw as growing too popular with the people. While they could not crucify people for political crimes, they could stone people to death for certain religious crimes. They worked with the governor. If they thought they had a better chance at convicting the person on civil law the Governor would take the case. If they thought it would be better to bring it on religious law the 24 elders would take the case. Now if the person was too popular they would not stone them to death but turn them over to the governor to be crucified. The popular understanding of "Cursed is anyone who dies on a tree" was that only God's enemies would ever die on a tree and they could ruin a reputation by having them hang on a tree just as surly as rumors about people having affairs can ruin reputations today. The trial of Jesus was probably among the 24 Sadducee elders with no Pharisees present.   John saw those 24 elders give a false witness of Jesus. Now John sees their heavenly counterparts giving a true witness for Jesus.

 

3. The 24 elders represent the testimony of the 12 tribes and 12 apostles, or the Old and New Testament.

 

The 4 living beasts come from the Pentateuch. They were the animals represented by the four sides of the Hebrews in the wilderness traveling to the promised land. Thus they represent the church traveling through the wilderness of life on earth to go to the promised land.

 

So we have a picture of God communicating through the Bible to the church while we are on exodus towards the promised land.

 

However, due to the sin problem, creatures were broken from the life giver. Some in rebellion, others in observation as to whether or not God can be trusted, a probation that did not close until the cross. Had Jesus failed, it would have proved the God was unworthy of our trust. It would have resulted in life in the universe coming to an end.

 

I understand the scroll to be the history of the world from the cross on. History would have ended there if there was not someone worthy to have history continue, I. e. open the seals and unroll the scroll. Because Jesus was faithful and died the unfallen knew that God was indeed trustworthy and that they did not trust him in vain. And taking the results of sin for the rebels opens up salvation for those who choose to repent. Therefore the lamb is worthy to have history continue.

[hch]

As I understand (and was taught) Revelation 4 and 5 is a picture of God's throne with symbols of the trinity. Around the throne are the 24 elders. There are apparently at least 3 concepts in the 24 elders. One that I have heard about in passing in a Sabbath School study tape by Jim Ayers, but not have heard the presentation is something to do with Passover.  Anyway, the other two parts are:

 

2. the Sanhedrin could have a quorum of  only 24 of the 70 elders. 23 plus the high priest. In the days of Jesus, 23 Sadducees and the high priest would often meet with no Pharisees, form a group of 24 elders and have a Kangaroo Court. Frequently to stop someone who they saw as growing too popular with the people. While they could not crucify people for political crimes, they could stone people to death for certain religious crimes. They worked with the governor. If they thought they had a better chance at convicting the person on civil law the Governor would take the case. If they thought it would be better to bring it on religious law the 24 elders would take the case. Now if the person was too popular they would not stone them to death but turn them over to the governor to be crucified. The popular understanding of "Cursed is anyone who dies on a tree" was that only God's enemies would ever die on a tree and they could ruin a reputation by having them hang on a tree just as surly as rumors about people having affairs can ruin reputations today. The trial of Jesus was probably among the 24 Sadducee elders with no Pharisees present.   John saw those 24 elders give a false witness of Jesus. Now John sees their heavenly counterparts giving a true witness for Jesus.

 

3. The 24 elders represent the testimony of the 12 tribes and 12 apostles, or the Old and New Testament.

 

The 4 living beasts come from the Pentateuch. They were the animals represented by the four sides of the Hebrews in the wilderness traveling to the promised land. Thus they represent the church traveling through the wilderness of life on earth to go to the promised land.

 

So we have a picture of God communicating through the Bible to the church while we are on exodus towards the promised land.

 

However, due to the sin problem, creatures were broken from the life giver. Some in rebellion, others in observation as to whether or not God can be trusted, a probation that did not close until the cross. Had Jesus failed, it would have proved the God was unworthy of our trust. It would have resulted in life in the universe coming to an end.

 

I understand the scroll to be the history of the world from the cross on. History would have ended there if there was not someone worthy to have history continue, I. e. open the seals and unroll the scroll. Because Jesus was faithful and died the unfallen knew that God was indeed trustworthy and that they did not trust him in vain. And taking the results of sin for the rebels opens up salvation for those who choose to repent. Therefore the lamb is worthy to have history continue.

 

Kevin, that is interesting.

 

But the Spirit of prophecy said "In symbolic language was contained in that roll the influence of every nation, tongue, and people from the beginning of earth's history to its close."  {9MR 7.2}

 

Thus EGW states that all the history of the world is portrayed in the unrolling of the scroll, not just post-Calvary.

