Pentecostal SDA churches

[Sojourner]

Question, 

 

If for whatever reason you visited a local SDA church for the Sabbath service and discovered that the format and events of that service were no different to what would be done at a local Assemblies of God church, would you approve or disapprove? 

For those who may not have ever encountered the Assemblies of God or a Pentecostal denomination before, that format of meeting would resemble something like this, (note that this might only be in part during the weekly meeting and varies from week to week). 

Opening Praise and worship songs - flowing, all members standing. 

Singing in the Spirit - Singing in Tongues. 

Prayer, (which may lead into further prayer in Tongues)

 

Prayer in tongues - General across Congregation, 
 

Single Tongues and interpretation by another members with potentially a prophetic focus of what G-d is saying to the congregation. 

 

Words of knowledge "there is one amongst us here that has a sore knee, come forward and be healed" and similar cases. 

Communion - every second week, bread and grape juice in thimble glasses. 

Offering

 

Sermon

 

Altar Call - invitation to be born again, personal prayer for members needs, Anointing with oil of the sick. 

Slaying in the Spirit - prayer that ends with the person becoming overwhelmed by the presence of G-d and falling over backwards. 

 

Personal Prophecy, 

 

Songs to finish and often through the altar call. 

 

Fellowship. 

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I don't know that I'd "approve" or "disapprove".... I'd probably just think it was weird, and leave...

[Kevin H]

Some of our early worship services were this way. However, so much fanaticism came with this, and people involved became more interested in excitement than studying God's word and Mrs. White came to say "I'm afraid of it, I'm afraid of it, I'm afraid of it" and that is how I'd feel.  

 

We have no ear witnesses of the Biblical gift of tongues. The texts seem to indicate it was people understanding in their own language.

 

Also, people seem to have a need for some kind of "proof" of their acceptance by God that they look for in the supernatural. This is not trusting his love out of faith.

[Gregory Matthews]

Here is how the AOG Describes their services:  http://ag.org/top/about/what_to_expect.cfm

[Sojourner]

Here is some good footage that may be of help - 

[Gregory Matthews]

In the opening post, the following question was asked:

 

 

 

If for whatever reason you visited a local SDA church for the Sabbath service and discovered that the format and events of that service were no different to what would be done at a local Assemblies of God church, would you approve or disapprove? 

For those who may not have ever encountered the Assemblies of God or a Pentecostal denomination before, that format of meeting would resemble something like this, (note that this might only be in part during the weekly meeting and varies from week to week).

 

 
My first problem with the opening post, and the direction that this thread has gone is that there is a failure to distinguish between Pentecostal and the Assemblies of God (AOG).  The AOG is but one small part of the Pentecostal movement.  Pentecostals consist of a very large number of denominations.  That which accurately describes the version that is practiced by one denomination often does not fit the practices of another part.  As Wikipedia says:

 

 

 

Comprising over 700 denominations and a large number of independent churches, there is no central authority governing Pentecostalism; however, many denominations are affiliated with the Pentecostal World Fellowship. There are over 279 million Pentecostals worldwide, and the movement is growing in many parts of the world, especially the global South. Since the 1960s, Pentecostalism has increasingly gained acceptance from other Christian traditions, and Pentecostal beliefs concerning Spirit baptism and spiritual gifts have been embraced by non-Pentecostal Christians in Protestant and Catholic churches through the Charismatic Movement. Together, Pentecostal and Charismatic Christianity numbers over 500 million adherents.

 

Carefully consider the above:  1)  Some 700 denominations.  2) Some 279,000,000 Pentecostals.  3) An estimated one-half billion Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians.

 

By the way:  Some people use the terms "pentecostal" and "charismatic" interchangeably.   

 

From this perspective, that which applies to Pentecostals may not apply to AOG.

 

I have a further problem with bringing Rodney Brown into this discussion.

 

NOTE:  HIs name is also spelled "Browne."

 

Rodney Brown has an independent ministry.  His ministry is nor formally a part of the AOG.  That distinction has not been made clear in this discussion.  People reading here, although it has not been said that he is AOG, might think that he is a part of the AOG.  Certainly he has clergy friends who are AOG.   But, his ministry began independently and his relationship to some AOG clergy came well into the development of his independent ministry.

 

Again, as Wikipedia says:

 

 

Rodney Howard-Browne is a charismatic Christian preacher and evangelist. He is pastor of The River at Tampa Bay, a church which he and his wife founded in 1996, and heads Revival Ministries International. He was born in South Africa and has resided in Tampa, Florida, USA since the mid-1990s.

