China would win war with USA

[bevin]

Quote:

---

then, Bevin, from that fact alone, do you conclude that the two women are indeed one and the same? Or, do you assert other supporting information as well?

---

As I pointed out - there ARE NO VISIONS in Revelation that have two women in them.

/Bevin

[archierieus]

Quote:

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bevin said:

Quote:

---

then, Bevin, from that fact alone, do you conclude that the two women are indeed one and the same? Or, do you assert other supporting information as well?

---

As I pointed out - there ARE NO VISIONS in Revelation that have two women in them.

/Bevin

---

And that is your textual evidence? That's it? Nothing more?

[bevin]

Lets see...

Supporting my position is a complete lack of ANY vision containing ANY evidence that there is two women

Supporting the position that there are two women at the same time is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL

I have had discussions with you before. Your style is to continously promise to supply evidence for your wrong positions, but never to actually supply any.

If you supply evidence, I will continue this discussion with you. If you just keep asking questions, I won't bother to answer them.

/Bevin

[Neil D]

Quote:

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As I pointed out - there ARE NO VISIONS in Revelation that have two women in them.

---

And how do you support a negitive statement with evidence??? It seems to me that if there were 2 women in the same scene, you should be able to show that.....

[Ron Lambert]

Bevin, are you reaching the point where you are forgetting everything you ever knew? If you ever had any connection with Seventh-day Adventists (and you said you did), you know the logical means by which many of these prophetic symbols are identified from the Bible's own definitions. I don't mind going back to the most elementary basics with new people, but you seem to be in the process of steadily denying more and more of what you once accepted. Ellen G. White warned that when people turn their backs on the truth, it is not long before they no longer remember what they formerly knew. I've got better things to do than enter into endless argument with someone who is determined to dis everything he hears (or reads). Do you have any real interest in knowing the truth? I'm sorry it has come to this, but we have reached the point where I must question your motives.

[archierieus]

Quote:

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bevin said:

Lets see...

Supporting my position is a complete lack of ANY vision containing ANY evidence that there is two women

---

Actually, three women are described in the later chapters of Revelation:

1) the woman clothed with the sun, in ch. 12

2) the mother of all harlots, in ch. 17

3) the bride, ch. 21.

Thus, the pure woman is described in one chapter, the harlot woman is described in another chapter and the bride in still another chapter. BTW, as for the bride, she is identified as the New Jerusalem. (Rev. 21:2, 9) The harlot woman is not the New Jerusalem. The harlot woman is drunk with the blood of the saints, according to ch. 17, and is seated on the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns. Surely, Bevin, you do not propose that this harlot woman is the New Jerusalem? Or do you?

Then, there is the woman clothed with the sun, in ch. 12. Her offspring are described as keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. By contrast, the offspring of the harlot woman are described as harlots. Clearly, different offspring. Clearly, different mothers.

On its face, looking at the Bible exactly as it reads, three different women are described. Whether they are described in the same chapter, or the same vision, or not, does not per se determine their identity. They don't have to be described in the same chapter, or in the same vision, in order to be separate entities. You have provided no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Quote:

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Supporting the position that there are two women at the same time is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL

---

In fact, three women are described. You have now shown why they must be described at the same time or, for that matter, even must co-exist, in order to be separate entities. You have provided no evidence in support of your statement that they must co-exist in order to be separete entitites. For that matter, anyone, or any writer, can describe any number of women, or men or whatever. He may describe them at different times, in different places. His doing so does not automatically make them the same person. There must be something more, to do so.

Quote:

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I have had discussions with you before. Your style is to continously promise to supply evidence for your wrong positions, but never to actually supply any.

---

Ah, yes, we have had discussions before. I do recall. For example, at one point you asserted that a person does not need to ask God to forgive his or her sins, because Jesus paid the price for all our sins. After several pages of discussion, I recall that you backed away from that position. On the same thread, you also asserted that the Israelites did not need to offer sacrifices when they had sinned. Once again, after lengthy discussion, you backed off of that position. A little later on the thread, you asserted that on the Day of Atonement, a person's neighbors would decide if he or she seemed to show the appropriate attitude for the day. Again, after some discussion, you backed away from that.