 

how does this affect your view of the 4-horsemen? Or does it?

[Kevin H]

It is Calvary that still made pre Calvary possible, as shown in the Sacrificial service that dates back to Adam and Eve. 

[hch]

It is Calvary that still made pre Calvary possible, as shown in the Sacrificial service that dates back to Adam and Eve. 

 

Ok. So the horsemen in Revelation are pre-Calvary and post Calvary?

 

Since all the world's history from creation to the close of time are revealed in the unrolled scroll, who are the 4-horsemen revealed in Daniel that Revelation explains in the endtime? And what does Daniel say about them?

[hch]

Are they individuals or kingdoms?

[JoeMo]

Are they individuals or kingdoms?

... or events?  Here is my take - or my opinion. 

 

The 1st horseman (and the first seal) is the revealing of the AntiChrist as he comes forth to conquer the earth.  The real Christ, riding his whit horse, shows up at the end of the Tribulation (See Rev. 19:11-16)

The 2nd horseman (and second seal) is global warfare.  That is how a conquerer conquers - through warfare.

The 3rd horseman ( and 3rd seal) is economic collapse and/or hyperinflation - an expected outcome from global warfare and chaos.

The 4th horseman (and 4th seal) is disease, famine, persecution- an expected outcome of earlier war, economic chaos, famine and pestilence. 

 

Note that these four horsemen/seals are events caused by man's increasing inhumanity towards his fellow man - nothing supernatural here.

 

Note also how this chronology correlates well with Matthew 24, where Jesus Himself plots events:

 

1. " For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray".

2. "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"

3. "and there will be famines..."

4. "“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake."

 

Just my opinion.  Nothing dogmatic here.

[hch]

... or events?  Here is my take - or my opinion. 

 

The 1st horseman (and the first seal) is the revealing of the AntiChrist as he comes forth to conquer the earth.  The real Christ, riding his whit horse, shows up at the end of the Tribulation (See Rev. 19:11-16)

The 2nd horseman (and second seal) is global warfare.  That is how a conquerer conquers - through warfare.

The 3rd horseman ( and 3rd seal) is economic collapse and/or hyperinflation - an expected outcome from global warfare and chaos.

The 4th horseman (and 4th seal) is disease, famine, persecution- an expected outcome of earlier war, economic chaos, famine and pestilence. 

 

Note that these four horsemen/seals are events caused by man's increasing inhumanity towards his fellow man - nothing supernatural here.

 

Note also how this chronology correlates well with Matthew 24, where Jesus Himself plots events:

 

1. " For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray".

2. "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"

3. "and there will be famines..."

4. "“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake."

 

Just my opinion.  Nothing dogmatic here.

 

JoeMo,

 

That is interesting.

Do you have any other Scriptures to consider?

 

Because as I read it:

 

Daniel is standing in his lot

Revelation is the supplement of Daniel

 

When the scroll is unrolled in Revelation it contains ALL the history of the earth (kings, kingdoms and churches)

 

So Revelation explains the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome

they appear to align with the horsemen

 

And Daniel 7:17 speaks of them being "4 kings from the earth" that are sealed until the endtime (12:4 & 9)

 

And the 4 horsemen are an endtime revelation of them

that is to be understood "by their fulfillment" when Daniel and Revelation have their final fulfillment

[The Searcher]

The seals are opened after the death of Christ.  We understand this since it is the lamb which had been slain, the lion of the tribe of Judah, who took up the scroll and opened it.  This should also suggest that the seals were opened upon the ascension of Christ to heaven, thus indicating that subsequent history was locked until the work of salvation was completed on Calvary.  Had Christ failed at Calvary, the history of the earth would have ended there.  Satan would have won.  But, because Christ was the victor, history could now roll forward.  The seven seals represent the seven remaining eras of Church history until the establishment of the throne upon the earth.  Beginning at the death of Christ and ending with the silence in heaven when the throne is moved.  Horses are representative of war, and Christ is declared the Lord of hosts in the old testament.  Christ is commander of both the heavenly and the earthly hosts.  Both Daniel (Daniel 8) and Revelation (Revelation 12) speak of the little horn and the dragon dragging down the stars and the hosts of heaven to the earth and trampling upon them shortly after the coming of Rome upon the eras of prophecy.  We can suggest that the horses represent the hosts of God going forth in order to conquer the earth.  The white horse represents the victorious  host which christianized the known world in a very short time.  This was followed by a host, represented by a red horse, which went forward and overcame under the persecutions of the Roman world.  This was followed by a black horse representing a time when the word of God, represented by the components of bread which were expensive, was kept from the masses, but the Holy Spirit, represented by the wine and oil, were freely available.  And finally the pale horse represents a church which no longer brings life, rather, it brings death.  The fifth seal presents a period of time when the hosts must suffer persecution.  Thus, the persecuted hosts are still with us today.  This persecution lasts until the openinng of the sixth seal which is the coming of Christ.  And the seventh seal represents the era when the throne of God is moved from heaven to the earth where it will be established forever.

