Ecumenism,At What Cost

[bonnie]

Volume 15, Issue 4

•  

Efforts in recent years to unify the entire Christian faith have grave consequences for belief.

Gerhard Pfandl

        In May 1997, Cardinal Basil Hume, spiritual leader of Roman Catholics in Great Britain, spoke at Canterbury Cathedral. In the presence of the Archbishop of Canterbury, he stated publicly that the primacy of the Pope was a necessary ingredient of any move toward Christian unity involving Rome. 

        Christian unity has become the focus of most Christian churches today. And why not? After all, did not Jesus say, “‘I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one’” (John 17:20-22, NKJV).1  

        Just over 200 years ago, in 1792, an English Baptist village pastor and village cobbler by the name of William Carey was instrumental in founding the Baptist Missionary Society. A year later, in 1793, Carey and his family became the society’s first missionaries. They went to India. In the years following, missionary and Bible societies sprang up all over Europe and America. Men like Robert Morrison, Adoniram Judson, John Williams, Robert Moffatt, and Hudson Taylor were sent out to the four corners of the globe to preach the gospel.

        And what a job they did! Christianity increased from 23 percent of the world population in the year 1800 to 34 percent in the year 1900.2  The century of mission, as the 19th century in church history is now called, increased the percentage of Christians in the world by more than one-third. Today, Christians are still only about one-third of the world population. In other words, Christianity made no progress in the evangelization of the world in the 20th century. 

        Although the Christian Church as a whole had tremendous success in evangelizing the world during the 19th century, tensions developed among churches and missionaries over the new converts. Sheep stealing became a common accusation that they hurled at one another. The heathen, therefore, began to ask: “How do you serve the same God, yet remain so divided?” The missionaries did not have good answers.

The Ecumenical Movement 

        This question was taken up in 1910 at the World Missionary Conference in Edinburgh, Scotland. One of the topics discussed was “How to Evangelize Without Fighting.” At the end of the discussion a resolution was passed, the goal of which was “to plant in each non-Christian nation one undivided Church of Christ.”3  But to do that, they needed some kind of unity. 

        At Edinburgh the idea of the ecumenical movement was conceived, but because of World Wars I and II, it took almost another 40 years to bring the ecumenical baby into the world. In 1948, 351 delegates from 147 Protestant churches gathered in Amsterdam, Holland, to organize the World Council of Churches. Since then, the ecumenical movement has made progress. Today, 349 churches with more than 560 million members belong to the World Council of Churches, whose administrative center is in Geneva, Switzerland. 

        Unity! Yes, but at what cost? There is no more sheep stealing, but there is also hardly any evangelization.

The Roman Catholic Church 

        During the first 12 years after 1948, only Protestant churches belonged to the World Council of Churches. Then in 1961 all the Orthodox churches joined.

        The largest Christian church, however, the Roman Catholic Church, with about 1 billion members, is still not a member of the World Council of Churches. Until the 1960s, one could not really be a good Catholic and be ecumenical. In 1964, however, the Roman Catholic Church officially stepped into the ecumenical age. In that year, the second Vatican Council adopted the decree on ecumenism, which says that “all who have been justified by faith in baptism are incorporated into Christ; they, therefore, have a right to be called Christians and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.”4  The decree refers to non-Catholic Christians as “separated brethren.”5 

        The Catholic ecumenical position is very simple: The separated brethren ought to accept the supremacy of the Pope, and either become members of the Roman Catholic Church or join hands and continue their existence as separate entities within the framework of a fraternal religious system. Some Protestant leaders are in fact seriously considering doing just this. In 1989, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Robert Runcie, leader of about 70 million Anglicans, after his audience with the Pope, said: “For the universal church I renew the plea. Could not all Christians come to reconsider the kind of primacy the bishop of Rome exercised within the early church, a ‘presiding of love’ for the sake of the unity of the churches in the diversity of their mission.”6 

        Popes Paul VI in 1969 and John Paul II in 1984 visited the headquarters of the World Council of Churches in Geneva, but the Roman Catholic Church still is not, and probably never will be, a member of the World Council of Churches. Nevertheless, there exists close cooperation between the World Council of Churches and the Roman Catholic Church in many ways. In a number of countries around the world, for example, the Roman Catholic Church is a member of the National Council of Churches.

