EMERGENCE CHRISTIANITY'S IMPACT

[bonnie]

EMERGENCE CHRISTIANITY'S IMPACT  ON THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST MOVEMENT

January 9, 2015 John Jovan Markovic

Many people are aware of the existence of the emerging/emergent church movement, but few know that the idea of “emerging/emergent church” goes back to the early 20th century. The emerging/emergent church movement is a tangible manifestation of a new way of thinking, a new way of doing Christianity, and a new worldview increasingly referred to as Emergence Christianity. The latter is a broader category, and once understood, it becomes clear that it is in direct opposition to the biblical teachings and biblical worldview. Hence, Emergence Christianity and biblical Christianity are incompatible. This is part one.

- See more at: http://advindicate.com/articles/2015/1/9/emergence-christianitys-impact-on-the-seventh-day-adventist-movement#sthash.eJjJqUU6.dpuf

 

 

 

 

 

20140808-1045-JohnJovanMarkovi-EmergenceChristia...mpactontheSeventh-dayAdventistMovementPart1-

 

[Gregory Matthews]

The above URL simply takes one to an "advindicate" website along with comments promoting its agenda and attacking The One Project.  Along with the typical adverse comments about The One Project, it seems to rely a lot on 2nd hand statements and "guilt by association."

 

 

My overall view is that these critics cannot seem to come up with anything new that is more than a rehash of what has been said over and over.

[CoAspen]

Thanks for the review!

[bonnie]

The above URL simply takes one to an "advindicate" website along with comments promoting its agenda and attacking The One Project.  Along with the typical adverse comments about The One Project, it seems to rely a lot on 2nd hand statements and "guilt by association."

 

 

My overall view is that these critics cannot seem to come up with anything new that is more than a rehash of what has been said over and over.

I would assume that the man in question would dismiss your "opinion" as well as a rehash as to what has been said.

With the position he holds and the education he has it would seem that is opinion is as valid as yours or any one else on this board.

 

 

Biography:

John Jovan Markovic is an Associate Professor of Modern European and Church History at Andrews University, Berrien Springs, MI. He joined the faculty in 1990.

Born in Serbia, in former Yugoslavia, Markovic earned a bachelor's degree in theology and history and graduated with honors in 1982 from Andrews University. In 1986 he received a master's degree and in 1990, received his doctorate degree from Bowling Green State University, Bowling Green, OH. His dissertation was on the radicalization and socialization of the Russian radical youth in pre-revolutionary Russia. 

Prior to assuming his current position, Markovic taught at Bowling Green State University and University of Toledo in Ohio.

He has attended several seminars and institutes in such places as St. Petersburg and Moscow, Russia; Washington, D.C.; Harvard University, Cambridge, Mass.; and Oxford University, England.

Markovic's research and publications are currently focused on the history of ideas, the history of anti-Semitism and Christian theology, the history of Jewish-Christian relations, and Church history. He is currently working on a book to be entitled, Church, Synagogue and State.

He is a member of the American Historical Association, American Association for the Advancement of Slavic Studies, Phi Alpha Theta, North American Society for Serbian Studies, Association of Seventh-day Adventist Historians, Association of Adventist Forums, and Conference on Faith and History.

He is married to Vesna Markovic. They have a son, John-Philip, and a daughter, Christianna. They also have a family cat named Mango.

 

Current Research or Professional Activities:

Dr. Markovic teaches the following classes:

Civilizations and Ideas I section 2

Civilizations and Ideas II section 2

History of the Christian Church I

History of the Christian Church II

Revolutions and Reactions, 1789-1917

Senior Seminar

He also team-teaches Western Heritage I, an honors course.

Dr. Markovic recently attended a conference of Dialogue between Christians, Jews and Muslims at Grand Valley State University in Michigan.  He is also working on a book analyzing various world views which may become a textbook for freshmen college courses on western civilization.

[Gregory Matthews]

Well, with his background, I assume that he can do much better.