 

These seals also parallel the seven churches of Revelation 1 - 3.  But they do not necessiarly represent the same periods in church history.  For instance the last three churches fall in the period of the fifth seal of persecution.  And the first four fall in the period of the four horses of war.  Thus, the first seal and church would represent roughly the time from the death of Christ to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.  The second seal and the second church would fill the period from 70 AD to 313 AD when the church grew under the persecution of Rome.  The third seal and church was the time of transition from a persecuted church to a church where scripture was replaced by tradition approximately from 313 to about the time of pope Leo in the early 500's.  The fourth seal and fourth church would be from the time of Leo to the time of Wycliffe in about 1330.  The fifth seal would be from the time of Wycliffe to the coming of Christ, whereas, the fifth church would be from Wycliffe to about 1834 and the coming of Miller and adventism, which occurred across the whole world.  The sixth church was from about 1834 to 1844 which was a time when love between brothers in the host of God was returned across the entire globe.  The seventh church is from 1844 to the time of Christ's return.  The seventh seal represents the period from the second coming of Christ to the establishment of the throne of God upon the earth. 

 

The idea of the seals falling during the time of tribulation is discarded because the tribulation is prior to the second coming of Christ, and the whole church and host of God in the earth must pass through the final phases of the fifth seal.  The seals represent the hosts of God upon the earth, whereas the churches represent the purity of the believers in regard to God's truth and the consequences of that purity or lack thereof.  One speaks to activity of the hosts, and the other speaks to its adherence to the truth as it is found through Christ. 

[JoeMo]

Searcher,

That is a very well thought-out interpretation.  I was blessed as I read it.

 

Do you think that prophecy could have layers - like an onion?  What I mean is, that some prophecies have various applications though history; but their ultimate fulfillment occurs at the time of the end.  For example, the story of Christ was portrayed several times in the OT before Christ actually came to earth. See the stories of Noah, Abraham, Melkizedek, and Joseph.  They all played roles as types of Christ in the OT.

[The Searcher]

I have considered the possibility and the message of the seven churches would apply both to specific church eras and also to the church as a cross-section.  I believe the message to each church represents the mean for that church period.  In other words, there are churches of all types throughout history and so the message is applicable to all periods of time.  But I believe the main message for each church speaks to the dominant characteristic of that church regarding truth for that specific time.  The seven seals are clearly a revelation of the church through time until the coming of Christ and the establishment of the throne on earth.  Also, the sealing of Revelation seven began in 1844 and will continue until the time of tribulation.  The seven trumpets and the seven plagues are events leading up to and during the time of tribulation as indicated by the fifth trumpet which keeps the sealed ones from the scourges of the fifth  trumpet.  The seven trumpets are the spiritual components that change with the withdrawal of the Holy Spirit from those who have made the final rejection of Christ and the freeing of Satan to take control of those who are no longer under the protection of the Holy Spirit.  The plagues relate to the secular world and the elements which bring about the battle of Armegeddon and the final establishment of the throne on earth.  Thus I see both the trumpets and the plagues as yet future with initiating elements which are necessary and lead up to the tribulation found  in trumpet 5 and Christ's coming in 6 and the sixth plague which straddles both the pre-millenial and post-millenial world, and the seventh trumpet, seal, and plague all looking forward to the move of the throne of heaven to the earth.

[hch]

I have considered the possibility and the message of the seven churches would apply both to specific church eras and also to the church as a cross-section...

 

Searcher,

 

Thank you for your posts.

 

They are the most interesting presentations that I have encountered in a long while.  But so much has been packed into your two posts that it will take some time to digest them and there are a few points that might need to be clarified. But this is a great beginning.

 

Some do miss the point that Christ is standing in the midst of the 7-candlesticks. And though they are presented one at a time, they are also coexisting in His presence.