Howard-Browne was raised in a Pentecostal family as a young boy in South Africa. In 1981, he met and married his wife Adonica.^[1] In 1987 the family immigrated to the United States.^[2]

 

According to Christianity Today, Browne's ministry is known for its passion for evangelism and ministries of restoration, accompanied by "signs and wonders" characterized by baptism of the Holy Spirit, physical healings and miracles, with frequent manifestations of laughing and "falling under the power" during his evangelistic services.^[3] This gave rise to the term "holy laughter", and "Holy Ghost bartender", which refer to audience members spontaneously laughing loudly during his services.^[4] In 1989, in upstate New York, revivals "broke out" in church meetings that Howard-Browne was leading or attending.^[3] He held a long term revival at the Carpenter's Home Church in Lakeland, Florida and was subsequently linked to the Toronto Blessing.^[3][5][6] The manifestations at the Toronto Revival became so contentious that the Vineyard Association of Churches severed ties with the Toronto church.

Howard-Browne serves as the pastor of a church in Tampa, Florida, which he founded in 1996.^[7] Rodney and his wife Adonica then founded Revival Ministries International in 1997 and currently are the acting Presidents of the River Bible Institute and the River School of Worship.

 

In fact, Rodney Brown has been criticized for what are called excesses in his ministry.  IOW, there are those who may be Pentecostal and believe that he goes well beyond what is appropriate for Pentecostalism.

 

 

Would we want people to look to David Koresh, and Waco, Texas, for a view of the SDA Church.

 

Yesterday, I followed one of the Internet links that was posted as being a good statement of another religious group.  I then looked to that website to see what it said about SDAs.  Well, it had plenty to say about us, which most of us would consider to be untruthful.

[JoeMo]

One of the (formerly - we resigned from the RMC) SDA churches I go to follows the general format listed by Sojourner; with the following exceptions:

 

1. Speaking/praying or singing in tongues during public worship is strongly discouraged.  It generally creeps out those who don't have a prayer laguage. People do use their prayer languages in small groups of private prayer.

2. Words of knowledge and prohecy are spontaneous rather than part of the liturgy; and are most likely to occur in the prayer after Sabbath School ot ministry time rather than during the worship service.

3. People have been "slain in the Spirit" during ministry time; but this is a rare exception rather than the rule.

 

Those who leaned towards fanaticism over these manifestations left to go to "crazier" (more "devout"?) churches.

[Gail]

The type of service described above doesn't do anything for me. I love Scripture and it touches my heart

[JoeMo]

The type of service described above doesn't do anything for me. I love Scripture and it touches my heart

I've been getting more and more involved with a more traditional SDA Church lately because they are more interested in the Word than Spirit manifestation.  I've really been into eschatology lately - something many charismatic/pentecostal churches don't like to talk about.  I think both traditional SDA's and charismatic churches could do a better job at striking a balance between the two.

[Sojourner]

The video of Rodney Howard Browne is simply to demonstrate slaying in the spirit and other pentecostal theology. I went along to his meetings which were hosted by the Assemblies of God denomination with the support of other Pentecostal groups also and it was exactly the same as in the video and can be no different to what happens on a weekly basis in AOG churches here in Australia. 

 

My own views are that I am opposed to Cessationist theology and believe that all Spiritual Gifts are for use in the SDA church today when they are needed or have a specific purpose. 

 

I feel that the gift of prophecy did not start with just Ellen White, nor does it finish with just Ellen White. I have no doubt that God still guides people into the prophetic gift today. 

Tongues - has been discussed here at length before, if done in the manner that scripture says and Joe describes above I don't disagree with that. 

Singing in tongues, not my thing personally and not something I agree with. 

 

Word of Knowlege - Essential Spiritual Gift for use in any church and should be encouraged accordingly. 

 

Personal one on one prophecy - again something I would openly encourage. 

 

Altar Calls - already openly occurring in some SDA churches, a shame that more churches do not share that with their own congregation. 

 

Slaying in the Spirit - I have given this quite some thought over the years and am not opposed to it providing that people are not doing it out of peer pressure or for the wrong reasons. Its totally reasonable to me that Altar ministry can be a very emotional time and that people do fall over in awe of the presence of G-d. So no real problems with that. 

 

Perhaps another interesting one could be described as "Quaking" or "Shaking" in the presence of G-d at the altar or even in the pews during worship. My understanding is that this first originates with George Fox and the Quaker movement which predates the Pentecostal Charismatic Renewal movement in Azusa street. Yet my experience is that this also features in AOG meetings here from time to time. - I don't really disagree with that either, if people are becoming aware of the presence of G-d as He has drawn near to them, then again I don't see anything really unusual about that either. 

Is Rodney Howard Browne some type of charlatan as the video maker alleges? - I don't know and would probably go to someone like John Ankerberg to get his opinion before I decided something like that. 

[LifeHiscost]

Here's a couple of quotes that might add some direction when considering the value of speaking in tongues.