[Lauralea]

He says in the beginning of the taped presentation he is just giving a summary due to time but taught a 15 week seminar on it last semester, and that he had to omit material that would make the presentation longer than 45 minutes. . Maybe he will publish the seminar contents sometime, but if this is just meant to be a brief intro  it may be material known to those familiar with the subject. 

[Tom Wetmore]

Well, with his background, I assume that he can do much better.

I have found over the years that background, experience, research, education, specialized expertise or anything of the sort counts for very little to some people, unless whatever is said by that expert validates or confirms the reader or listener's own thinking. It is all the more ironic to see those typically critical or skeptical of higher education and those with graduate and professional degrees laying aside all their critical thinking along those lines when they find that educated person saying what they want to hear.

In my own professional experience, I have found at times that the carefully considered analysis and researched legal judgment of a lawyer can often carry less weight than the off the cuff contrary opinion of the complete stranger in the street if that contrary opinion is what Someone wants to hear.

But more to your point, education does not always override a personal flaw of forming an opinion and gathering and paying attention only to information that supports that opinion vs gathering and analyzing the evidence to arrive at an conclusion about it. For some, no amount of education will cure that defect. But they often become the successful and acclaimed experts of their own opinion among those who agree with them, reinforced uncritically by some sort of credentials.

[bonnie]

I have found over the years that background, experience, research, education, specialized expertise or anything of the sort counts for very little to some people, unless whatever is said by that expert validates or confirms the reader or listener's own thinking. It is all the more ironic to see those typically critical or skeptical of higher education and those with graduate and professional degrees laying aside all their critical thinking along those lines when they find that educated person saying what they want to hear.

 

As I have been accused in the past of being against higher education, The majority of my family and extended family have that "higher education"  They are Dr's RN's ,college professors,soon to be a second attorney (women by the way)two conference presidents, etc.My grandchildren of college age are all in or have graduated  college with the exception of one,who has young children to care for.Rather than hire a substitute mother for her children  she is content to wait until they are older and in school full time. One National Scholarship winner with a free ride for four years of college and it is looking as if we will have a second this year. It isn't "higher education that I am against,it is being so arrogant because of higher education that if someone bent over the arrogance would run out

 

In my own professional experience, I have found at times that the carefully considered analysis and researched legal judgment of a lawyer can often carry less weight than the off the cuff contrary opinion of the complete stranger in the street if that contrary opinion is what Someone wants to hear.

 

 

 

Would I take the opinion of an attorney in religious matters? Nope,especially those that are of the liberal camp. Nor do most people go to the stranger in the street for information

A few years ago we had an opportunity to meet with several attorney's.Odd how many different opinions there was from the experts. One disagreed with all and we chose him. Most here knows how that turned out

 

 

But more to your point, education does not always override a personal flaw of forming an opinion and gathering and paying attention only to information that supports that opinion vs gathering and analyzing the evidence to arrive at an conclusion about it. For some, no amount of education will cure that defect. But they often become the successful and acclaimed experts of their own opinion among those who agree with them, reinforced uncritically by some sort of credentials. 

 

 

 

That speaks to a lot of "experts doesn't" it? You are right,no amount of education can cure some of their arrogance .

For me I will rely on the Ultimate expert,rather than an attorney or anyone else with "higher education"

[Lauralea]

Starting about minute 15 or 16 it is quite specific and for me a learning experience.

[Gail]

I like Markovic! I once listened to a series by him on the subject. It was one of the best I heard

[Gerr]

"A new way of thinking, a new way of doing Christianity."   Sounds like this may be the counterfeit of the "Revival and Reformation" that is to come to the Church?

[debbym]

There is no substitute in the Christian walk, for just taking time to be with Jesus.  We are told that true spirituality is hated by legalists and the self righteous.

 

The enemy hits people to turn them to the left, and then hits them to turn to the right.  Only the Spirit can lead a person into the center of God's will.

 

I am not going to find my way to the center of God's will by any professor of religion, but rather just by spending time in the presence of God.  Being centered in Christ it is not something that can be packaged and served by others.

 

This takes away from me the fear of falsehood, and the fear of the zealots, and the fear of false revival and reformation.  My fear is that i by my choice i am fully capable of  refusing the invitation of the Holy Spirit, and self righteously take it upon myself to sit in judgement of others.

