bonnie Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 I appreciate the balanced approach that assumes the intelligence of our people to exercise discernment. Some critics of anything untraditional, progressive, innovative, or any other new method or perspective tend to take an allow nothing approach that reject the whole if one flaw or error can be found. They end up throwing the baby out with the bath water. The end result is fearful confusion for our people and plays into the hands of the fear mongering label meisters. "Help" by disabling thinking... Some critics of anything untraditional, progressive, innovative, or any other new method or perspective tend to take an allow nothing approach that reject the whole if one flaw or error can be found. They end up throwing the baby out with the bath water. The end result is fearful confusion for our people "Some critics" do not indicate the numerous church leaders/pastors and educators that are firmly against this. It is apparent that those opposed are trying to spread fearful confusion among our people From Ted Wilson on down are they part of the "subgroup" of SDA's trying to scare people? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Were the high priests and the Sanhedrin (i.e., church leadership) part of the "subgroup" of Jews trying to scare people about Jesus? Not saying anything negative about church leadership here; but a denomination is a corporation as well as a group of people with common beliefs. As such, they must be concerned about fiscal stability and control of the corporation. Just as an some electric utilities fear the disruption of "business as usual" from rooftop solar panels, some in the church fear the disruption of "business as usual" from people who appear to be jumping out of the traditional denominational box. Those who don't want to experience the "emergent" church don't have to. If you are satisfied with your current spiritual experience, stay where you are. But if you are looking for a deeper spiriual experience and more intimacy with God, try a more progressive and open-minded congregation. If you don't like what you experience, go back to your home church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 Were the high priests and the Sanhedrin (i.e., church leadership) part of the "subgroup" of Jews trying to scare people about Jesus? Not saying anything negative about church leadership here; but a denomination is a corporation as well as a group of people with common beliefs. As such, they must be concerned about fiscal stability and control of the corporation. Just as an some electric utilities fear the disruption of "business as usual" from rooftop solar panels, some in the church fear the disruption of "business as usual" from people who appear to be jumping out of the traditional denominational box. Those who don't want to experience the "emergent" church don't have to. If you are satisfied with your current spiritual experience, stay where you are. But if you are looking for a deeper spiriual experience and more intimacy with God, try a more progressive and open-minded congregation. If you don't like what you experience, go back to your home church. Unless you are comparing the church leadership to .......Were the high priests and the Sanhedrin (i.e., church leadership) part of the "subgroup" of Jews trying to scare people about Jesus what is the point of this statement Not saying anything negative about church leadership here; You might not see anything negative in that statement but it is really tough to see anything positive Not saying anything negative about church leadership here; Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Unless you are comparing the church leadership to .......Were the high priests and the Sanhedrin (i.e., church leadership) part of the "subgroup" of Jews trying to scare people about Jesus what is the point of this statement Not saying anything negative about church leadership here; You might not see anything negative in that statement but it is really tough to see anything positive Point of statement - you asked the same question about SDA leadership trying to scare people away from the "emergent" church. From your post #26 - "From Ted Wilson on down are they part of the "subgroup" of SDA's trying to scare people?" Answering your question with a question, I guess. They seem to be parallel scenarios. I wasn't trying to say anything negative or positive; just stating a fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 Point of statement - you asked the same question about SDA leadership trying to scare people away from the "emergent" church. From your post #26 - "From Ted Wilson on down are they part of the "subgroup" of SDA's trying to scare people?" Answering your question with a question, I guess. They seem to be parallel scenarios. I wasn't trying to say anything negative or positive; just stating a fact. No it seems more like dodging an answer. From the second post on this topic those that have problems with the emerging church movement were made out to be part of a sub group trying to scare us into joining their movement That was said in response to Pastor Steve Wohlberg remarks. He is hardly alone. So is he part of this sub group trying to scare adventists? A simple yes or no will do.If the answer is no he is not,along with the other prominent names in adventism,how do some become part of some subgroup that is trying to use fear and others saying identically the same thing are not? Do you believe it is a fact that from Ted Wilson and the many others their objection to the movement is as you stated. denomination is a corporation as well as a group of people with common beliefs. As such, they must be concerned about fiscal stability and control of the corporation. Just as an some electric utilities fear the disruption of "business as usual" from rooftop solar panels, some in the church fear the disruption of "business as usual" from people who appear to be jumping out of the traditional denominational box. If they were not afraid of losing fiscal stability and control of the "corporation" would they enthusiastically be endorsing this as you and others here? As you said you were simply stating a fact. Are there those that are as well versed in scripture as the promoters of the movement? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 "Are there those that are as well versed in scripture as the promoters of the movement?" Yes; they just interpret things differently. Just because one group does not agree with the other group on certain subjects does not necessarily make either group inferior to or "less worthy" than the other group. As far as this topic goes, I'm done (for now). I don't agree with your position (probably never will); and you don't agree with mine. And so it goes ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted March 11, 2015 Moderators Share Posted March 11, 2015 I'm sorry that people are misunderstanding my post. The other day I wrote a clarification, however as I was getting ready to send it my cousin's cat jumped on the computer and I lost it. I have not had the chance to re-write it. Basically I've seen different points come in every few years and at Andrews I read things from back over 100 years where it is the same old thing. Some are good criticisms but often twisted where they are offering you the pure truth while the rest of the church is deceived by this flavor of the month and unless you come to them for safety you will be deceived too. I've even seen James, Ellen and Willie White as apparently the ones fully enwrapped in these dangers and how to come to them because they have the sister Whites messages that come from God while the newer sister White messages are from Willie or someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 We have had a numer of presidents of the General Conference who have disagreed on certain points of doctrine. Many years ago I was asked to interpret for the president when he visited Norway. His name was Neil Wilson and he strongly disapproved of certain doctrines his son, Ted, endorses today. Some may approve of the views of Neil, others of Ted. Are any of them more or less Seventh-day Adventist? Kevin H 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted March 18, 2015 Moderators Share Posted March 18, 2015 Our opening post attempted to list four things that are found in the Emerging Church movement. I will suggest that the following are seven things that are found in the Emerging Church movement: 1) Men, or males, if you prefer to say it that way. 2) Women, or females if you want to say it that way. 3) People who are searching for answers. 