        Every Sunday, ecumenical worship services are held around the globe, and in 1991, for the first time in history, the Pope held an ecumenical service with two Lutheran bishops at St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome. After the service, the Swedish Lutheran bishop, Bertil Werkström, said: “The moment has come where we must say that the denunciations at the time of the reformation are no longer valid.”7  

        In 1994, Paul Crouch, the founder of Trinity Broadcasting Network, told two Roman Catholic priests and a leading Catholic laywoman who were his guests: “In the essentials our theology is basically the same: some of these even so-called doctrinal differences . . . are really matters of semantics. . . . So I say to the critics and theological nitpickers, ‘Be gone, in Jesus name! Let’s come together in the spirit of love and unity.’”8 

        Unity? Yes, but at what cost? Truth is sacrificed on the altar of unity.

A Prophecy 

        In 1885, Ellen G. White wrote: “When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near.”9 

        In 1885, when she wrote this, the ecumenical movement, as we know it today, was not even thought of. At that time, not only were Protestants quarreling amongst themselves, but most were passionately opposed to the Roman Catholic Church, as some still are today in Northern Ireland. Over the past 40 years, the first part of this prophecy is being fulfilled. The second part will surely be fulfilled in the future.

Revelation 13 

        Revelation 13 presents two symbolic beasts supporting each other. Seventh-day Adventists have always taught that the first beast is a symbol of papal Rome, and the second a symbol of Protestant America. It must be made clear that when we speak of papal Rome, we are not referring to individual believers in the Roman Catholic Church but to a religio-political empire, an institution teaching doctrines based on the traditions of men rather than on the Word of God and with the political power to impose those doctrines. God has His people in all Christian churches, including the Roman Catholic Church. 

        Revelation 13:12 says, “He [the second beast] exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.” According to this text it may be expected that sometime in the future, the United States will tell the world to worship, i.e., to obey, the papacy. 

        In 1888, Ellen G. White wrote: “Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul, and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of Spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of Spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience.”10 

        “Protestants of the United States,” she says, “will be foremost in reaching over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power.” Are there any indications that this could ever happen?

        On March 29, 1994, 39 leading evangelical Protestants and Roman Catholics—men like Pat Robertson and John Cardinal O’Connor—signed a document entitled “Evangelicals and Catholics Together: The Christian Mission in the Third Millennium.” Headlines emblazoned upon newspapers across America proclaimed: “Christians Herald New Era” and “Catholics Embrace Evangelicals—Conservatives of Both Faiths Agree to Accept Each Other as Christians.” On Reformation Day, October 31, 1999, Lutherans and Roman Catholics signed a common declaration on justification by faith, the very issue that started the Reformation in the 16th century. According to this document, Lutherans and Roman Catholics “are now able to articulate a common understanding of justification by God’s grace through faith in Christ.”11 The remaining differences, it is asserted, no longer justify doctrinal condemnations.

        Unity? Yes, but at what cost? The process of the ecumenical rapprochement is virtually wiping out the Protestant Reformation. 

        In 1995, the authors of Evangelicals and Catholics Together: Toward a Common Mission, reported that “European Catholics and Protestants have concluded that the condemnations of the Reformation were based on misconceptions, were aimed at extreme positions on the other side and no longer apply to today’s situations.”12  What would Martin Luther and the thousands who gave their lives for the principles of the Reformation say to that? 

