What's Wrong With Ecumenism?

[Gerr]

I often wonder why we continue to 'misunderstand' EGW. It seems our study habits of her writings are severely limited to the small picture rather than the larger picture.

Why should it be a wonder?  A much smaller book, the Bible, is misunderstood, why not EGW?

[LifeHiscost]

Why should it be a wonder?  A much smaller book, the Bible, is misunderstood, why not EGW?

  The Lord has sent His people much instruction, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little. Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light. 103 {CSA 68.6} 

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Lauralea]

??I thought those who are saved will be changed?? So I am not sure of your intent?

They will be changed in their physical characteristics but they will not be forced to be different than they are inside. Revelation 20 makes it clear salvation is not universal (first and second resurrrection)

[Gerr]

God turned my theology concerning His 'modus operandi' upside down recently, What the Christ's death did was ''redeem the human race'', every single person, from the death sentence of sin. Thats the 'gospel' according to what God showed me over the past few years. And He used the Desire of Ages (mostly) to do it. God is NOT going to lose a single soul to eternal death. SDA's got this one a bit wrong. Still love the church tho.

 

david

Why don't you start another thread so we can discuss whether this universal salvation is the truth or one of those "doctrines of devils?"

[Lauralea]

.Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.   6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.  

Rev 20:6-15 This is from the Bible and while not a pleasant passage it is clear that both fallen angels and humans not written in the Book of Life will not be saved. While other denominations may have it wrong about hell burning forever, in general they are correct there is one, and Adventist concur with them in this respect.

[Kevin H]

Mrs. White started out as a shut door Adventist, but grew into someone more welcoming of others. She wrote Steps to Christ for the general Christian world and had it published, not by an Adventist publishing house but a popular Christian publishing house. She even became a popular speaker in Sunday keeping churches on Sunday mornings.

 

Now the "Shut door" protected us to a great amount from something that was very sad happening in other churches over those years. Churches. The theory of Evolution produced many Atheists and one group started to see the Bible as fiction following evolution and became preterists.  In a radical reaction to this those who wanted to believe the Bible came up with the views of Fundamentalism.

 

While Fundamentalism did not have the huge impact that it had in other churches, and produced a resistance movement to it (such as Elder Butler, Mrs. White, Willie and eventually A. G. Daniels, W. W. Prescott, who turned from fundamentalism, and the religion theology in some of our schools most notable Washington Missionary college.) yet it did grow in. Elder Butler sided with his nephew Elder Washburn in opposing Jones and Wagner. He had to leave for a while after 1888 and struggle. I believe that it was his anit-fundamentalism views that got him through this process.

 

His nephew, however was not only anti-Jones and Wagner, but also a strong fundamentalist. He liked to collect Mrs. White quotes that he saw as supporting his views, and apply a fundamentalist mindset to these and use them as authority to push his views. Mrs. White wrote to him and others from his camp saying that he was misusing her writings. He somehow was able to come up with reasons for the quotes he liked to have been from God, but her criticisms of how he was using her writings as not binding upon him. I know that some from that school of thought saw Mrs. White as having apostatized, and taught that you needed to turn to her pre-1888 writings which were from God, with her post 1888 writings being from Jones, Wagner, Willie, Prescott and Daniels. Washburn became a good friend of a young man, Benjamin G. Wilkinson who used the same methods and held very similar views and who got very similar letters from Willie as Willie's mother wrote to Washburn. I don't know how familiar Wilkinson was with the fact that Washburn and Mrs. White had the same friction that Wilkinson was having with Willie, but he saw Willie as an example of prophet's children being unfaithful and compared him to the complaints of Samuel's sons. [by the way, there is evidence in the Bible that the accusations against Samuel's children may have been exaggerated and more political differences rather than issues with their relationship with God.]

 

Anyway, Mrs. White, Elder Butler, Daniel's, Prescott, Willie and the Religion faculty of Washington Missionary College in the 1900s became active in opposing Fundamentalism. Mrs. White was of course getting old. And there were those who saw her as having apostatized or other reasons to down play the post 1888 Mrs. White. While Butler was united with is nephew against Jones and Wagner, they were on opposite sides of the Fundamentalist issue. Mrs. White died in 1915, and Butler died in 1917. In 1919 a number of our scholars, who had been more ecumenical were heading to an interdenominational Bible conference in Philadelphia PA. This was put on by the people who published the tracts "The Fundamentals" and pushed "Fundamentalism." Elder Daniels and W. W. Prescott wanted to stop this feeling that if the church accepted Fundamentalism that people would reject Mrs. White when people realize how she does not meet the fundamentalists standard and did a lot of copying and did not have a one sized fit all theology. So he called for a Bible Conference just prior to the one in Philadelphia. Where those heading to Philadelphia could hear some things to try to prevent what Philadelphia was going to offer them.  Willie was to join Daniels and Prescott, but seeing the trend that was happening, he discovered that he had to do some work out of town.

