Women Ordination and Christmas on Dec.25

[carey]

Most Christian disagree that Jesus was born on December 25. However, Christians always and keep joining hand in hand together despite of our disagreement of Dec 25,.... We set aside our argument about Dec 25 to celebrating Christmas all season long with peaceful harmony, joy and love.
 

What a contrast, what an extremely opposite scenario when Adventists talks about women ordination. Especially in N. America, when we can easily see most Adventist leaders proudly attack the worldwide unity of SDA's principal and standard about the policy of Woman Ordination.
 

You know in global capitalism the world's financial is controlled by the super rich mafia, which only 1% out of the world population. The same pattern is happened dealing with women ordination in Adventism!
 

The only Protestant church that reach 200+ countries is the SDA. Unfortunately, with the ego power of American Pride, it's not such a big problem for N. American Adventists to endorse Women Ordination, then willfully neglecting the voices of their brothers and sisters Non American Adventists. What a tragedy!
 

As if in Christmas, isn't it so wonderful if we agree to set aside our argument about Women Ordination and join hand in hand together in our worldwide Advent Movement?
 

The most majority of the SDA population from various backgrounds and various countries live in the uttermost areas. They have no access to multiple pluralism of media, internet, facebook, nor smart phones. See how can they voice their concern about the rebellion of our rich SDAs (about WO) in US and Europe?
 

Probably the only property they have is Bible and the Bible only. So... to be honest, Adventists in remote areas should have clearer understanding of Biblical truth compared to N. American/Western Europe Adventists due to their pluralism society that really don't care anymore to draw the line what is truth vs error because the religion is based on emotion & feeling only (not based on "Thus said the Lord"), including about Women Ordination. Feeling good about WO? Just go for it regardless what the Bible says. Ohh...
 

Like in Christmas day, let Adventists from every nation, kindreth, tongue and people to drop off  and stay away in Ordaining Women for the sake of our Global Unity with self-denial & self-sacrifice, not with ego self-pride and exaltation. Would you please?

[Gregory Matthews]

Carey, perhaps you should set the standard yourself and set the example by not telling people in another country what they should do.

[LifeHiscost]

Gregory, perhaps you should set your own family own and operated church. I don't care about your white supremacy mentality. Extremely racist!!! Perhaps you're uncomfortable with the English speaking SDA but different accent than yours.

 

However the SDA is still a worldwide movement. Too much tithing doesn't automatically mean you are holier than the poorer SDA.

Welcome to the forum, Carey. I like your posts but haven't yet had enough time to cogitate on some of your ideas, in order to give any definitive answers. My first sense of an amicable answer is based on 1 Cor 13.

 

1 Corinthians 13:7

Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening]. emphasis brackets theirs' LHC

 

Although I've known that counsel as a personal guide for many years, some of my suggestions and thoughts are still seen as being distorted so I take comfort in the fact that all of the historical facts surrounding God's closest indicates it isn't going to be the greatest number of people or the most popular proclamations that will survive with applause in these last days.

 

I also rejoice in two other promises of our Lord, for those who joy in His guidance.

 

"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." ....John 8

 

165Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.....Psalms 119

 

Hope you enjoy your fellowship on CA. And while I'm sure the 25th of December isn't the historically correct day of the birth of the Son of Man, He was born so I can see no good reason not to exult in that fact when most others share the celebration then. Merry Christmas!!!

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[carey]

Understandable. But promoting WO while at the same time keep rejecting to make a written statement about SDA liberal mafia that always fall in love in ecumenism and former SDAs, yet keep attacking the worldwide SDA Biblical fundamental beliefs and policy....

 

...which unity they're otherwise engaged into? Jesus love unity, but Satan loves unity too.

[LifeHiscost]

 but Satan loves unity too.

Guess that would be something I can't join you on.

 

…43"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45"But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.…John 8

 

Let me make it clear, this is not a text I am applying to anyone except who Jesus was speaking to and who He was talking with and about.  God is Love, and to apply love to anything about the enemy of souls would seem to me to be an egregious error.

OTOH I think I know where you're coming from and I agree that whatever unity the enemy can come up with that would successfully disassemble the coordination or cooperation of the children of God, would cause him to exult.

 

BTW, are you familiar with the book, The Great Controversy by E.G. White. It has some very telling statements about the successful efforts of the evil one re: God's children in the last days. Hers's a quote from that author from another source.