 

 

 

Clearly a new day was dawning for the remnant church. But as it took on life it was threatened by certain perils. One of these was in the form of ecstatic experiences in connection with the conferences in Topsham and Paris, Maine, held in the autumn of 1850. James and Ellen White were present at both, and they partook of the experiences. Earlier ecstatic experiences, in the form of speaking in unknown tongues came to mind. There had been four such times in the previous thirty months. Two were of major importance, two less significant. Before presenting the restraining cautions of the vision of December 24, 1850, we should review these experiences. One led to encouragement and gave impetus to the work of God; the other misled in a doctrinal line. We present the affirmative first; the data for this comes largely from a Hiram Edson account, dated November 26, 1849, published in Present Truth.{1BIO 196.1} 

 

Some of these persons have exercises which they call gifts and say that the Lord has placed them in the church. They have an unmeaning gibberish which they call the unknown tongue, which is unknown not only by man but by the Lord and all heaven. Such gifts are manufactured by men and women, aided by the great deceiver. Fanaticism, false excitement, false talking in tongues, and noisy exercises have been considered gifts which God has placed in the church. Some have been deceived here. The fruits of all this have not been good. “Ye shall know them by their fruits.” Fanaticism and noise have been considered special evidences of faith. Some are not satisfied with a meeting unless they have a powerful and happy time. They work for this and get up an excitement of feeling. But the influence of such meetings is not beneficial. When the happy flight of feeling is gone, they sink lower than before the meeting because their happiness did not come from the right source. The most profitable meetings for spiritual advancement are those which are characterized with solemnity and deep searching of heart; each seeking to know himself, and earnestly, and in deep humility, seeking to learn of Christ.{1T 412.1}

 

God is love!  Jesus saves! 

[Gail]

That video creeps me out. I would not be comfortable at that service. To me, it seems like some dignity is going out the window

[Lauralea]

It says many spirits have gone out and test the spirits whether they be of God. Also the gift of tongues was understandable by those speaking other languages and they were supposed to take turns and if noone could interpret to be quiet. It was primarily other human languages. So if someone started speaking Russian or Italian that didnt know it that would be one thing. But this is not what we see. At best it is a confusing emotional exercise . At worst something to be afraid of.as EG White and others have said. Because if they are being moved by a power outside themselves to do what the Bible says not to do, what are they being moved by?

[LifeHiscost]

 

Yesterday, I followed one of the Internet links that was posted as being a good statement of another religious group.  I then looked to that website to see what it said about SDAs.  Well, it had plenty to say about us, which most of us would consider to be untruthful.

Not sure if that was one that I posted being only fully acquainted with the title since I have no computer sound. There was no intent for advocating acceptance/non of the message given. My bad. Sorry about that.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[RonP]

That video!  I saw exactly the same thing many years ago when I went to see a hypnotist entertaining the local folk.  He was able to push people over as he selected his guinea pigs. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Life:  Nothing personal in my comment.

 

GM

[Miss Jessie]

ooo! I like role play. Let me try. Hm...

 

So, let's say I walked into this Seventh-day Adventist church and slid into a nice seat in the back, as I prefer to do...

 

Opening Praise and worship songs - flowing, all members standing. 

 

Singing in the Spirit - Singing in Tongues. 

 

It's likely that I missed this part, to be completely honest. I normally don't make it to the early song service. However, sometimes I do. It's possible that I already heard the music from outside the sanctuary. Depending on what type of music it was, I may not even go in (if it's too loud, for example) until the song service is over. However, if the music is beautiful, such as hymns, I may enter. It's possible that even if they are singing in another tongue that I might go in, because I like to listen to music in other languages, too, and might simply think they are singing in a language that I do not understand. Unless, of course, that fact is announced to warn/educate visitors. In the latter case, I might slip out at any point between then and maybe the second or third song. I would try to do so as politely as possible.

Prayer, (which may lead into further prayer in Tongues)

 

Assuming that I did not slip out during the song service, and they were not already praying in tongues and did not warn us that they were going to pray in tongues (in which case, I honestly believe I would quietly walk out), I would likely kneel or stand reverently, or lean forward, depending on how the others are positioned while praying, and/or any impressions that I feel as to how I should pray. I would try to follow along. However, as soon as they started praying in tongues, (assuming that this comes as a surprise to me) I would start praying for them and to the Lord, asking for His help in such a situation. 

 

Prayer in tongues - General across Congregation.

 

At this point, I excuse myself.
 

Single Tongues and interpretation by another members with potentially a prophetic focus of what G-d is saying to the congregation. 

I'm gone at this point.

 

Words of knowledge "there is one amongst us here that has a sore knee, come forward and be healed" and similar cases. 
 