        For years, the Christian Coalition has been operating in the United States. Ralph Reed, former General Secretary of this organization, claims: “The future of American politics lies in the growing strength of Evangelicals and their Roman Catholic allies. If these two core constituencies—Evangelicals comprising the swing vote to the south, Catholics holding sway in the north—can cooperate on issues and support like-minded candidates, they can determine the outcome of almost any election in the nation.”13  

        What does prophecy say? 

        “He deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed” (Rev. 13:14, 15).

        The Christian Coalition, or an organization similar to it, could well become the instrument for the development of the image to the beast, which is the union of church and state to enforce religious laws.

        The cost of this unity is threefold: (1) There is hardly any mission to the non-Christian world because it is no longer politically correct to convert unbelievers, since all religions lead to God anyway. Christ as the exclusive way of salvation has been abandoned. (2) Truth has been sacrificed on the altar of unity. (3) The Reformation is virtually being wiped out. Nevertheless, through all these events prophecy is being fulfilled.

That They May Be One 

        But did not Christ say Christians should all be one? Jesus’ prayer in John 17:21, “‘that they all may be one’” is often cited as the biblical basis for the ecumenical movement. But what did Jesus really pray for in John 17?

        In verses 11 and 12 He says: “‘Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.’”

        The prayer of Jesus in John 17 was not an appeal to the disciples to produce unity. The unity He referred to was already there. Jesus was not dealing with something at which the church should aim. He was not even speaking to His disciples or to us. He was praying to His Father that God might keep His followers in that unity which He, through His Word, had already brought into existence.

        The essence of this unity was that between Father and Son (vs. 21). This unity is a spiritual unity, not some organizational unity. And this spiritual unity has always existed among true believers. It is not a superficial unity that negates God’s Word for the sake of political or social goals, as worthy as some of them may be. 

        Those who are living at this time in human history are privileged to see the fulfillment of prophecy taking place. They are privileged to have a part in that spiritual unity, which all true believers, whatever their church affiliation, share. It is a unity based on the Word of God, not on political or social manifestos. It is a unity that safeguards God’s teachings, rather than changes and accommodates them.

        True Christian unity comes from above. It is a God-created spiritual unity, not an outward organizational unity created by sinful human beings. As individuals, we may become part of this spiritual unity through conversion, revival, and reformation in our lives. This should be our goal.

________________________________

Gerhard Pfandl, Ph.D., is Associate Director of the Biblical Research Institute, Silver Spring, Maryland, U.S.A.

[Gerr]

According to someone I heard today, there are highly placed people in our church today who believe and teach  that our historic church's teaching that Rome is the antichrist and the beast in Rev 13 was merely a childhood disease of our church.  So it would not be surprising if some of our leaders are for ecumenism.

[whbae]

Pope Francis believes in Unity in diversity, not one church in unity.  This kind of motto will attract a lot of people!

[Robert]

"The Catholic ecumenical position is very simple: The separated brethren ought to accept the supremacy of the Pope, and either become members of the Roman Catholic Church or join hands and continue their existence as separate entities within the framework of a fraternal religious system."

 

 

Papal supremacy is the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church that the pope, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ and as pastor of the entire Christian Church, has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered: that, in brief, "the Pope enjoys, by divine institution, supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls."[Wikipedia]

 

Vicar of Christ (from Latin Vicarius Christi) is the term used in different ways, with different theological connotations throughout history. As the original notion a vicar is of "earthly representative of God or Christ" but also used in sense of "person acting as parish priest in place of a real parson" [Wikipedia]

[Robert]

Papal supremacy is the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church that the pope, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ and as pastor of the entire Christian Church, has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered: that, in brief, "the Pope enjoys, by divine institution, supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls."[Wikipedia]

 

Vicar of Christ (from Latin Vicarius Christi) is the term used in different ways, with different theological connotations throughout history. As the original notion a vicar is of "earthly representative of God or Christ" but also used in sense of "person acting as parish priest in place of a real parson" [Wikipedia]

 

John 14:6 “I (Jesus) am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

[Robert]

Papal supremacy is the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church that the pope, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ and as pastor of the entire Christian Church, has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered: that, in brief, "the Pope enjoys, by divine institution, supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls."[Wikipedia]

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3s0rn7InSQ

[Robert]

This is better:

 

[Textus Receptus]

Pope Francis believes in Unity in diversity, not one church in unity.  This kind of motto will attract a lot of people!

