What's Wrong With Ecumenism?

[JoeMo]

RonP (actually, the Bible) says:

 

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

 

Nowhere does the Bible name the RCC, Baptists, SDA's or any other specific denomination as Babylon or "NOT" Babylon.  Could Babylon mean "the world" no matter what denomination we are?  Christians of the world need to put their petty, non-salvational differences aside and unite, just like countries who believed in freedom put their differences aside and united in WW1 and WW2 against a common enemy.  Aren't we in a spiritual war; preparing for the final battles?

 

There are a couple other threads on CA right now that are doing some serious Catholic bashing.  I personally find it abhorrent.  See how we "love" our brothers and sisters?

[Gerr]

I'm not really disputing that God does not lie. I am more interested in understanding what that means. That is why understanding the definition of lying becomes important in the context of avoiding putting God in a box of human design.

Would it surprise you to hear tha God instructed someone to tell a lie? Would it surprise you to hear that he did not punish someone who lied, but instead punished the one who believed the lie and disobeyed what God had said to do?

Perhaps it might help focus the definition of a lie to understand what it means to tell the truth. What is the truth?

That's why I asked you to  tell what your understanding of "lie" is.  Yeah, Rahab was not punished for telling a "lie".   Yeah, He told Samuel to tell the people that he was going to the hometown of Jesse for sacrifice rather than telling them he was there to anoint a king.  

[Gerr]

RonP (actually, the Bible) says:

 

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

 

Nowhere does the Bible name the RCC, Baptists, SDA's or any other specific denomination as Babylon or "NOT" Babylon.  Could Babylon mean "the world" no matter what denomination we are?  Christians of the world need to put their petty, non-salvational differences aside and unite, just like countries who believed in freedom put their differences aside and united in WW1 and WW2 against a common enemy.  Aren't we in a spiritual war; preparing for the final battles?

 

There are a couple other threads on CA right now that are doing some serious Catholic bashing.  I personally find it abhorrent.  See how we "love" our brothers and sisters?

There is a difference between bashing people and bashing an organization that hangs on devilish doctrines.  Look up what God has to say about Babylon.  You are right in saying that the Bible does not specifically refer to any one denomination as Babylon, but once one understands the principle of Babylon, then what it refers to is inescapable.

[RonP]

That's it Gerry,

I understand that Babylon is made up of religious organisations which has fallen in our eyes.  If we don't know that then we don't understand much of the Bible.  A religious organisation is made up of clergy, and the people (the laity) are just supporters of them. 

 

That is a sad fact. 

[CoAspen]

"Which has fallen in our(your?) eyes".  So it is whoever you choose to make such a statement about. Then you stand on the old "If we(you?)don't know", you question a persons Biblecal knowledge, very convenient!

 

So, how can one not be friends and not be enemies? Ignore, pretend they don't exist, what? Sounds a bit like fear, my faith ain't strong enough, my God ain't strong enough to keep me on the corect path if I get too close. Bah, humbug!!

[Tom Wetmore]

That's why I asked you to  tell what your understanding of "lie" is.  Yeah, Rahab was not punished for telling a "lie".   Yeah, He told Samuel to tell the people that he was going to the hometown of Jesse for sacrifice rather than telling them he was there to anoint a king.

Well, I asked first since you decided to make it an issue. And those weren't the stories I was thinking about, but also add more to the point of why it is perhaps important to understand what lying really means.

[Gerr]

Well, I asked first since you decided to make it an issue. And those weren't the stories I was thinking about, but also add more to the point of why it is perhaps important to understand what lying really means.

Okay, here is my personal understanding of a Biblical lie - anything that is not consistent with the principle of agape love is a lie.  What's yours?

[RonP]

Thanks for the rebuke CoAspen.  I was not very clear in my statement. 

 

Jesus treated all men and women as children of God, but He acknowledged that some were turned away from Him (prodigal sons).  So He went among them to lead them "out" or "back", not to let them think that they were OK where they were.

The original query was about eucemenism, by which I understand to "join with"  and that seems to be wrong.

 

When God says they "are fallen" He is only stating a fact, not that they have recently changed their position. 

 

Hope this helps.

[Stan]

Here is a sample of Ecumenism.

 

Churches get organized on which group feeds to the homeless in downtown East Vancouver, so they do not all show up on the same day.

 

Some have the idea that Ecumenism means everyone if to join one church and have the identical beliefs.

 

I remember one preacher saying that he may not believe as others do, but he would be willing to die for the right for them to do such.

 

Having a United Church of Canada open it's doors to rent to an Adventist Group every Saturday, and the Minister fought the board  so the could rent there, was his testimony to Ecumenism.

 

​Which of the above is evil?

[LifeHiscost]

Here is a sample of Ecumenism.

 

Churches get organized on which group feeds to the homeless in downtown East Vancouver, so they do not all show up on the same day.