Now, on this thread, you have provided no support whatsoever for your unique position, but now are wanting me to give evidence for my position. You are the one who has taken the position that there is only one woman. having stated your position on this thread, it becomes open season. If you have no further evidence for your position, then I guess that is the end of that.

Regards, Dave

[archierieus]

Quote:

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archierieus said:

You have now shown why they must be described at the same time or, for that matter, even must co-exist, in order to be separate entities.

---

That was a typo. It should read, "You have not shown why they must be described at the same time . . ." And, indeed, you have not. Awaiting your evidence to the contrary.

Regards, Dave

[bevin]

Quote:

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If you ever had any connection with Seventh-day Adventists (and you said you did), you know the logical means by which many of these prophetic symbols are identified from the Bible's own definitions.

---

My parents were SDA, I listened to SDA sermons, I went to SDA evangelistic crusades.

At various times I heard the SDA adults reply to the evangelist or to the preacher that

• a prophetic day = literal year
• woman = church (denomination)
• water = people
• earth = unpeopled country
• unpeopled country = USA
• dark day = New England's Dark Day: 19 May 1780"
• that "the great earthquake = Lisbon".

I [:"red"]assumed[/] that these things had well known solid proofs.

Then, as an adult, I began to look for these proofs. What do you know! They don't exist!!! Not only do they not exist, but SDA theologians have been pointing out the lack of proof for over 100 years.

Quote:

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I've got better things to do than enter into endless argument with someone who is determined to dis everything he hears (or reads). Do you have any real interest in knowing the truth?

---

And when I ask for proof there are only two standard replies

• the same old tired non-proofs stated by someone who believes them
• followed by "spiritual things are spiritually discerned" - if I can't see that these bogus proofs are correct then obviously I am on the road to ruin

Yes, all my life I have been interested in THE TRUTH. Not in the tired old myths and non-proofs that have been handed down from one person-who-desparately-wants-to-believe-they-have-a-special-insight to another. THE TRUTH - things that can stand up to critical examination.

/Bevin

[bevin]

[:"blue"]"

Rev 12:1. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

[/]

That woman is clearly the social group that produced Jesus - the Jews and other purported followers of God

[:"blue"]

Rev 12:6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.[/]

And she flees from the dragon...

[:"blue"]

Rev 17:3. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.[/]

And here we are in the wilderness again (same word in the original)...

[:"blue"]

Rev 21:2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

...

9. And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11. Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12. And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:[/]

You wrote "Actually, three women are described in the later chapters of Revelation..." Rev 12, 17, 21

but you are wrong. Rev 21 is clearly describing a city, not a woman.

Quote:

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I do recall. ... Again, after some discussion, you backed away from that.

---

Your recollections don't match mine; but I am sure that is simply because we each saw the discussion from very different viewpoints.

/Bevin

[Ron Lambert]

But Bevin, all those things you listed do have Bible proofs. These should be well known to you. Why are you denying them, pretending they do not exist? Let me just take one example. If "water" or "sea" or "river" in Bible prophecy is not a symbol for "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues," as explicitly stated in Revelation 17:15, then the burden is on you to give a better definition from the Bible. If we are wrong, correct us. We want truth. We will not settle for your denial of truth. That is not enough.

[bevin]

Quote:

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But Bevin, all those things you listed do have Bible proofs. These should be well known to you. Why are you denying them, pretending they do not exist?

---

Because they DON'T have the solid proofs that you want to believe are there.

For example, you point to

[:"blue"]

Rev 17:15. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

[/]

You chose one of the most correct of them : in some but not all cases, water in a prophecy does mean many groups of people...

If this was a principle of all prophecies, then the angel would not have to explain this specific instance.

If we look at the other uses within Revelation

Quote:

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Rev 1:15. And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.[:"red"]Not people here[/]

Rev 7:17. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters[:"red"]Not people here[/]: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Rev 8:9. And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11. And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters[:"red"]Not people here[/], because they were made bitter.