 

This is a true statement.

 

Where most evangelicals and Charismatics fall short in their end-times understanding is that the some future antichrist will outlaw Christianity but not a single word of other religions e.g. Buddhism, Shintoism, New Age, etc! You see this in their movie productions, books and the like. It will only be a very small segment that don't tote the line, the line of ecumenicalism and tolerance and those who don't see the value of keeping a day (Sunday) as a civil need. I will even go far as saying that Sunday keeping churches who do not accept the practice of speaking in tongues  will also be persecuted, not by civil authorities, but by Christianity.

 

The pope will not care what religion you are, since when you reduce the lot of them, especially Christianity, are all spiritualist, have incorporated pagan festivals, New Age theories,  and lastly, they do not see the sacredness of the 7 day Sabbath. They are all diverse, but all the same! They all share  and have the same spirit leading.

 

Interestingly, when driving home last week, I turned into Father Mich Pacwa S.J radio show on Catholic Radio. He had a caller call in about and wanted to know about speaking in tongues. The caller noted that some in her parish are now speaking in tongues and was wondering how God decides who receives this spiritual gift. My first assumption was that Pacwa was going to correct her by stating that the Catholic church does not condone speaking in tongue but instead, their once catholic position,  but that the Catholic church is now becoming the largest Christian body to do so- he called it angelic speaking.  I was floored. Of course this is the plan.

 

When you have the entire Christian world claiming this supposed gift, even Catholics, their is confirmation in numbers. After all they all can't be wrong. This will be the glue that unifies them all. Yes, even Buddhist, New Agers, Taoist, Hindus speak in tongues. It's happening folks.

[JoeMo]

Catholics have been speaking in toungues for decades.  The first experience I ever had around people speaking in tongues was back in 1970 when I was a Catholic and part of the Antioch charismatic movement.  In my current congregation, (as a non-denominational; not an SDA), they call it a "prayer language".  While this is a spiritual gift, It does not mean you have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit; and lack of the gift does not mean that you have NOT received the Holy Spirit.  It is a gift - an undeserved favor.

 

As I learn more, I notice that personal use of my prayer language is decreasing more and more...

[Kevin H]

Dr. Pfandl wrote a very powerful, timely and outstanding piece!!! This is concerns on my mind, however there are a few modifications that I would make from my perspective.

First he said that Seventh-day Adventists always said that the first beast in Revelation 13 represented the Papacy. In an above post Gerry Cabalo said "According to someone I heard today, there are highly placed people in our church today who believe and teach  that our historic church's teaching that Rome is the antichrist and the beast in Rev 13 was merely a childhood disease of our church..."  Now I am not aware of any highly placed people in our church who believe this. But I have heard other who are not on a high level but on the level were we are who is suggesting this.