It's possible that I actually left the church at this point. However, assuming that I didn't (perhaps I did not have a ride and it was too far to walk, or I had been invited there by a friend), I would likely sit and watch curiously, praying that if it is from God, God heals, and if it is not from God, that God does not allow anyone to be deceived, and leave the rest up to God. This doesn't mean that my mind will change either way, because I believe in testing all things, but I would be respectful if they are behaving reverently. However, if they are healing in a way that has people writing on the floor, disappearing and reappearing places, screaming, etc, I would probably spend the rest of the church service sitting outside and waiting to leave. 

Communion - every second week, bread and grape juice in thimble glasses. 

 

Assuming that this is the second week and that I'm not spending the rest of the church service outside  I think I would decline the communion. I don't have a problem with communion itself, and the average SDA church (at least in the US) has communion of unleavened bread and grape juice in a thimble glass (I think), but footwashing isn't mentioned here. I also believe in heart preparation and likely did not know they were having communion in sufficient time to prepare. I also, honestly, at that point would not want to seem to encourage what seems to me to be confusion. 

 

Offering

 

I likely wouldn't have anything to put into the offering plate. But, if I did, it would depend on what it was going to. This is an SDA church, after all, and I can fill out a tithe and offering envelope and designate where I would like the offering to go to.

 

Sermon

 

I might linger by the door and listen to the sermon. However, I would be following along closely with my Bible, accepting that which seems true and arguing in my mind against anything that doesn't make sense, all the while praying for God's guidance for me, the speaker, and on all the hearts of the people. 

 

Altar Call - invitation to be born again, personal prayer for members needs, Anointing with oil of the sick. 

 

Under normal circumstances, I would respond. But, with the speaking of tongues attached, I would be uncomfortable coming forward, for fear that they might try to cast out some demon. Besides, I'm already born again. 

 

Slaying in the Spirit - prayer that ends with the person becoming overwhelmed by the presence of G-d and falling over backwards. 

 

If I've lasted this long, I'd likely be praying for God's Real Spirit to be coming over that person and casting out the real demons that seem to me to be present. And would be holding back a sermon of my own. I'd probably walk out backwards.

 

Personal Prophecy, 

 

Nope, I'm gone at this point.

 

Songs to finish and often through the altar call. 

 

Sitting outside the church, praying for everyone.

 

Fellowship. 

 

I might come back in at this point for the food and to talk to someone. I'll possibly be so overwhelmed that I'll be giving the individual across from me a Bible study on the real gift of speaking in tongues and what it really is, and also on the gifts of the spirit and how devils can work miracles too. It's possible that I wasn't prepared for this ahead of time, and don't have the references right there, but I'll probably promise to share them later and take down their e-mail, because it's likely I won't be going back to that particular church for a good long while. It's possible that the reason why I share all this is because the person across from me asked why I stepped out of the church and didn't come back in, and continued to press me (though I'd likely be afraid to say why at first) until I just couldn't hold it in any longer.

 

See: 

Acts 2:6

Matthew 24: 11, 24

Matthew 7:22

Revelation 16:14

Galations 5: 22-23

[LynnDel]

On that video, near the end after he introduces the "laughologist" and eventually pushes him over -- his body language and expression when he does it are so telling (to me).

[JoeMo]

Different people have different opinions about worship style.  I tend to emote quite freely; and like to close my eyes, raise my hands and sway (or even dance a little) during praise music.  In most charismatic churches I have attended,  the stranger manifestations of the Spirit, (e.g., prayer languages, mass "slayings" in the Spirit, the "jerks", and uncontrollably laughing) are the exception rather than the rule.

 

When I am at the height of expressing love to my wife, I am not stoic and controlled; I am quite enthusiastic and passionate; as is she. I wouldn't be surprised if I uttered some undecipherable stuff during this moments.  I wouldn't be surprised if I collapsed in a temporary stupor afterwards.  If I am at the height of expressing my love and adoration of my God, should it be any different?  After all, He will one day be my "husband" (although picturing myself in a wedding gown is quite uncomfortable).

 

If people are uncomfortable with this type of worship, they can go to another, more traditional church.  I'm comfortable in either setting.  I will admit, I learn more at a traditional service than at a charismatic service.  But I have more fun and come away more spiritually satisfied at a charismatic service.  IMO, they both have their place in the body of Christ.

[Lauralea]

I knew a Seventh day Adventist evangelist who I believe was filled with the Holy Spirit. He was fairly well known and is now deceased. He once was stranded in an African country when the meetings he was supposed to preach were canceled by the government and he could not catch a flight for a day or two. He witnessed to a prostitute (with some caution) who knew only Swahili I think it was, which he did not know. He spoke in English, which she did not know, but when he was preaching, she understood him. She wept and was converted.

 

…7They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8"And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? 9"Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia

Acts 2:7-8