Rev 11:6. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain[:"red"]Not people here[/] not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Rev 12:15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Rev 14:2. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Rev 14:7. Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.[:"red"]Not people here[/]

Rev 16:3. And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

4. And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; [:"red"]Not people here[/]and they became blood.

Rev 16:12. And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up[:"red"]Not obviously people here[/], that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Rev 19:6. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Rev 21:6. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water[:"red"]Not people here[/] of life freely.

Rev 22:1. And he shewed me a pure river of water[:"red"]Not people here[/] of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

---

So, sometimes it means people. Sometimes it means other things. It is NOT a slam-dunk that waters=people, ...

/Bevin

[bevin]

Quote:

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Thelr latest technology is that technology which they stole from us, so our military surely knows about it.

---

Indian Air Force, in war games, gives US a run

Christian Science Monitor article

...

But there are some signs that America's premier fighter jet, the F-16 Fighting Falcon, is losing ground to the growing sophistication of Russian-made fighter planes, and that the US should be more wary about presuming global air superiority - the linchpin of its military might.

...

Military experts say the joint exercises occurred at a time when America's fighter jet prowess is slipping. Since the US victories in the first Gulf War, a war dependent largely on air power, the Russians and French have improved the aviation electronics (avionics) and weapons capabilities of their Sukhoi and Mirage 2000 fighter aircraft. These improvements have given countries like India, which use the Sukhois and Mirages, a rough parity with US fighter planes like the F-16 and F-15C. China, too, now has 400 late-model Sukhois.

Yet, while the Indian Air Force designed the exercises to India's advantage - forcing pilots to fight "within visual range" rather than using America's highly advanced "beyond visual range" sensing equipment - both observers and participants admit that Indian aircraft and personnel performed much better than expected.

The Su-30 MKI "is an amazing jet that has a lot of maneuverability," Capt. Martin Mentch told an Air Force publication, AFPN. Maneuverability is key for missions of visual air combat.

If it turns out the US Air Force did, in fact, get their clocks cleaned, it will have been the second time. In Cope India 2004, an air combat exercise that took place near the Indian city of Gwalior, US F-15s were eliminated in multiple exercises against Indian late-model MiG-21 Fishbeds as fighter escorts and MiG-27 Floggers. In the 2005 exercises in Kalaikundi air base near Calcutta, Americans were most impressed by the MiG-21 Bisons and the Su-30 MKIs.

[Derrell M]

What function do the B2s and the B1-Bs have in maintaining air superiority, and does anyone else have comparable or superior aircraft in that class?

How about the stealth fighters? Same questions regarding them.

I recently saw a B2 for the first time. I was totally awed!

[archierieus]

Quote:

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bevin said:

[:"blue"]"

Rev 12:1. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

[/]

That woman is clearly the social group that produced Jesus - the Jews and other purported followers of God

---

Clearly? Social group? Please provide Scripture to support that.

Quote:

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[:"blue"]

Rev 17:3. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.[/]

And here we are in the wilderness again (same word in the original)...

---

Immaterial. Wilderness can include any uninhabited place. No ID as to place or to match the identity of the two woman. Secondly, Rev. 12 says that God had prepared a place for the woman. That is not stated in Rev. 17.

Quote:

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[:"blue"]

Rev 21:2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

...

9. And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11. Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12. And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:[/]

---

You will note that this is not described as being in a wilderness.

Quote:

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You wrote "Actually, three women are described in the later chapters of Revelation..." Rev 12, 17, 21

but you are wrong. Rev 21 is clearly describing a city, not a woman.

---

Last time I checked, a 'bride' is a woman--although symbolic, I would say. BTW did you know that Babylon, the woman, is also a city. Take a look at Rev. 17, 18.

It is too late right now to continue, but I do have further response tomorrow.

Regards, Dave

[Neil D]

Quote:

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Quote:

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bevin said:

"

Rev 12:1. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

That woman is clearly the social group that produced Jesus - the Jews and other purported followers of God

---

Clearly? Social group? Please provide Scripture to support that.

---

Um...if one were to look at the above quote, one would see the scripture support there...I belive that it is Revelation 12 and ff...

Perhaps you are complaining about the phrase "social group"..?

[bevin]

Neil,

He is just engaging in his usual debating style - ask for definitions/clarifications of everything you say, defines nothing he says, and makes promises he doesn't keep.