 

Jesus knows His own, we do not have to figure out who is who.  We need to just know Jesus, and by knowing Jesus we know God.  "And this is eternal life that they may know thee and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent," from John 17. 

 

Why fear the emergent church movement?  why fear Sunday worship? Why fear anything man does?  Why fear apostate Christian religion?  None of these things are new.  They have all been around for a long time,  and evaporate in the presence of God.

[JoeMo]

debbym says:

"Why fear the emergent church movement? why fear Sunday worship? Why fear anything man does? Why fear apostate Christian religion? None of these things are new. They have all been around for a long time, and evaporate in the presence of God."

 

Amen Deb!  Fear stems from doubt; and is a tool of the devil.  If we are confident of what we believe and why we believe it, there should be no fear of man-made religiosity.  Didn't Gamaliel say:

"if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!” (Acts 5:38-39)

 

[bonnie]

 

 

 

 

Why fear the emergent church movement?  why fear Sunday worship? Why fear anything man does?  Why fear apostate Christian religion?  None of these things are new.  They have all been around for a long time,  and evaporate in the presence of God.

Why is it automatically assumed that if someone disagrees  with the Emergent Church Movement it is based in fear? Have those that have determined that observing the 7th day is biblical and what we should be doing done out of fear of Sunday worship?

[JoeMo]

Why is it automatically assumed that if someone disagrees  with the Emergent Church Movement it is based in fear? Have those that have determined that observing the 7th day is biblical and what we should be doing done out of fear of Sunday worship?

Mostly because of the fear that oozes from most of the posts that come out against the Emergent Church. Fear of Sunday worship may not be my primary motivation for keeping the Sabbath; but the way many people fear and loathe the idea of a Sunday Law, they must fear it.  I'm not afraid of a law mandating worship on Sunday - worshipping the God of heaven 2 days a week doesn't scare me.  What scares me is a law prohibiting Sabbath worship (although I don't see any indications that one is coming); or a law mandating Friday worship of Allah.

[bonnie]

Mostly because of the fear that oozes from most of the posts that come out against the Emergent Church. Fear of Sunday worship may not be my primary motivation for keeping the Sabbath; but the way many people fear and loathe the idea of a Sunday Law, they must fear it.  I'm not afraid of a law mandating worship on Sunday - worshipping the God of heaven 2 days a week doesn't scare me.  What scares me is a law prohibiting Sabbath worship (although I don't see any indications that one is coming); or a law mandating Friday worship of Allah.

Maybe it is your judgement that it is fear that oozes from most of the posts.Rather than fear as you claim it is simply some see it as headed in the wrong direction.Or shouldn't they be entitled to that opinion without having others dismiss their opinion as fear.

 

You have an interesting take on the Sunday Law. I doubt when that time comes the Sunday law will mandate worshiping the God of heaven 2 days a week.Mandating worship on any day would raise a red flag for most.  Maybe being aware of what is taking place and firmly grounded in what you believe is fear to some 

[CoAspen]

 

....... worshipping the God of heaven 2 days a week doesn't scare me.

 

I  always thought we were to 'worship' Him everyday of the week!!

[bonnie]

I  always thought we were to 'worship' Him everyday of the week!!

I doubt that is what was meant by that statement.  Maybe we should be mandated/forced to "worship Him" everyday. Perhaps you do not see anything special about the Sabbath and dismiss those that do as doing so because of fear. 

But there are still those SDA's that do see something special and set aside about the Sabbath as well as "worshiping Him every day

[pierrepaul]

...but the way many people fear and loathe the idea of a Sunday Law, they must fear it.

 

What is curious about traditional SdA eschatology is that if (i) the Sunday Law must perforce precede the Second Coming, and (ii) the Second Coming is our great hope, then should we not welcome the Sunday Law?