4) People who have made a commitment to Christ. 5) People who understand that they have not achieved perfection in their doctrinal understanding. 6) People who know that they have not achieved perfection in the application of doctrine to the life that they live. 7) People who are willing to trust God. NOTE: Finding that people in the Emerging Church movement who have common characteristics does not mean that such are negative. Kevin H and CoAspen 2 Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted March 19, 2015 Moderators Share Posted March 19, 2015 I have no issue of people being critical of different trends that come from time to time. What I have issue with is too often they are presented as scare tactics to join another subgroup, where frequently it's presented as "There are two and only two groups, either you are with us and are right or else you are with them and in the wrong." "You either oppose women's ordination or else you are a modernist higher critic who sees the Bible as uninspired and question if there is even a God." "You either believe that Jesus had the sinful nature, otherwise you believe that he had the nature of Adam before the fall, there are no other options." "Either you follow strictly the Ellen White quotes that I've quoted from her earlier writings which came from God, or you are quoting her newer writings which are not from God but from Willie or W. W. Prescott or some other new theology person who is trying to place new theology in her writings." "Either you are with us or you are being hypnotized." "Red is an important color to Catholics. Oh did you know that Loma Linda is celebrating Red Ribbon week?" Seems like one topic after another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I have no issue of people being critical of different trends that come from time to time. What I have issue with is too often they are presented as scare tactics to join another subgroup, where frequently it's presented as "There are two and only two groups, either you are with us and are right or else you are with them and in the wrong." "You either oppose women's ordination or else you are a modernist higher critic who sees the Bible as uninspired and question if there is even a God." "You either believe that Jesus had the sinful nature, otherwise you believe that he had the nature of Adam before the fall, there are no other options." "Either you follow strictly the Ellen White quotes that I've quoted from her earlier writings which came from God, or you are quoting her newer writings which are not from God but from Willie or W. W. Prescott or some other new theology person who is trying to place new theology in her writings." "Either you are with us or you are being hypnotized." "Red is an important color to Catholics. Oh did you know that Loma Linda is celebrating Red Ribbon week?" Seems like one topic after another. Satan is on one side and Jesus is on the other. Which one of those two sides, both sides found in the Word of God, do you want to follow? …4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.…Ephesian 4 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted March 19, 2015 Moderators Share Posted March 19, 2015 The point is I am not a part of an "Emerging church movement." I am not a "Fordite" I don't believe that Mrs. White's later writings were inspired by Willie or Prescott rather than God. I believe that Jesus had his own unique nature unlike Adam before the fall and us after the fall, and that he did not have in himself the disposition that we have to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. But because I don't belong to certain subgroups I have even been told by some that I do not exist. That either we are one or another. Yes we have Satan and Christ. However Satan is not very original. what he can do is distort what God gives us, takes fractions of truth and make us believe these fractions of truth are the whole truth. And he hands out these pieces of truth as whole truth as it appeals to different ones of us. Then we use these portions of truth as the whole truth and build speculations and traditions of these portions of truth and they turn into error. On the other hand with Christ and the Holy Spirit we know that we all see through a glass dimly. We know in part and prophecy in part. We don't see our understanding as the final word. we are looking to Christ. Looking to know the Bible better. We are willing to grow. While we may have worries about others we don't have to put down other seekers. We don't have to pick something that could well be a problem and tell other people "You can either follow my understanding or else you belong to those horrible people there and are lost." When Paul was in Corinth he was teaching in synagogue. Once some people came in and opposed him. He left with some very sharp words for everyone in that synagogue and started to teach someplace else. Well after calling them names, a number from that synagogue, including the Rabbi came over and continued to study with Paul. This clearly had an effect on him. Later in Ephesus he was teaching in the synagogue. After a while, like in Corinth, people came in and opposed him. His response was completely different. He now had an attitude that he did not want to cause problems and that if there were people who were not comfortable with him teaching in the synagogue he would teach elsewhere and those who wanted to study with him were welcome to attend. We also find in Ephesus that when there was the riot against Paul and people were saying "Great is Artamus of the Ephesians" that the official was able to point out that Paul never once blasphemed against her. By Ephesus Paul's method was just to share what he understood to be truth and if people joined him wonderful. If not then let every man be convinced in their own heart. Paul did not have to pick some sub group and apply it to EVERYONE else who did not belong to his subgroup and use fear and condemnation as an evangelism tool. Johann 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 >>>>>.......pick some sub group and apply it to EVERYONE else who did not belong to his subgroup and use fear and condemnation as an evangelism tool.<<<<< Most important! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 …4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.… 13Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. 16Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. 17Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king. 18Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable. 19For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly. 20For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.....1 Peter 2 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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