In this case, he can't even distinguish between a vision of a city and a vision of a woman.

Also, note, he is completely failing to provide any evidence for the simultaneous existence of two women.

And he is making out to be my problem - asking me to provide evidence.

If it wasn't such fun to poke holes in his argument style, I'd stick him on my kill list.

/Bevin

[bevin]

B1B's are almost irrelevant. If you have air superiority, you can use B52's. If not, then they are not stealthy and a late model Sukhoi or MiG or Mirage would have no trouble bringing one down.

The B2 question is interesting. They have never been tried against a modern air defense system. It is known that they are visible to long wavelength radar, such as the Australian Jindalee system.

They are also (of course) visible in daytime and in the infrared.

But what country with ICBM's with nuclear warheads sits still and lets you sneak into their country and bomb them? Instead they simply announce that they too, like the USA, will regard a large conventional attack on their territory as sufficient cause for an ICBM/nuclear counter attack - then they ICBM/nuke every US carrier group and air station that is poised to strike them...

This is what the USA politicians and public doesn't understand. Having a superior conventional force simply causes a powerful enough adversary to go ICBM/nuclear rather than loose.

This is why it is important that we learn to start to use cooperation rather than threats as our main diplomatic tool.

This is why George W Bush is such a disaster for the USA.

/Bevin

[archierieus]

Quote:

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Neil D said:

Perhaps you are complaining about the phrase "social group"..?

---

Correct. that term does not appear in the passage.

Regards, Dave

[Ron Lambert]

Bevin, the instances you cite are cases where the words "water" amd "waters" are not used as prophetic symbols, but as descriptive metaphors. "The sound of many waters?" Come on, you can see the difference between that and the woman "sitteth on many waters," can't you?

Actually, there is a commonality even in the examples you cite with the use of these terms as prophetic symbols. If you have ever noticed, the sound of a stadium full of people is at times surprisingly like the sound of the sea. God's metaphors and prophetic symbols, always exhibit this sort of profound appropriateness.

"Rain" is not in the same category as water on the earth. The most common use of rain as a prophetic symbol is to refer to the pouring out of the Holy Spirit in what is called "the Latter Rain," which ripens the "crop" for the harvest.

I find that people who give evidence that they are resisting the Holy Spirit show a serious breakdown in their basic ability to discern metaphors, similes, and prophetic symbols, and become hopelessly confused about such things, as you seem to be. It has been said that the ability to draw proper analogies is one of the surest indicators of intelligence. Thus a ready receptiveness to the Holy Spirit seems to be a key requirement for intelligence. It also appears to be true that the study of the Bible, especially Bible prophecy, in companionship with the Holy Spirit, actually improves our minds and increases our intelligence.

I do not often mention this, because it seems boastful, but in demonstration of that last point, a year after I became a Seventh-day Adventist at the age of 15, my I.Q. as tested in school was 106. Two years later it was tested in school as being 125. Two years after that it was tested in school as 150. I have not had any further standardized I.Q. tests since leaving college over 30 years ago. In my college psychology course I was told that I.Q. is never supposed to vary more than a couple of points over a lifetime. Through those years I studied the Bible regularly, with a special interest in Bible prophecy, thanks to my walking in the way of the Advent Message. I have continued to do so in the years since then.

I can testify that it does seem to me that studying Bible prophecy especially has improved my ability to reason clearly and make close distinctions and draw valid analogies in all other areas of life.

The Holy Spirit, over time, seems to give us a sort of "brain boost." But that is no less than what the Bible promises: "But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him." (James 1:5; NASB) Note that wisdom is not mere knowledge, but rather is the ability to acquire knowledge and use it properly.

[Neil D]

Quote:

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archierieus said:

Quote:

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Neil D said:

Perhaps you are complaining about the phrase "social group"..?

---

Correct. that term does not appear in the passage.

---

So, you are denying that the woman in Revelation 12, generally speaking, symbolizes the Jews, a social group, who produced the child? Or are you, being specific and are saying that the woman in Rev 12 was Mary? Just what are you attempting to say in relation to Bevin's comments?