[Lauralea]

In the recorded seminar there is a story of the president of the National Council of Churches coming to Andrews University and asking a group of Adventists if they would be willing to teach others how to keep the Sabbath. There was a resounding yes. Then he asked if they would be willing to make how to keep the Sabbath primary and when (what day ) to keep it secondary. There was a resounding no. He then said he could see they should not join the movement. The emergent church joins together on areas they can agree on, and ignores doctrinal differences. The 10 commandments is not something we should be ignoring, and this is the bottom line. To really join together we would have to giive up our fundamental beliefs. He did not ask if we would be willing to help give meals to the poor here. He was addressing our fundamental beliefs.

[debbym]

Sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear. 1 Peter 3:15.{Mar 45.1}

 

God will arouse His people; if other means fail, heresies will come in among them, which will sift them, separating the chaff from the wheat. The Lord calls upon all who believe His word to awake out of sleep. Precious light has come, appropriate for this time.... Believers are not to rest in suppositions and ill-defined ideas of what constitutes truth. Their faith must be firmly founded upon the word of God so that when the testing time shall come and they are brought before councils to answer for their faith they may be able to give a reason for the hope that is in them, with meekness and fear.{Mar 45.3}

 

From the devotional " maranatha " for today.  Let us welcome heresies as God's cleansing work.

[JoeMo]

What is curious about traditional SdA eschatology is that if (i) the Sunday Law must perforce precede the Second Coming, and (ii) the Second Coming is our great hope, then should we not welcome the Sunday Law?

That's a curious question.  On the one hand, I agree with you - hasten the Coming of the Lord!  On the other hand, if a Sunday Law (or any other event) were to cause Jesus to come back to earth today, look how many billions of people might be lost!

[JoeMo]

Lauralea says:

"To really join together we would have to giive up our fundamental beliefs. He did not ask if we would be willing to help give meals to the poor here. He was addressing our fundamental beliefs."

Not really, I have been attending non-denominational churches for years; and none of them have ever pushed me to do Sunday worship.  Many of these congregations have Saturday services to accomodate Sabbath keepers.  I've even heard charismatic preachers proclaim the 7th-day Sabbath at Sunday services!  Some non-denominationals don't believe in unconditional immortality; although most do.  For the most part, it causes no conflict; because both scenarios lead to the same result in the end - the saved have eternal life; the unsaved don't.

The big thing they have in common is a love for Christ.

 

If our actions are our best witness, the witness of us steadfastly keeping the Sabbath (as SDAs or non-denominationals) while showing grace to those who don't is a much better witness than heaping judgement and condemnation on those who don't honor a 7th-day Sabbath.

[Lauralea]

Lauralea says:

"To really join together we would have to giive up our fundamental beliefs. He did not ask if we would be willing to help give meals to the poor here. He was addressing our fundamental beliefs."

Not really, I have been attending non-denominational churches for years; and none of them have ever pushed me to do Sunday worship.  Many of these congregations have Saturday services to accomodate Sabbath keepers.  I've even heard charismatic preachers proclaim the 7th-day Sabbath at Sunday services!  Some non-denominationals don't believe in unconditional immortality; although most do.  For the most part, it causes no conflict; because both scenarios lead to the same result in the end - the saved have eternal life; the unsaved don't.

The big thing they have in common is a love for Christ.

 

If our actions are our best witness, the witness of us steadfastly keeping the Sabbath (as SDAs or non-denominationals) while showing grace to those who don't is a much better witness than heaping judgement and condemnation on those who don't honor a 7th-day Sabbath.

I am glad you have had pleasant times of fellowship with believers who were open to the Sabbath, but if you listen to the program, this specific man, whom I believe it says was president of the National Council of churches, was asking them to give up the idea the Sabbath was a fundamental belief. It is not being judgemental to refuse. Nor am I heaping condemnation, I believe many will be saved from other denominations. The students were being gracious. They were a good witness, and they refused to say the Seventh day Sabbath was unimportant when directly asked to do so by one in authority in other churches.

[JoeMo]

Lauralea says: " Nor am I heaping condemnation"

 

I didn't mean "you" were doing it; I'm sorry if I implied that.  There are those that do; and it's just as wrong for those people to pass judgement on Sunday keepers as infidels as it is for Sunday keppers to pass judgement on SDA's as legalists.