SDA churches that keep the Sabbath on Sunday - Tonga

[Sojourner]

I am guessing this has probably been brought up in here before, but I heard a radio interview that made reference to it recently. Effectively the Seventh-day Adventist church in Samoa keeps the Sabbath on Sunday along with the other Christian churches there with the blessing of the International SDA movement. 

 

I am a little surprised that they would be keen to worship on Sunday and I don't really accept their reason. Ellen White seemed to manage to keep the Sabbath in Australia okay on our international date line time change. So I am unsure why others need to keep Sunday as the Sabbath in the Southern Hemisphere and don't want to join in with the rest of us on Saturday? 

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11182187

[Gregory Matthews]

Sojouner:

 

The fundamental issue here relates to the application of the 4th Commandment, as well as other Biblical scriptures.  In this regard, there are two (2) answers to this question:

 

1) One group believes that the Biblical Sabbath in not determined by the name of the day, as in the time of Christ, in Israel, no days were named Saturday and Sunday,  This group believes that the Biblical Sabbath is every 7th day, regardless of the name of that day.   In addition, this group believes that the 7-day cycle was correct at the time of Christ and that this 7-day cycle can be traced back to the time of Christ.  IOW, we can know with certainty a 7-day cycle that can be traced back to the time of Christ.  Regardless of how that 7th day is named in our language, that day is the Biblical Sabbath that should be kept today. 

 

This group believes that is certain Pacific Islands that 7th day is currently named Sunday and therefore, Sunday is the day that should be kept regardless of what other people do.

 

2) There is a 2nd group of people who believes that the Biblical Sabbath is the day before the day that Christ rose from the dead--which of course is true.  They are not generally concerned with tracing the actual day back to the time of Christ.  Rather they look to the end-time Biblical statements that they believe talk about the establishment of a counterfeit Sabbath based upon the day that Christ is said to rise from the dead, which is named Sunday in the English language.  To determine which d ay should be kept as the Biblical Sabbath,  this group simply looks to see what day is kept by the rest of the Christian world as the day that Christ rose from the dead.  Once they have established that day, which is typically named Sunday, they keep the preceding day, which is typically named Saturday in the English language.

 

Both groups of people are sincere.  Both groups of people wish to honor the true Biblical Sabbath.  But, they differ in the application.  One group believes that the Biblical Sabbath is based upon a 7-day cycle and the other group believes that it is the day prior to the day that other Christians keep;

 

NOTES: 

 

1) A fundamental issue here is related to the International Date Line (IDL) and recent changes that were made in it which affected Samoa. 

 

2) This issue also affects Tonga.  The most recent changes in the IDL affected Samoa and this is where the most intense discussion occurs.  The IDL changes that affected Tonga occurred some years earlier and there is little discussion about Tonga on this issue.

 

3) As the changes to the IDL are complex and another issue, I am not discussing that aspect here.  Regardless of that, the issue is as I have stated it here in basic terms.

 

4) The article in the NZH, that you cited in your post, is in error when it says that the SDA Church in Samoa is keeping Sunday as the Sabbath in honor of the day that Christ rose from the dead.  It is keeping is due to the 7-day weekly cycle that I have mentioned here.

[Gregory Matthews]

Lyndon:  We can see the answer in how the Jewish religion is practiced today.

 

1) The most liberal branch of the Jewish religion has services on Sunday.

 

'2) The conservative and moderate branches of the Jewish religion have their services on Saturday.

[Sojourner]

Two more points to add!

We have Samoan Seventh-day Adventist Churches in Australia - who keep the Sabbath with the rest of the Adventist church here.

Second, could it be that the name of the day "Sunday" gives it away that it is not the Sabbath and is the day of Sun Worship in the Second Century and that the day was specifically dedicated for Sun Worship in the various solar temples that were Christianized by Constantine?

[Gregory Matthews]

Sojourner:

 

Check your history of the days of the week, as they relate to the International Date Line and you will have your answer.

 

Here is your answer.  It was a Thursday night in Samoa, in December of 2011 when the people went to bed.  The next day when they woke up, it was  Saturday,  Friday had been dropped out of the weekly calendar , for one week, Saturday was now the 6th day since the previous Saturday and Sunday was now the 7th day since the previous Saturday.

 

The record is there.  Regardless of the name of the weekly day, The 7th day of the weekly cycle is now named Sunday in Samoa.  So, some SDAs began to keep the Sabbath according to the 7-day cycle and commanded by the 4th Commandment, as they understood it. 

 

Other SDAs decided to adapt and began to keep a day named Saturday which was now the 6th day in a 7-day weekly cycle.

 

Sojourner, take your pick as to what you believe that the Bible teaches.  But, do your fact checking and look at the historical issues and get them straight.

[Gregory Matthews]

Sojourner:  The situation in Australia differs from that of Samoa.  There has never, in Australia, been a change in the International Date Line, as happened in Samoa, that dropped a day out of the calendar for one week as happened in Samoa and Tonga.

 

IOW, in  Australia, Saturday has remained the 7th day of a 7-day weekly cycle.

 

Sojourner, to find your answer, you need to consider both what you believe to be the Biblical teaching and the facts related to the International Date Line and historic changes that have been made in the IDL.   Do your homework, please.

 

More on Australia:  The IDL generally follows the 180 degree of longitude (with an exception for Tonga and Samoa).  Australia lies west of 160 degrees longitude.  So, why would EGW have a problem?

[phkrause]

Lyndon:  We can see the answer in how the Jewish religion is practiced today.

