bonnie Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 So, in your mind anyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian? Really? There is no such thing as Christians in name only? All I have to do is say there is a God and I'm a Christian? Really? I can completely misrepresent God and I'm still a Christian? Really? I don't know where I got the idea but I heard that a Christian is a disciple of Christ. I heard that Jesus laid down some pretty tough restrictions on his followers. I heard that he said if you don't love Him more than even your closest family you're not worthy of Him. From where do you get your definition of who is a Christian? But the true christians on this forum take it further than that. To the request for examples of christians persecuting here Bravus assumes by his questions to that it would be christians. If a loon takes it in his head to shoot up a school or theater, before anything is known it is assumed it is a white right wing fanatic. Christians are given the "credit' first and foremost before there is anything known. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted October 17, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 17, 2014 No assumption necessary. Go back and read every story in the press in the past decade of a gay couple seeking to go to the prom, and see who was arrayed against them every single time. Please do try to stay in the real world. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 No assumption necessary. Go back and read every story in the press in the past decade of a gay couple seeking to go to the prom, and see who was arrayed against them every single time. Please do try to stay in the real world. I hope if I am ever persecuted it is by those that have the same definition of persecution that you have. I realize that a christian school is different than a public school but I would be very opposed to a gay couple attending a banquet at one of our schools. To you that would be persecution, for me while my sons were growing up I did not want them to accept the idea this was just as very acceptable lifestyle choice. There is a demand that those of us that believe this is deviant behavior to accept this as normal behavior. It is not. You have a problem with the belief of most christians, I have a problem with those that want me to accept all as normal, acceptable behavior. I don't believe that my sons would somehow be turned gay by a gay couple attending,but neither would I want them to condone that lifestyle. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Try being gay in a small town in middle America. Interesting that two of my best friends are a lesbian couple in their 70's. Always have lived in small towns,run successful businesses and have a wide variety of straight friends. When I was in high school they also had those pesky things called rules,probably to you persecution. A senior wanted to take his sophomore girlfriend,He was told no.Go alone,ask another girl for that evening or stay home. Another senior wanted to bring his girlfriend that was a student at another high school.He got the big no to. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 17, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 17, 2014 Just curious, Bonnie about your relationship with your two lesbian friends. Since you consider them to be among your best friends, how do you as a true Christian associate with them without others outside of your circle of friends drawing the conclusion that you are condoning their lifestyle? Or even thinking that you too are a lesbian? And how do you maintain that friendship with them and make it clear to them that as a true Christian you do not accept or condone their lifestyle? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 17, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 17, 2014 So, in your mind anyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian? Really? There is no such thing as Christians in name only? All I have to do is say there is a God and I'm a Christian? Really? I can completely misrepresent God and I'm still a Christian? Really? I don't know where I got the idea but I heard that a Christian is a disciple of Christ. I heard that Jesus laid down some pretty tough restrictions on his followers. I heard that he said if you don't love Him more than even your closest family you're not worthy of Him. From where do you get your definition of who is a Christian? Reading the hearts and minds of people is not one of my skills. Nor am I skilled at effectively determining where on a journey of faith and spiritual growth a person may be. When you look at someone claiming to be a Chrisitan exactly how do you do it? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Just curious, Bonnie about your relationship with your two lesbian friends. Since you consider them to be among your best friends, how do you as a true Christian associate with them without others outside of your circle of friends drawing the conclusion that you are condoning their lifestyle? Or even thinking that you too are a lesbian? And how do you maintain that friendship with them and make it clear to them that as a true Christian you do not accept or condone their lifestyle? Actually it is quite simple and has worked well for well over 30 years. They have known from the beginning that I disagree with the homosexual lifestyle.Just as I am sure they disagree with some of my behavior.They don't make condoning their lifestyle a condition of friendship. Unlike several of the christians here they don't believe that because I think that particular lifestyle is wrong I do so because I am homophobic,fear them or hate them. It simply is not a issue anymore than my marriage is. If my only friends were lesbian you might have a point. As for your other questions,their friends among straights is either equal or might even exceed that of the gay community. One reason is they don't demand complete agreement with their lifestyle,anymore than they need to have complete agreement with the lifestyle of others. They are highly respected and well liked by most that know them or have business dealings with them. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 18, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 18, 2014 And is that sort of tolerance and understanding not what most people are trying to say and do? I think that you have described what I hear many in the younger generation, "liberals" and gays saying in how we should regard the LGBT people of our community. (I also hear it from conservatives like you, who actually have gay family members and/or friends...) They are people first. Sexuality and sexual preferences are but a small part of who they are. It really is a distinct minority that keep trying to stir the pot on with side of the issue. And the more we give their divergent point of view attention the more traction they get, creating the illusion that they represent the majority. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 And is that sort of tolerance and understanding not what most people are trying to say and do? I think that you have described what I hear many in the younger generation, "liberals" and gays saying in how we should regard the LGBT people of our community. (I also hear it from conservatives like you, who actually have gay family members and/or friends...) They are people first. Sexuality and sexual preferences are but a small part of who they are. It really is a distinct minority that keep trying to stir the pot on with side of the issue. And the more we give their divergent point of view attention the more traction they get, creating the illusion that they represent the majority. Just to clear up one thing,I do not tolerate them,it is not an issue of tolerance. People first doesn't mean that I would vote for or support gay marriage and that is what this was about. Not such a small part as my religious beliefs dictate,not ever acceptable or right. You are right tho,you concentrate on a small minority and take any that reject the idea of legalizing gay marriage as fair and just as homophobic or a right wing fanatic. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 18, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 18, 2014 And that knife cuts both ways... I would also differ with your apparent definition of tolerance. You seem to be using the word as if it is more a begrudging and reluctant effort to not make an issue of something, almost a stiff lipped survival that requires significant self-restraint from violent opposition, sort of an uneasy truce, despite strong feelings, resentment, even anger to the contrary. It would imply no desire or need to understand those different, since the preference would be to eliminate those differences if at all possible. From my perspective the notion of tolerance is a matter of forbearance, striving to maintain Christian unity despite differences and diversity. There would be an openness to understand the differences without it being a pretext or even a felt need for changing or trying to eliminate those differences. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 And that knife cuts both ways... I would also differ with your apparent definition of tolerance. You seem to be using the word as if it is more a begrudging and reluctant effort to not make an issue of something, almost a stiff lipped survival that requires significant self-restraint from violent opposition, sort of an uneasy truce, despite strong feelings, resentment, even anger to the contrary. It would imply no desire or need to understand those different, since the preference would be to eliminate those differences if at all possible. From my perspective the notion of tolerance is a matter of forbearance, striving to maintain Christian unity despite differences and diversity. There would be an openness to understand the differences without it being a pretext or even a felt need for changing or trying to eliminate those differences. As you "tolerate" those that believe the legalization of marriage for gays is just flat out wrong? The homosexual lifestyle is just plain wrong. As are many things we cannot change,that doesn't mean we change the definition of marriage to mean two men or two women just to prove we have no desire to change them. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 18, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 18, 2014 For those firmly against gay marriage, don't do it. If two gay men get married, how does that effect me and my marriage? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 For those firmly against gay marriage, don't do it. If two gay men get married, how does that effect me and my marriage? Two men getting married does not affect my marriage either. So if an issue doesn't affect you or yours personally,as a Christian you will condone,give your verbal support behind a measure you know that God has called an abomination? If a gay couple were married in our church by a SDA pastor it would not directly affect my marriage either. Should we in fairness give them the right to a church ceremony? Personally I think it is very hypocritical to claim it only right and just to change the definition of marriage, support a God declared abomination and then say "Oops,sorry getting married in our church is not allowed as now it is wrong". A man with five wives doesn't impact my marriage anymore than a gay marriage.By that reasoning you must also suppot polygamy. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 19, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 19, 2014 So where do we draw the line on matters of morality where others obviously don't subscribe to our moral code? Shall we push to have Saturday work stopped, since we believe that the seventh day is the Sabbath? Do we push for outlawing divorce for everyone since we have a narrowly defined basis to allow it? How do you decide which moral issues you must push for as a legislative mandate? It is like the classic statement of the right to free speech, "I vigorously disagree with what you say, but will zealously defend your right to say it." Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 So where do we draw the line on matters of morality where others obviously don't subscribe to our moral code? Shall we push to have Saturday work stopped, since we believe that the seventh day is the Sabbath? Do we push for outlawing divorce for everyone since we have a narrowly defined basis to allow it? How do you decide which moral issues you must push for as a legislative mandate? It is like the classic statement of the right to free speech, "I vigorously disagree with what you say, but will zealously defend your right to say it." No we should not push for Sat work to be stopped.On the flip side we should not condone,support or agree it is only right and fair a law that forbids work on Sunday. Legislative mandate and SDA christians are two different issues. You don't have any problem supporting a legislative mandate that says gay marriage should be the same as traditional marriage. As a SDA christian I don't think there is a mandate that says I must support or endorse this.I don't think we should be protesting in the streets,but there are those that do believe that is right and you wish to deny them that or condemn them because they don't agree with your very liberal view. Treating others as they should be treated regardless of our differences is not the same as I see on this forum Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 20, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 20, 2014 As usual you miss the point and read into things more than what is actually said... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 As usual you miss the point and read into things more than what is actually said... So where do we draw the line on matters of morality where others obviously don't subscribe to our moral code? Shall we push to have Saturday work stopped, since we believe that the seventh day is the Sabbath? Do we push for outlawing divorce for everyone since we have a narrowly defined basis to allow it? How do you decide which moral issues you must push for as a legislative mandate? No,this is quite plain and so are other opinions you have expressed in other forums on this topic. The gay community and liberals haven't had any problem pushing their issues as a legislative mandate. Divorce is already an established legislative mandate,doing so did not require changing the meaning to be inclusive to a few. The pastors of a privately owned chapel,one that specifically states their purpose is traditional christian wedding ceremonies are facing some hefty fines and will probably lose in court and close. They hand out a variety of books and biblical pamphlets on traditional marriage. Should they also be forced to provide same for gay and lesbian couples in language they prefer? You also expressed an opinion that God would be merciful to gays/lesbians and not hold them accountable. Isn't God already merciful to all of us? Do you believe that when Christ returns those still willfully living a lifestyle God calls an abomination will be given eternal life? Does that mercy extend to others that hold onto a cherished sin and refuse to let go of because God in His mercy will grant us eternal life anyway? Then a fair and just God will have to be "merciful" in the same manner towards all Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 23, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 23, 2014 Sometimes the facts are simply very different from what you have been led to believe or have chosen to believe... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Sometimes the facts are simply very different from what you have been led to believe or have chosen to believe... What facts are you referring to? Tell me please what are the very different facts in the following... No,this is quite plain and so are other opinions you have expressed in other forums on this topic. The gay community and liberals haven't had any problem pushing their issues as a legislative mandate. Divorce is already an established legislative mandate,doing so did not require changing the meaning to be inclusive to a few. The pastors of a privately owned chapel,one that specifically states their purpose is traditional christian wedding ceremonies are facing some hefty fines and will probably lose in court and close. They hand out a variety of books and biblical pamphlets on traditional marriage. Should they also be forced to provide same for gay and lesbian couples in language they prefer? You also expressed an opinion that God would be merciful to gays/lesbians and not hold them accountable. Isn't God already merciful to all of us? Do you believe that when Christ returns those still willfully living a lifestyle God calls an abomination will be given eternal life? Does that mercy extend to others that hold onto a cherished sin and refuse to let go of because God in His mercy will grant us eternal life anyway? Then a fair and just God will have to be "merciful" in the same manner towards all Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 25, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 25, 2014 Your choice to believe what I said as different from what I actually said... Your choice to believe things you find posted on the internet as being the whole story, a truthful or correct version of the story or the only perspective worth considering... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Your choice to believe what I said as different from what I actually said... Your choice to believe things you find posted on the internet as being the whole story, a truthful or correct version of the story or the only perspective worth considering... This is what you said referring to the gay lifestyle.......Posted 18 October 2014 - 10:05 PM And who says he hasn't or wouldn't exercise mercy for them? (You say "given in", but I would say that God is merciful to all of us sinners.) Posted 20 October 2014 - 02:50 AM Gerry Cabalo, on 19 Oct 2014 - 09:45 AM, said: Of course, He is merciful! Forgiveness is offered to all repenting sinners. But is He so merciful so that no one will be lost? He is merciful to more than just repenting sinners. Jesus said he sends the rain for the just and the unjust. Mercy is more than merely forgiveness of sin. Mercy also implies understanding of the whole circumstance and forbearance even in the face of rebellion and rejection. We can extend mercy to anyone without regard to their attitude toward us or God. It's that turning the other cheek thing, going the second mile, any random act of kindness to strangers. While God is merciful to all,one practicing a homosexual lifestyle or any other condemned behavior at the time of Christ's return will not receive mercy or escape from the consequences of his actions. Mercy as in verbally supporting something we know to be wrong? Going the second mile and voting for gay marriage.God does understand the whole circumstance,far better than you.Will He make exceptions to some practicing deviant behavior at the time of his return? We are to obey the laws of the land until it conflicts with the laws of God. This does Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 25, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 25, 2014 With what seems to be your understanding of mercy, I am quite thankful to not be at your mercy. Thankfully all of this is in God's hands and not yours or mine. I get the impression that if it were up to some of us, mercy would end now and only one possible outcome of divine justice could be possible for anyone different - kill them, with some sense of satisfaction and pride that we are rid of them. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 With what seems to be your understanding of mercy, I am quite thankful to not be at your mercy. Thankfully all of this is in God's hands and not yours or mine. I get the impression that if it were up to some of us, mercy would end now and only one possible outcome of divine justice could be possible for anyone different - kill them, with some sense of satisfaction and pride that we are rid of them. There is only one outcome of divine justice for those of us that willfully are living a lifestyle or hanging onto a cherished sin when Christ returns. This is quite a statement......kill them, with some sense of satisfaction and pride that we are rid of them. Quite a rant from someone that champions all differences liberal as christian. Do I want to see anyone different than myself be killed now and good riddance? Not hardly . Does that mean to prove what a tolerant liberal minded christian I am I will endorse,support verbally ,support at the ballot box ,champion gay activists that wish to force others to go against their religious beliefs? No. It does appear that is what is necessary to meet with your approval. Your approval and accusations really will not have a bearing on my life or my beliefs. I believe the homosexual lifestyle is wrong,no ifs,ands or buts. It is listed among other behaviors and lifestyles that will cause the loss of eternal life. I am not going to protest in the front of a gay couples home,or protest at the capital,or treat them any differently than anyone else. But I do not feel compelled to support their demands. Any and all should be welcome in our churches barring disruptive displays,they should be treated just as the most highly respected member in good standing. Does that mean in a nominating committee I would vote to elect them elder,SS teacher etc.NOPE. I honestly think for some here being elected to hold office would be just fine and "proving what a open minded liberal christian" they are.For me,I would discriminate. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 25, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 25, 2014 Since you seem to not understand anything I post on this topic, or many others for that matter, and seem rather adept at twisting it to your own myopic POV, I give up. I am officially done attempting to communicate with you since it seems more than an exercise in futility. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Since you seem to not understand anything I post on this topic, or many others for that matter, and seem rather adept at twisting it to your own myopic POV, I give up. I am officially done attempting to communicate with you since it seems more than an exercise in futility. Thank you. Actually this is rather an odd comment when you are the one saying your impression is others wanting people that are different to be killed. Talk about not understanding anything Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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