There is a third possibility that I believe is correct. One of the places you can study into this is in George McCredy Price's "The Time of the End" (One book that I wish we would reprint and which I wish we all would read from time to time.) The beast of Revelation 13 is a composite of ALL the beasts in Daniel 7. It represents ANY ORGINAZATION THAT REPLACES CHRIST IN OUR LIFE!!! It represents us submitting to some kind of power over us. The 7 heads are the 7 periods of history. Revelation talks about 7 mountains. We tend to jump on this and say "Rome is the city of the 7 hills and this is what it is talking about!" And in a sense that is true, but you only see the analogy as you see the bigger picture. The 7 mountains are the 7 sacred mountains of different world empires. To the Jews the sacred mountain was Mt. Zion. Babylon does not have mountains so they built their sacred mountain, the tower of Babel.  The 7 heads are 1) Babylon, 2) Medio-Persia, 2) Greece, 4) Rome, 5) the Holy Roman Empire. (the feet of iron and clay. Normally clay represents being formed by God. Here it is being formed by politics, a church state)  The Papacy played a major role in this period. This was the period that the Reformers were living in so where their focus went.  6.) The deadly wound (the toes of iron and clay in Daniel 2) a time of independent nations. The crowns are on the horns, not the head. the beast is and was not and is yet to come. No great world empire ruling over God's people. but there is head number 7) the deadly wound being healed. this kingdom is different from the previous who took over by war and conquest. This one is a union through the merchants of the earth (or the corporations and banks) uniting the world on economic cooperation.

We are seeing in Dr. Pfandl's post how this cooperation is coming among religion. If we listen to Dwight David Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Dennis Kucinich, Ralph Nader, Ron and Rand Paul, and Pat Buchannan (how I wish I could add Ben Carson and Ted Cruz to this list), or read the book the rich and the superrich, you can see how it is being done in the world of politics and economics.

The danger with Dr. Pfandl's post and most Adventists is that we are expecting to go back to the 5th head. We are looking for the wound to heal by going back to head 5. We make the WHOLE beast head 5. We study the Bible looking for head 5 in every nook and cranny. Satan likes it that we place all our focus on head 5. We are still in head 6 but we are rapidly heading to head 7. As we see head 7 developing, the Papacy is their moral voice. We have built all sorts of traditions on  Sunday Laws, but we miss the bigger picture of liberty of conscience. Sunday is how the test will be brought to the CHRISTIAN world. But the Sunday issue is only one of the major methods of testing for the mark of the beast. It is NOT the mark itself. Too many Adventists are going to be looking at events and say "See didn't we say that this was going to happen, just wait and see and soon the Pope will be the ruler of the world and soon Sunday Laws will be enforced" meanwhile other laws limiting liberty of conscience will be enacted and are being enacted but they sound good to us and they are not sunday laws so we join with them. While waiting and anticipating the 5th head and all our traditions about the exact details as to how Sunday will play into the picture, through our back door we will be welcoming the 7th head and the mark of the beast. When Jesus comes and we are lost we ask "But while the Pope was the moral voice, he was not on top like you constantly told us and we constantly looked for and constantly told everyone else. And yes there was that thing about Sunday but it didn't peter out the way we expected so we figured that this was just a minor event and that the real Sunday thing would be coming further in the future as the Pope moves into center stage."

 

 

[Kevin H]

The above post was getting long and this is a new point built on the above so I thought this would make a good chapter break. From the above I'd like to discuss Dr. Pfandl's quote:

The cost of this unity is threefold: (1) There is hardly any mission to the non-Christian world because it is no longer politically correct to convert unbelievers, since all religions lead to God anyway. Christ as the exclusive way of salvation has been abandoned. (2) Truth has been sacrificed on the altar of unity. (3) The Reformation is virtually being wiped out. Nevertheless, through all these events prophecy is being fulfilled.

I am in full agreement with this paragraph, however there are different ways of understanding point 1 and I would like to share how I understand point one. the phrase "All religions point to God anyway." The way I understand it is that God and Satan are very active in all religions. The Holy Spirit is working on every heart. People in all faiths (including atheism) fall into one of four categories:  A)Those who have consciously or unconsciously reached out to God and who have developed a deep relationship with the Holy Spirit that they are firmly committed to God. B.) Those who have opened themselves up consciously or unconsciously to God but who are not yet firmly committed. C.) Those who are searching but who have not in one way or another reached out towards God. and D.) those who are firmly opposed to God.

Christ is the exclusive way of salvation. However, over the centuries we have read into those words "Christianity, especially MY Church is the exclusive way of salvation." And we turn salvation into a work of giving a history lesson about the cross.