 

Some have the idea that Ecumenism means everyone if to join one church and have the identical beliefs.

 

I remember one preacher saying that he may not believe as others do, but he would be willing to die for the right for them to do such.

 

Having a United Church of Canada open it's doors to rent to an Adventist Group every Saturday, and the Minister fought the board  so the could rent there, was his testimony to Ecumenism.

 

​Which of the above is evil?

Some early biblical examples of failures for those who recognized Jehovah as God, caused from close association with individuals of other persuasions was reiterated in the 40 years in the wilderness. It doesn't seem to make any difference what the primary reason is for social gatherings, the camaraderie design for personal benefit leads to pollution of spiritual values as often or more so than the opposite desired affect, of eliciting gradual influence toward revealed will as it's found in the Scripture.

Earlier on this was solved by heeding this command.

 

…16Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 17"Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you. 18"And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty....2 Cor 6

 

OTOH we are to do the work of an evangelist by seeking to save the lost, are we not? How do you do that without being influenced more than your able to persuade others? I'm suggesting it can only be accomplished be developing a strong enough bond with Jesus through prayer and Bible study that the presence of the Holy Spirit can lend the strongest influence in the face of opposing worldly desires that inhibit spiritual growth in the face of temptation to relax our determination not to compromise personal faith, sometimes out of the desire to be pleasing to others.

 

David is a perfect example of that scenario.

 

9Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men^a 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God....1 Cor  6

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[CoAspen]

You seem to insinuate that the example Stan posted will lead to evil. Is that your answer?

 

You also comment that a social gathering with others of a different persuasion will lead to "pollution of spiritual values".

 

Is your spiritual life with God so tenuous for you that you fear the 'socializing' will lead you astray? You also insinuate that these 'others' are unclean.

 

You then through in a couple verses from the Bible about sexual immorality, etc, as if that is what the topic is all about!

 

You try to imply guilt by association of the usual out of context, text posting!!

 

What ever your issues may be with the 'association of others',  that you think should not be 'socialized' with, is your issue. Perhaps other persons are/have a stronger bond with their beliefs that they do not find 'associating'  to be so 'polluting' for them.

[RonP]

Hi CoAspen,

 

You seem to be confusing me with LifeHisCost, for it was he who said those things.  I do agree with the text from 2 Corinthians tho.

 

Hi Stan,

Your words regarding Ecumenism are a good example of how men think, but it's not what God says, so like Peter, I prefer to follow God rather than men.  

[lazarus]

Hi Stan,

Your words regarding Ecumenism are a good example of how men think, but it's not what God says, so like Peter, I prefer to follow God rather than men.

I'd really like to know what scriptures you are thinking of that would speak against what Stan suggested.

[Stan]

I do not support the concept that Adventists are to be isolationist.. not at all. Jesus mingled with people, we have the same mission but a higher responsibility to share the Three Angels Messages.

I do not view people as being unclean just because no one has had the ability to present these messages in a way they can receive them.

NOR do I believed Adventist should present the messages in the " IN YOUR FACE" kind of presentation.

[JoeMo]

There is a difference between bashing people and bashing an organization that hangs on devilish doctrines.  Look up what God has to say about Babylon.  You are right in saying that the Bible does not specifically refer to any one denomination as Babylon, but once one understands the principle of Babylon, then what it refers to is inescapable.

I don't see how what it refers to is inescapable.  If it was, more denominations would agree with the SDA viewpoint.  Many SDA's say it refers to the RCC and those churches that worship on Sunday.  I say it refers to denominationalism and politics; and who we should submit to and worship - the "one world order" or the God of the universe.

 

If the actual end-time issues center around Sabbath vs. Sunday, I will gladly eat my words.  Until I see that happening, I will support ecumenical cooperation among all Christians.  This does not mean becoming one denomination; it simply means to repent of bashing each other and unite under the banner of a mutual love and worship of the Father, Son, and Spirit of the Bible.

[Gerr]

I don't see how what it refers to is inescapable.  If it was, more denominations would agree with the SDA viewpoint.  Many SDA's say it refers to the RCC and those churches that worship on Sunday.  I say it refers to denominationalism and politics; and who we should submit to and worship - the "one world order" or the God of the universe.

 

If the actual end-time issues center around Sabbath vs. Sunday, I will gladly eat my words.  Until I see that happening, I will support ecumenical cooperation among all Christians.  This does not mean becoming one denomination; it simply means to repent of bashing each other and unite under the banner of a mutual love and worship of the Father, Son, and Spirit of the Bible.

The Sabbath will not be the central issue, but it will be one of the main end-time issues.  Your words better taste good!  :

[RonP]

{Mar 177.3}

At present Sunday-keeping is not the test. The time will come when men will not only forbid Sunday work, but they will try to force men to labor on the Sabbath, and to subscribe to Sunday observance or forfeit their freedom and their lives. But the time for this has not yet come, for the truth must be presented more fully before the people as a witness.... 