[hch]

Searcher,

 

Let's look at some of what you have written. My comments are in blue.

 

The seals are opened after the death of Christ. (Great point)  We understand this since it is the lamb which had been slain, the lion of the tribe of Judah, who took up the scroll and opened it.  This should also suggest that the seals were opened upon the ascension of Christ to heaven, thus indicating that subsequent history was locked until the work of salvation was completed on Calvary. (In Revelation, a book that heavily quotes from other Scriptures, John was seeing Christ open the seals. Thus Christ was most likely revealing the subsequent meaning of Bible prophecies like Daniel that had been sealed until the time of the end.)

 

Had Christ failed at Calvary, the history of the earth would have ended there.  Satan would have won.  But, because Christ was the victor, history could now roll forward. 

 

The seven seals represent the seven remaining eras of Church history until the establishment of the throne upon the earth. (Do you have a Scriptural reference that the seals represent the seven remaining eras of Church history? The unrolling of the scroll in Revelation appears to reveal the history of rulers, kingdoms and the church. But you suggest limiting it to the church.) Beginning at the death of Christ and ending with the silence in heaven when the throne is moved. 

 

Horses are representative of war, and Christ is declared the Lord of hosts in the old testament.  Christ is commander of both the heavenly and the earthly hosts. Both Daniel (Daniel 8) and Revelation (Revelation 12) speak of the little horn and the dragon dragging down the stars and the hosts of heaven to the earth and trampling upon them shortly after the coming of Rome upon the eras of prophecy. We can suggest that the horses represent the hosts of God going forth in order to conquer the earth. (This suggested meaning is an assumption not clearly established by that which has been presented here).

 

The white horse represents the victorious host which christianized the known world in a very short time. (Since all of the world's history of its rulers, kingdoms, and the church is suggested in the unrolling of the scroll, the segment of history that you cite must be there also. But is that the segment of history that demands our attention in the endtime?)

 

 

This was followed by a host...

[The Searcher]

Dear HCH,

 

Remember, this is a thumbnail sketch.  I have a whole 35 page paper, which is in rough draft, covering these events.   Just to throw a tidbit out, Daniel always works in sequential order and repeats where every repetition fills out more of the former dreams and vision.  You will find Revelation also does repeats and overviews with each filling in more details.  Daniel is the key to Revelation.  But what most miss is that some of these same events are also covered in the other prophetic books such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah just to name a few.  One cannot limit themselves to just Daniel and Revelation. 

 

I have found that there are two main prophetic streams in both the old and new testaments, and both are keyed to Genesis 3.15.  The coming of Christ for the first time in order for his heel to be crushed by the serpent, and the coming of Christ a second time in order to crush the head of the serpent.  Thus when I see the woman dressed in white with a tiara of twelve stars who is pregnant and about to conceive, I go back to the promise of Genesis 3 that the woman's seed will cause enmity, his heel will be crushed, and he will crush the head.  Thus we have a seven headed dragon representing those major kingdoms who would try to destroy the seed and its offspring: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, pagan Rome, and papal Rome.   When these major kingdoms and the ten kingdoms of the ten horns pass from the scene then the seed will begin the crushing of the head. 

 

We need to remember Christ made a promise to Adam and Eve concerning their seed, and the Scriptures always return to these two prophetic lines.

 

Sincerely,

The searcher

[hch]

Dear Searcher,

 

Your comments were very interesting and much appreciated.

They took some studying to get at just what you were saying.

 

Though most of your presentation appears to be out-of-date,

I was doubly blessed while researching your post.

 

While pondering your reply, I encountered a mystery of which I had no idea:

I stumbled on the mystery, the solution, and so much more that will keep me busy for a while.

 

God is so wonderful!

 

Blessings to all of God's people

[JoeMo]

Searcher,

I really appreciate your inspired and well-thought out posts.  I'm not sure I agree with all that you post, but I appreciate your scholarship and modest/humble undertones.  Like hch, I find your propositions worth a deeper dive.

[hch]

... or events?  Here is my take - or my opinion. 

Note that these four horsemen/seals are events caused by man's increasing inhumanity towards his fellow man - nothing supernatural here...

Just my opinion.  Nothing dogmatic here.

​JoeMo,

sorry I missed your post. It is an interesting possibility.

I was working on my book and then when the updates for this forum came I apparently missed the instructions as to how to get back here. So for months, I had no idea what I was missing.