 

  

In the Scriptures are presented truths that relate especially to our own time. To the period just prior to the appearing of the Son of man, the prophecies of Scripture point, and here their warnings and threatenings pre-eminently apply. The prophetic periods of Daniel, extending to the very eve of the great consummation, throw a flood of light upon events then to transpire. The book of Revelation is also replete with warning and instruction for the last generation. The beloved John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, portrays the fearful and thrilling scenes connected with the close of earth’s history, and presents the duties and dangers of God’s people. None need remain in ignorance, none need be unprepared for the coming of the day of God.{RH September 25, 1883, par. 6}

It is not enough to have an intellectual knowledge of the truth. This alone cannot give the light and understanding essential to salvation. There must be an entrance of the word into the heart. It must be set home by the power of the Holy Spirit. The will must be brought into harmony with its requirements. Not only the intellect but the heart and conscience must concur in the acceptance of the truth.{RH September 25, 1883, par. 7} 

 

Keep looking up brother!

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Kevin H]

The issue is are you going to read the Bible and the Bible only as filtered by your traditions and imaginations and what you think the Bible should be saying; or are you willing to look at the history and culture to understand the Bible clearer.

[whbae]

As far as I know the Bible is not against WO. Look at the  Israelites how they treated women. Take a look at Lot who wanted to give up his own daughters for the strangers in his house to be abused by men in his town.  Then, in Judge 19, a Levite throws  his concubine out the gate to be sexually abused and she died.  The the Levite cuts the body into 12 pieces.

This was the culture of Israelites and this culture came down through the ages.  Is there any wonder why some men treat the women as they do even in present days? 

[carey]

2000+ years of Christiany. 100+ years of Seventh-day Adventists. Never had any problem with the WO issue. Until the last 30 years... Especially within the most recent years...

 

Though cultures, science, society, "progressiveness",  habits and moods are keep changing up and down, on and off all the time....but Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

[Gregory Matthews]

O.K. Carey, you never had any trouble with issues related to the role, place and function of women until they came in conflict with your notions. 

[Tom Wetmore]

Why is that the Adventist Church has lost its original progressive spirit? The full particpation of women in preaching, teaching and leadership in the Church was clearly evident from the very beginning of the Advent Movement. After the death of EGW it seems we began a slide into conservative fundamentalism and slowly relegated women to traditional roles only, until the 1970's. The opportunity was ripe then to regain our original footing on this issue, but it seems that conservative fundamentalism had become so deeply entrenched that the opportunity was squandered, forcing us into another 40 years of wandering in the wilderness of doubt and resistance to the idea. We have spent decades dithering over this. We stand on the banks of the river. Will we be able to cross over, or will our fears force us backward once again?

[carey]

Preaching, teaching and leadership is one thing. Go ahead and do it. But the mandatory and pre-requisite for women to be ordained first is another thing.

 

We have 1 million SDA in N. America. Certainly a little more than half are women. Please stop making any "silent statement" or "silent suggestion" that EVERY SDA WOMEN are automatically pro women ordination.

 

"Equality" should be the false statement for political agenda and finally become literally a huge issue before the General Conference session 2015. The solid facts that SDA women which against women ordination are NEVER given such an EQUAL time and opporunity to speak up nor to write any articles about WO in certain conferences, union conference and NAD has been raising up serious anger within SDA women around the world (true story). Equality? Never. In fact, that's not a fair attitude.

 

Hard to understand but... How can you weeping for Equality all the time while at the same time keep rejecting the EQUAL time and opportunity of your fellow sisters that against WO in any official church business meeting???

 

Have you seen any article in any SDA magazine written by those ladies that against WO? I don't think so.

Just simply ask them, Why not? Equality?

 

The only thing we see... that SDA in N. America flooded with women pastors that weeping while sharing their own testimonies to tell how good Jesus is, how wonderful to be a women Pastor, and what a real blessing.

 

Though that's all looks good. Please be aware that those same women Pastors are most likely having the certain project to prevent any opportunity of their fellow sisters that against women ordination to speak up, and their weeping also is an attempt for us to feel guilty and accept their views.

 

Weeping doesn't  make WO permissible.

 

Unless the NAD clearly explain in the written statement of why they never allow the EQUAL time and opportunity for the SDA ladies that against WO, all of this "pro WO: "strategy of weeping"" would be popped up and widely opened in the GC 2015 to every nation, kindreth, tongue and people. Statistics are easily available to show about: 1. Who are allowed to speak during church business meetings, 2. Duration of speaking and 3. Articles  (Pro WO vs Against WO equality statistics)

[Gregory Matthews]

Carey:  I have in my library books and articles written by women who oppose female ordination.  I do not understand how you can say that women are not given equality in their ability to speak against female ordination.  As I see it, there is a plethora of material, written by NAD Females against it.