 

1) The most liberal branch of the Jewish religion has services on Sunday.

 

'2) The conservative and moderate branches of the Jewish religion have their services on Saturday.

Not saying your wrong, but I will try to contact my cousin Sammy to find out a little more about this. I myself have never heard of any Jews "liberal" or not that worship on Sunday. I'll be interested as to what he has to say.

[Gregory Matthews]

pkrause:  check out the followoing URL:

 

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ask_the_expert/at/Ask_the_Expert_Sunday_Service.shtml

 

You will note that the above URL states that some Jewish congregations are switching back to a Saturday service.  Well, the subject is a bit more complex than is stated above.

 

The one central tenenant of Judiasm is a form of monotheism that denies the Trinity.  Byond that, most anything will be accepted.  I live in an area which such is evident.  The area where I live  has Jewish congregations that range from conservative to liberal.  In some cases, even I shake my head at what I see.  When I question, I generally go to a couple of Rabbi's whom  I know pretty well and ask them about what I have observed.

 

Probably the majority of Jewish groups give some significance to the Sabbath, although that significance will vary from group to group.  But, there are some Jewish groups, that I would call liberal, who have their services on Sunday.  The so-called Reform Jews are probably the best known group.  In the past, some of their congregations have had services on both Saturday and Sunday, while others have only had services on one of those days. 

 

Regardless, the bottom line remains:  Today one can find Jewish congregatons that have their services on Sunday and not on Saturday.

 

http://americanjewisharchives.org/publications/journal/PDF/1982_34_01_00_olitzky.pdf

 

http://forward.com/articles/6461/for-tradition-s-sake-one-reform-temple-cleaves/

[Sojourner]

 

Sojourner:

 

Check your history of the days of the week, as they relate to the International Date Line and you will have your answer.

 

Here is your answer.  It was a Thursday night in Samoa, in December of 2011 when the people went to bed.  The next day when they woke up, it was  Saturday,  Friday had been dropped out of the weekly calendar , for one week, Saturday was now the 6th day since the previous Saturday and Sunday was now the 7th day since the previous Saturday.

 

The record is there.  Regardless of the name of the weekly day, The 7th day of the weekly cycle is now named Sunday in Samoa.  So, some SDAs began to keep the Sabbath according to the 7-day cycle and commanded by the 4th Commandment, as they understood it. 

 

Other SDAs decided to adapt and began to keep a day named Saturday which was now the 6th day in a 7-day weekly cycle.

 

Sojourner, take your pick as to what you believe that the Bible teaches.  But, do your fact checking and look at the historical issues and get them straight.

Could it simply be that it was changed because it was incorrect in the first place?

[Gregory Matthews]

Sojourner, you come across to me as not understanding the basic issues.

 

In general terms, the  International Date Line follows a straight line from the North Pole to the South Pole that is the 180th longitude.   Regardless of where you place the IDL, on a round globe that is believed to be the Earth, one would beleive that the IDL should consist of a straight line gong from the North Pole to the South Pole.

 

Look at any map of the IDL.  You will note that while it follows, generally, a straight line, is does not do so in the area of the  Pacific that includes Tonga and Samoa.  It is that deviation that has resulted in the 7th day sabbath following on a day named in that area as Sunday.

 

For further information, in deealing with Samoa, check the rationale for making the recent change.  That rationale was for purely commercial reasons.   It ws not due to any percieved error in the IDL.

 

Again, go to any map of the IDL, look at it and tell me why you think that the deviation is justified.

 

Don't speculate.  Get the facts.  The facts are available.

[Gregory Matthews]

Sojourner:  If you were to tell me that the IDL was in error in its placement on the 180 degree of longitude, you would raise a different issue.  As a matter of fact, that  question has been raised by a few people.

 

If it is true that the IDL should be placed on another longitude, then it means that the Earth, in certain parts, is in error as to the actual day of the Sabbath. 

 

This would be a major issue.

 

This idea is based on reasoning that lies outside of the Bible.

 

If this line of thought is true, it simply means that on an issue as fundamental as the Sabbath, the Bible does not have a clear teaching and God has left us in doubt on a fundamental issue.

[phkrause]

pkrause:  check out the followoing URL:

 

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ask_the_expert/at/Ask_the_Expert_Sunday_Service.shtml

 

You will note that the above URL states that some Jewish congregations are switching back to a Saturday service.  Well, the subject is a bit more complex than is stated above.

 

The one central tenenant of Judiasm is a form of monotheism that denies the Trinity.  Byond that, most anything will be accepted.  I live in an area which such is evident.  The area where I live  has Jewish congregations that range from conservative to liberal.  In some cases, even I shake my head at what I see.  When I question, I generally go to a couple of Rabbi's whom  I know pretty well and ask them about what I have observed.

 

Probably the majority of Jewish groups give some significance to the Sabbath, although that significance will vary from group to group.  But, there are some Jewish groups, that I would call liberal, who have their services on Sunday.  The so-called Reform Jews are probably the best known group.  In the past, some of their congregations have had services on both Saturday and Sunday, while others have only had services on one of those days. 

 

Regardless, the bottom line remains:  Today one can find Jewish congregatons that have their services on Sunday and not on Saturday.

 

http://americanjewisharchives.org/publications/journal/PDF/1982_34_01_00_olitzky.pdf

 

http://forward.com/articles/6461/for-tradition-s-sake-one-reform-temple-cleaves/

Well those were very interesting articles. Thanks for the links.