 

At first it looked like Daniels and Prescott was making progress. There was a lot of agreement and positive feelings at the end of the conference. It was mostly Elder Washburn and Wilkinson who left unhappy with the conference. Also, Stephen Haskell, while not as extreme as Washburn and Wilkinson, was also a supporter of fundamentalism and unhappy with Daniels and Prescott.  However, sadly the others did not turn around and go home with the message from Washington D. C.   They went on to Philadelphia where in the fellowship with the Fundamentalists, they left behind what they had just learned in Washington DC and took home what they learned in Philadelphia. Most Adventists following the views of Haskell, with a sub group following Washburn and Wilkinson. 

 

This lead to the 1923 General Conference where Daniels was taken out of office, Prescott demoted, Willie White got to "keep" his job, however it was amended to change his job description where it was stripped of all power. So basically he was fired but was allowed to continue to come to the office and pick up the paycheck. The religion department of Washington Missionary College were thrown out and there were witch hunts for anti-fundamentalists.

 

As they studied Mrs. White with fundamentalist mindsets, they came upon her Shut door views and also had some pre-1888 views that gave us more distance from others who we had become more open towards, so our openness lead us to Philadelphia, which made us put more power to Mrs. White's earlier more closed view and thus caused us to close off our self more from others.

[JoeMo]

Tom W. asks:

" Does God have limitations in what he can do?"

 

With all due respect, I'm gonna give a qualified  yes; that God has limitations on what He will do rather than what He can do.  For example, I doubt that He will drag anyone kicking and screaming through the pearly gates.  Even though he could do so, He will not violate our free will by forcing us to do something we really don't want to do.

[Tom Wetmore]

So, when the Bible says, "The wages of sin is death," it means life?

I thought that this rhetorical question was sufficiently obvious. By the death of one, all are saved. Jesus death brings us life. A seed is planted dies and brings forth new life, abundant life greater and beyond what it had before it died. Death and decay nurtures new life throughout nature.

In context, while death may not have been in God's original plan, He has shown that he can and does use even the worst possible outcome for his purpose. He is bigger, stronger and able to overcome any obstacle that the devil and sin throws at Him.

[Tom Wetmore]

Tom W. asks:

" Does God have limitations in what he can do?"

With all due respect, I'm gonna give a qualified yes; that God has limitations on what He will do rather than what He can do. For example, I doubt that He will drag anyone kicking and screaming through the pearly gates. Even though he could do so, He will not violate our free will by forcing us to do something we really don't want to do.

I am hesitant to box God in, to put him in a corner when it comes to saying what He will do. He may choose to limit himself, but I believe in a can do God who has no limitations in what he can do, including his choice on his will. Scripture does give us some instances where he changed his mind, or what he said he would do. He seems to have changed his method or strategy in response to mankind a number of times. His will and purpose didn't change. In fact it shows his will to not be thwarted in achieving what he wills to do - save to the uttermost. He can out smart the devil and certainly can outsmart us.

I don't think he will drag anyone into heaven against their free will. But it is like a little child that throws a temper tantrum and refuses to eat his supper - I really am not going to force feed him, although I might actually be able to do so against that little guy's free will to refuse food. But that is not my only option. I can wait until he is hungry enough. I can change the food for something more palatable so he doesn't starve. I can use my powers of persuasion and invent a new way to "thwart" his obstinate little temper. Nor is force or destruction of wickedness God's only option. If I can outwit, outlast and outperform a toddler, I think God can do so with his children.

We seem to limit God in what choices he has based on what choices we see that we have. Obey or not. Accept or not. But what God can create, he can recreate. He can fix what is broken. He can convince the hardest hearted person to change and if they can't or won't, he can do a heart transplant. Can God outwit, outlast, outdo even the worst temper tantrum of his children? Think of a God who can take dust and dirt and make a man. What difference is it to take the dust and dirt to which the dead become and recreate them new and without spot or blemish, inside and out. No limitation on what he can do.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Tom Wetmore
Typos and grammar cleanup...

[CoAspen]

 

We seem to limit God in what choices he has based on what choices we see that we have.

[JoeMo]

Tom,

I liked your post very much.  I agree - we can't put God in a box.  Every time we try to do that, He jumps right out and shows us that we're wrong.  Thank you for reminding me of that.  God's ultimate will  - whatever it is - will be accomplished; and no power in heaven on earth, or below the earth can prevent it!!

 

I hope you're not insulted by this, but sometimes you talk just like a charismatic.  I like it!

[lazarus]

I've always been rather intrigued by God dragging that shady character, Lot, kicking and screaming out of the path of destruction.

[LifeHiscost]

but I believe in can do God who has no limitations in what he can do

…12If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; 13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.....2 Timothy

That's why I'm fully satisfied to proclaim;

God is Love! Jesus saves! :smiley:

[Gerr]

I am hesitant to box God in, to put him in a corner when it comes to saying what He will do. He may choose to limit himself, but I believe in a can do God who has no limitations in what he can do, including his choice on his will. Scripture does give us some instances where he changed his mind, or what he said he would do. He seems to have changed his method or strategy in response to mankind a number of times. His will and purpose didn't change. In fact it shows his will to not be thwarted in achieving what he wills to do - save to the uttermost. He can out smart the devil and certainly can outsmart us.