[carey]

Stay on the topic, Greg. Don't twist the certain real facts which are not in your favor in attempt to get the vague, and stay unlocked. There is NO EVIDENCE that Pacific Union, Columbia Union conference as well as N.America Division would try to make any written statement why they NEVER give such an equal time and opportunity to openly speak up in any official Church Business Meetings or pre-vote meetings.

 

Remember the keypoints: OFFICIAL CHURCH BUSINESS MEETINGS & PRE-VOTE MEETINGS.

 

We're not talking about women that writing books or preachings. But we're dealing with the issue of unfair restriction in the middle of crying of "equality" from pro-WO group.

 

To be honest, in case you'd like to request the statistics, it will crystal clear to show the duration of delivering notes from pro vs against WO in every official meetings.

 

For those who are pro WO, they can freely speak up in as much as 2 hours or more.

Unfortunately, those who are against WO, they should never be allowed to speak up more than 10 minutes--believe it or not!!!

Is there something new about this epidemic? I don't think so.

 

So how can you convince yourself that there is no great disappointment among SDAs outside N.America/Westrern Europe including here that oppose WO?

How can you keep ignoring the facts about the overstretched anger among anti-WO just to secure your feeling?

 

This is not about WO anymore. As previously warned in the late of 2012 by many church leaders outside N.America, "To feel secure that nobody know about this dirty trick to prevent the anti-WO groups to speak up in EQUAL TIME AND OPPORTUNITY...is something like entertaining false feeling. Avoiding to realize how serious the anger of their fellow SDA that against WO should bring more damage than good.

 

This is all much more about confrontation of the offended anti WO group due to unfairness, hidden in the name of "equality".

[Gregory Matthews]

You raised the issue of written materials when you said:

 

Have you seen any article in any SDA magazine written by those ladies that against WO? I don't think so.

Just simply ask them, Why not? Equality?

 

I responded to the topic that you had raised.

 

As to your current focus on discussion at denominational business meetings, control of the discussion has been an issue for many years and for just about any issue that you could mention.

[Tom Wetmore]

Do you see the irony in complaining that women against WO don't have enough opportunities to speak out against it? Or that you are trying to advance your view against equality by complaining of supposed inequality in treatment of women against equality? Consider that a primary Biblical argument against WO is the text saying that women should be silent and be in subjection to their husbands. Why should they want such an opportunity anyway!

[carey]

NIce try, Tom.

 

I hope you never believe the serious concern in the worldwide SDA communities about 2 hours vs 10 minutes. NO! you don't have to. Just convince yourself that the anger about "equality" is just a fabricated story created by anti WO group, then sleep nicely.

Peace, peace.

[Gregory Matthews]

Carey:  Well, you are not helping your position at all.  Go ahead and tell us some more.

[carey]

LOL....  hahhaa... don't worry Greg, How come you may think that you may cooperative with our worldwide SDA policy about WO? Everybody knows that the pro WO groups might have no room for giving up their own policy for the sake of global unity in our church.

[Tom Wetmore]

Opposing WO is not really about unity.  Those who raise that issue are actually more concerned about uniformity. 

 

Here is an EGW quote especially for you, carey - 

 

 

The secret of unity is found in the equality of believers in Christ.  [RH December 22, 1891]

[carey]

Tom, Just be careful because the issue right now (pre-GC session) is not about WO anymore but most likely about "The great disappointment" to see the real facts how strong the effort of pro WO to silence the voice of SDA ladies that are against WO. While GC comitee still working on it they just don't understand why the delegates/reps of N. America and Western Europe rejected the request for them to write a statement why the SDA ladies that against WO are banned to speak up. There must be reason behind their restriction...... and there must be certain reason too about their rejection not to publicly write/explain the banned.

 

We shall see the parade of "Success Stories" of Women Pastors @ GC session to tell the world how Jesus loves, lead and approved their ministry as women pastors. Be ready to listen their fantastic testimonies along with the weeping to convince even more---hoping to gain more sympathy.

 

But nobody should be surprised if  not even one of SDA women which are against WO would be allowed to speak up at the same GC session. This "success stories" has been already well-prepared with brilliant strategy so that SDA worldwide may accept their view (pro WO) and for us (anti-WO) to feel guilty.

 

The next step is homosexuality. What after that? Promoting Sunday Law by watering down & making fun of the importance of the Biblical Sabbath? I don't know (yet) But I know that my Living God will intervene.

[Tom Wetmore]

Not even a real issue. Nobody is silencing anyone. Nobody is banning anyone opposed to WO, male or female, from speaking up. Nobody is restricting anyone from speaking up or writing in opposition. You really need to get out more and pay closer attention to what is really happening.