[JoeMo]

The Sabbath will not be the central issue, but it will be one of the main end-time issues.  Your words better taste good!  :

Lord, make my words sweet and tender, in case I have to eat them!

 

RonP says: "The time will come when men will not only forbid Sunday work, but they will try to force men to labor on the Sabbath." 

While this may be the interpretation of EGW and many SDAs, I see nothing in scripture that specifies this.  If you have some scriptures to support this that stands alone, please share them.  "Who do you worship?" will be a central issue; but I think forced Friday worship (Muslim) is an equal or greater threat then forced Sunday worship.

[LifeHiscost]

The Sabbath will not be the central issue, but it will be one of the main end-time issues.  Your words better taste good!  :

I think that thought goes something like this:

 

   Be sure your words are tender and sweet, for tomorrow you may have to eat them.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Tom Wetmore]

Jesus said we are to be salt and light to the world.  Both have the quality of mixing with the surroundings and changing them and losing themselves in the process.  Mixing salt in food enhances its flavor and works best when it loses itself in the food.  Salt by itself is not good for food and very quickly overwhelms the taste buds making it difficult to taste anything else.  Too much salt is not a good thing.  Light functions in a similar way.  Too much is blinding.  A photographer knows that light and shadow must be in balance to produce the best image.  The best light is not obvious because it  blends  with the shadows but does not wash them out.  

[Gerr]

Jesus said we are to be salt and light to the world.  Both have the quality of mixing with the surroundings and changing them and losing themselves in the process.  Mixing salt in food enhances its flavor and works best when it loses itself in the food.  Salt by itself is not good for food and very quickly overwhelms the taste buds making it difficult to taste anything else.  Too much salt is not a good thing.  Light functions in a similar way.  Too much is blinding.  A photographer knows that light and shadow must be in balance to produce the best image.  The best light is not obvious because it  blends  with the shadows but does not wash them out.  

I whole-heartedly agree about the salt and light metaphor.  Both are useful when they both diffuse their qualities with whatever they are mixed with.  That's the ecumenism that is useful.  And as I mentioned in a previous post, we have done that with temperance, religious liberty, disaster relief and others.  But when the salt takes in the flavor of its surroundings, and the darkness darkens the light, that is not the ecumenism that the Lord countenances as I see it.

[JoeMo]

Gerry says:

"But when the salt takes in the flavor of its surroundings, and the darkness darkens the light, that is not the ecumenism that the Lord countenances as I see it." (Emphasis mine).

 

I respectfully submit that your analogy is flawed.  It is impossible to "darken light".  Wherever darkness exists, light drives away the darkness.  I cannot think of a possible event that would cause darkness to pierce light; so why should it happen in the spiritual world? Darkness only increases as the light recedes; or as we hide from the light.  Could stepping into the light increase clarity and vision for all parties?

[Lauralea]

Salt may lose its savor according to Jesus and a little leaven may leaven the whole lump. If the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness.

Many shall come in my name and shall deceive many. Especially in the last days Jesus said this would happen. So the idea that all doctrine that names the name of Jesus, is correct, is not supported by the Bible.

However, I agree that in health meetings, serving the poor, visiting informally with our friends and other ways, we should connect with others including others who profess Christ. It is when our doctrines and behaviors indiscriminately absorb things from other belief systems I am concerned.

[Gerr]

Gerry says:

"But when the salt takes in the flavor of its surroundings, and the darkness darkens the light, that is not the ecumenism that the Lord countenances as I see it." (Emphasis mine).

 

I respectfully submit that your analogy is flawed.  It is impossible to "darken light".  Wherever darkness exists, light drives away the darkness.  I cannot think of a possible event that would cause darkness to pierce light; so why should it happen in the spiritual world? Darkness only increases as the light recedes; or as we hide from the light.  Could stepping into the light increase clarity and vision for all parties?

Sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it?  Consider what has happened to Europe, the birthplace of the Reformation?  Is Europe the source of spiritual enlightenment today?   No, darkness has engulfed it!  God's Temple once stood on Mt. Moriah.  Today, a mosque stands over it.

 

"But if your eye is evil, your whole body will be full of darkness. Therefore, if the light in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!”

 

International standard version New Testament: version 1.1. (2000). (Print on Demand ed., Mt 6:23). Yorba Linda, CA: The Learning Foundation.

[JoeMo]

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (Matt. 24:9-14)

 

The basis for this betrayal and hate could be "anti-ecumenism".  Will our distaste for other denominations cause us to betray them?  Will other denominations' distaste for SDA's motivate them to betray us?  In the days of end-time persecution, will we be the reasons for the persecution of the "immortal soul people" and "Sunday Keepers"; or will they be the reason for SDAs to be persecuted?  Christians aren't that different from Muslims - we shoot our own wounded and war against ourselves.  It's time to stop.