I don't think he will drag anyone into heaven against their free will. But it is like a little child that throws a temper tantrum and refuses to eat his supper - I really am not going to force feed him, although I might actually be able to do so against that little guy's free will to refuse food. But that is not my only option. I can wait until he is hungry enough. I can change the food for something more palatable so he doesn't starve. I can use my powers of persuasion and invent a new way to "thwart" his obstinate little temper. Nor is force or destruction of wickedness God's only option. If I can outwit, outlast and outperform a toddler, I think God can do so with his children.

We seem to limit God in what choices he has based on what choices we see that we have. Obey or not. Accept or not. But what God can create, he can recreate. He can fix what is broken. He can convince the hardest hearted person to change and if they can't or won't, he can do a heart transplant. Can God outwit, outlast, outdo even the worst temper tantrum of his children? Think of a God who can take dust and dirt and make a man. What difference is it to take the dust and dirt to which the dead become and recreate them new and without spot or blemish, inside and out. No limitation on what he can do.

I am absolutely certain about one thing God cannot and will not do, i.e. to lie.

[Kevin H]

In case the details of my last post were confusing let me give the summery and then you can read the details:

 

We started out with the shut door belief and had more isolation from others.

 

We changed our mind about the shut door and did start to have improved relationships with others and Mrs. White became a popular speaker in Sunday keeping churches. Her topics were Jesus' love for them and the health message.

 

As we interacted more with others we picked up the concept of "fundamentalism" from others. Meanwhile there where leaders in our church who tried to stop the ideas of fundamentalism from coming into our church. In 1919 there were two Bible Conferences, one down playing Fundamentalism the other building it up.  The Fundamentalists won out.

 

As the fundamentalists began to read some of the earlier more separate views, they saw that as the infallible word of God and once again began to separate ourselves from others.  

[Tom Wetmore]

I am absolutely certain about one thing God cannot and will not do, i.e. to lie.

Define "lie". But before you do, be absolutely certain (as you were in your unequivocal and confident declaration) that you and God define it exactly the same.

[Gerr]

Define "lie". But before you do, be absolutely certain (as you were in your unequivocal and confident declaration) that you and God define it exactly the same.

What do you think these mean?

 

ESV | ‎Tt 1:2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began 

ESV | ‎Heb 6:18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. 

ESV | ‎Nu 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it? 

[Tom Wetmore]

Not definitions of lying. They just reiterate what you already said.

[JoeMo]

In a way, I also believe that it is impossible for God to lie, because whatever He speaks happens (sooner or later).

 

"For he spoke, and it came to be;  he commanded, and it stood firm." Ps. 33:9

[Tom Wetmore]

I'm not really disputing that God does not lie. I am more interested in understanding what that means. That is why understanding the definition of lying becomes important in the context of avoiding putting God in a box of human design.

Would it surprise you to hear tha God instructed someone to tell a lie? Would it surprise you to hear that he did not punish someone who lied, but instead punished the one who believed the lie and disobeyed what God had said to do?

Perhaps it might help focus the definition of a lie to understand what it means to tell the truth. What is the truth?

[JoeMo]

Would it surprise you to hear tha God instructed someone to tell a lie? Would it surprise you to hear that he did not punish someone who lied, but instead punished the one who believed the lie and disobeyed what God had said to do?

 

I was thinking about that today; and it seemed like there were a couple of instances where God either directly deceived or instructed someone else to deceive another person; but I couldn't come up with enough specifics to even look it up.  Do you have any specific scriptures?  As far as God not punishing someone who lied, He forgives a lot more than lying if we accept Jesus as the sacrifice for our sins.

 

I know that God lets people believe a lie; but IMO that's different than outright lying.  I also think it's possible that God gives people prophetic visions; however, due to cultural and historical bias, those people misinterpret the visions.  When those interpretations don't turn out as expected, the visions are declared a lie from God or from the prophet who proclaimed them.

[RonP]

I'm a simple Christian but it seems to me that we have forgotten the admonition of the LORD. 

 

Revelation 18

18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 
18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 
18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

 

We do not have to be enemies, but we cannot be friends with the organisations!!

 

People can be Christians, Babylon cannot!!

[whbae]

Gerry Cabala,

 

Right on!

[thx4mercy]

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, .......

 

We do not have to be enemies, but we cannot be friends with the organisations!!

 

Very well said.

[CoAspen]

Don't be an enemy, neither be a friend.

 

Enemy=a person who is actively opposed or hostile to someone or something

Friend=a person whom one knows with whom one has a bond of mutual affection

 

I seem to remember a person speaking about fence riding...in the Bible.

 

What organizations? Organizations are made up of people. So...don't be a friend or enemy to what person/s?