It really seems that you are far more bothered by the open opportunity finally for those in favor of WO to speak up and write and tell their stories - Yes real genuine success stories! Perhaps you would prefer the muzzling of them, so the status quo can continue?

Why are you so uncomfortable hearing about the real successful ministry of women pastors? You do realize that many of the most successful women pastors are not even in North America and Europe, don't you? And are you aware that the Division with by far the most women pastors is also not North American or European? That Division strongly supports WO. (There are 5 Divisions that support WO)

Edited December 27, 2014 by Tom Wetmore

[LynnDel]

I must admit that I am confused by most of what I am reading here.

 

Here's one point that I need clarification on: You said, Carey: "Preaching, teaching and leadership is one thing. Go ahead and do it. But the mandatory and pre-requisite for women to be ordained first is another thing."

 

It sounds like you don't have a problem with women preaching, teaching, and in leadership. But you follow with words that sound like you have a problem with women being ordained to do those things. However, the Bible verses that anti-WO advocates use are those that address the issue of preaching, teaching, and leadership. I haven't seen verses that say anything about ordination, for or against. What Bible verse leads you to say, "women to be ordained first is another thing"?

 

So preaching, teaching, and leadership is okay, but ordination is not -- that's what I understand you to be saying. Am I following you correctly? 

[Kevin H]

The problem with some of the posts here is that they are full of ideas that the authors THINK the Bible is saying and reading ideas into Paul's words of what they think is being said, but which does not hold up to close Bible study.

 

For example one post said that for 2,000 years there was no issue about women's ordination and that it has only been an issue for the past 30 years.

 

However, there was a big debate over women's ordination 200 years before Jesus was born which carried over to the years of his life and ministry. The point was that back then it was the conservatives who wanted to CONTINUE to ordain women and the liberals wanted Judaism to STOP ordaining women. And as you look at this historical context of the debate you will realize that Jesus ordained women.

 

We find places where Paul does not practice what you are claiming that he is preaching. So either Paul was a hypocrite or you misunderstand your proof texts. And if you were to study your texts closely you will learn that you are misunderstanding them and they do not contradict Paul's practice, and that Paul was positive for the ordination of women.

 

And a little more than 100 years ago the New York Conference of Seventh-day Adventists wanted to ordain women. The Atlantic Union approved of ordaining women. They would have started ordaining women except that General Conference President A. G. Daniels was visiting. Now elder Daniels agreed with them and said that New York should start ordaining women. However he asked for them to wait. He said that too many people were confused on what the Bible was actually teaching on this topic and would get upset at women being ordained. He said that he was going to ask Mrs. White to start writing some articles to try to educate the church. Mrs. White had the chance to nip the problem in the bud. However she did write the articles about women in ministry. But this was towards the end of Mrs. White's life and she soon died, but she started the process, but some historical issues put the topic on the back burner where it was forgotten.

 

Posts here do not show awareness to these issues. You are hanging your hope on reading into some proof texts and assuming that this was a new idea. However the Bible teaches the ordination of women. Jesus ordained women, Paul recognized the ordination of women, and Mrs. White instead of stopping the ordination of women started to educate in what the General Conference President was to lead to the ordination of women.

[Gregory Matthews]

As I have often said; The Biblical issue is the role that women should have in spirituality.  In is not ordination.  Look closely at the texts often cited which are believed written by Paul.  Those texts do no mention ordination.  Speaking and remaining silent in services does not relate to ordination.  Speaking and remaining silent related to a role. 

 

When Paul wrote about speaking and remaining silent he did not list an exception.  E.G.  He did not write that women should remain silent in church unless they exercised the gift of prophecy.  Whatever he meant, he did not qualify what he wrote with an exception.

 

I am reminded by a clergyman of another denomination who once said to me:  I cannot understand how a denomination that had a  woman, Ellen White, as an early leader is having this debate.  I agree.

[carey]

Tom Wetmore:

"Nobody is banning anyone opposed to WO, male or female, from speaking up."

"There are 5 Divisions that support WO"

 

I thought you're to be honest at least to yourself Tom.... especially about "5 Divisions"! Leadership? Yes. Church's members within those 5 divisions? NO!

 

There is no evidence that the all 5 Divisions which support WO are backed up by their own members' voice. That's the voice of their leaders only...ignoring the democracy process in each Church Business meetings.

 

Every church meetings recently are specifically DESIGNED to minimized the involvement of lay members, "information upon request only" plattform, and controlled merely by big bosses as if the stockholders or business owners only. No follow up, no open discussion, no equal time given, no posting about disaggrement allowed by any tithe givers.

 

No  evidence about EQUAL TIME AND OPPORTUNITY either..

 

Happy "equality"!