Bevin was known to have said-

Quote:

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He is just engaging in his usual debating style - ask for definitions/clarifications of everything you say, defines nothing he says, and makes promises he doesn't keep.

---

Yeah, I noticed that he doesn't like to be specific...It also undermines his credibility. He likes to hide behind everyone else of authority, but refuses to stand up and be his own authority, which also undermines his credibility.

Quote:

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Also, note, he is completely failing to provide any evidence for the simultaneous existence of two women.

---

Well, Bevin, to be fair, he is attempting to say that the vision in Revelation is one LONG single vision and there are several women in that LONG single vision. Apparently, John's vision doesn't have chapters or changed scenes in it....Which is sad as a easy reading shows changes in scenes.

Quote:

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And he is making out to be my problem - asking me to provide evidence.

---

Yeah, shoot the messenger if you can't shoot the message. It is of interest to me that when he requires you to give evidence that there are NOT 2 women in one scene/vision, it is quite illogical. To insist that a person prove a negitive is ludicrous....It is tantamount to answering the question "have you stopped beating your wife?". If you answer no, it shows that you are currently beating her. If you answer yes, it shows that you have in the past beat her. It presupposes assumptions that are not valid. The assumption here is that you CAN prove a negitive. You can not.

Quote:

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If it wasn't such fun to poke holes in his argument style, I'd stick him on my kill list.

---

[fatherly mode -on] Now now, Bevin....be a good boy and play nice...

[archierieus]

Bevin is the one who used the term 'social group.' That term does not occur in the passage. Bevin needs to give Scriptural support for his use of the term 'social group.' I am waiting to see that support. The burden is on him.

[Neil D]

Quote:

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archierieus said:

Bevin is the one who used the term 'social group.' That term does not occur in the passage. Bevin needs to give Scriptural support for his use of the term 'social group.' I am waiting to see that support. The burden is on him.

---

Again, do you deny that the Jews, as a social group, failed to produce the messiah as depicted by the woman who gave birth to a child and was caught up in heaven?

[bevin]

Ron,

(a) I agree that waters sometimes refers to social groups

( I agree that it is sometimes a metaphor / simile

© But if you go back and look at the uses I quote, you will find there are others where neither of these explanations works - such as the wormwood instance

/Bevin

[bevin]

Simply put, I used the phrase Social Group because I don't see any way of determining whether the symbol means

(a) Mary

( Mary and Joseph

© The true believers living in Judea at that time

(d) The true believers living in Judea up until that time

(e) All true believers living everywhere before that time

(f) Everyone claiming to believe in God living in Judea at that time

(g) Everyone living in Judea at that time

(h) Everyone claiming to believe in God at that time

(i) Everyone claiming to believe in God up until that time

and it really didn't matter which - but I am sure that Archie will argue about it, as yet another of his many distractions from his failures to produce evidence.

/Bevin

[Robert]

Quote:

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bevin said:

Quote:

---

Worry about the USA....From the Bible perspective it is the USA

---

Yeah, right.

There is NO mention of the USA in the Bible. You have to be blatantly biased in your reading to see this particular SDA ink-blot.

/Bevin

---

Rev 13:11 And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13 And he performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.

A study of both Revelation and Daniel will reveal that a beast is representative of earthly powers or kingdoms. Whoever this power is will have to be in a position to, "cause as many as do not worship the image of the [1st] beast to be killed." So it is possible that the United States will be this 2nd kingdom.

But the issue to keep in mind is the general theme of the Bible. The issue has always been between the world's false gospel (i.e., appeasing an angry god based on men's works) and the gospel of Jesus Christ as witnessed to in the early Christian Church.

This controversy was first witnessed between two brothers - Cain and Able. Cain brought before God the fruit of his own making, while Able the symbolic lamb signifying faith in Christ's work as his only ticket to heaven.

A few verses to keep in mind:

1 John 4:2 Every spirit [living person] that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 Thess 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you [bTW...the 2nd beast deceives], for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first [other tranlations say, "the falling away"], and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. ...7 For the mystery of sin is already at work; only he [God] who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way....9 the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders [see Rev 13:13], 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth [the gospel] so as to be saved.