In other posts I have talked about how I understand the Bible and Mrs. White to teach about hell fire. It is the love and glory of God. God treats us all the same. Jesus represents God as personable and our friend. It is as we have this friendship that the eternal fire of glory becomes heaven to us instead of hell. It is through what Christ did for us on the cross that we are able to have that friendship to enjoy heaven. Thus Christ is everything! Whether we know all the details or not.

The Holy Spirit is the great missionary. He works with people where they are. And there are different levels of communication. Some people are in love with someone but only have their memory. Others are fortunate enough to have their photo. Others get to have letters either from them or from people who spent time with them and get to enjoy their loved one by learning more about them through these letters. Then there is the joy of phone calls and e-mails and instant messaging/video conversations, but none of these compare to the joy of being with the person.

Our job as missionaries is to reach out to three of the four groups above. We need to see where they are, what their need is, what things such as traditions and superstitions that get between them and Jesus and to facilitate a deeper friendship with Jesus, whether they call themselves "Christians" or not. Those in Group "A" even thought they are totally in love with what ever is out there, they can still learn more about their friend and may have traditions and superstitions that they might want to learn that they don't need. Those in group "B" can fall deeper in love as they have questions answered. And those in group "C" could reach out to God as we minister to their needs. And we must be careful to help lead them and to love them. Let them know that we care about them and not trying to further our purposes or even trying to destroy them. Jewish people have a saying "Hitler tried to destroy the Jews by killing them. Some Christians are trying to destroy the Jews by converting them. Either way their purpose is to destroy the Jews." and other Christians who are focused on the Jews are dispensationalists who are trying to manipulate the Jews into fulfilling how they expect the world to end for their own selfish purposes of going to heaven. Our job is to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in His leading of them. Whether they ever join our church or not. Sometimes we are to help Jews become better Jews.

There was once a ecumental meeting with different Christian religions but also Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and others. They told about their religious traditions and love for God.  At the end a Baptist minister stood up. He said " I have had a strong evangelistic fervor and have been trying to convert everyone to Jesus. But now I see how God is working with all of you and how much you love him so I want to let  you know that I am just going to respect your faith and not try to share the gospel with you." and sadly I think that there are people in the ecumenical movement who has gotten stuck on this point. Fortunately God had a very wise Rabbi in this particular meeting. The Rabbi stood up and said "Brother, you have misunderstood the purpose of this meeting. You cannot say what you said because your leader Jesus commanded you to preach the gospel. Your job is to preach the gospel to us. We need the gospel. Our message is simply be careful in how you do it."

In Cambodia there was a dentist, Dr. Chang. He was a Buddhist. One day while at his job he heard that the Kamier Rouge had just taken power. He threw his glasses off his face and trampled them to pieces. He rushed home and took his family to a part of Cambodia where no one knew him and they all pretended to be illiterate and uneducated. When they had the chance they were able to cross the border with Thailand and go to a refugee camp.

In the refugee camp in Thailand there were Baptist missionaries and they "Accepted Jesus" from the camp they were able to make it to the United States. A powerful moment in his life was seeing the Golden Gate Bridge. In the USA he went to southern California where my Aunt Judith was helping Cambodian refugees. One of the things Aunt Judith would do was to take them to the Long Beach Cambodian Seventh-day Adventist church.

One Sabbath in church Aunt Judith noticed that Dr. Chan went pail and was shaking and quickly got up and walked out of the building. She went after him to see what was wrong. She found him standing in a quite place of the church pail and shaking. She asked what was wrong and he replied "It's HIM!" She asked him what he meant and he said "Ever since I was a child I felt that I had a friend. Now I could not see him or hear him or anything like that, but I knew that he was there and was as real to me as if I could see and hear him. I always felt that he was with me in life and guiding me. I believe it was his influence that made me throw my glasses to the floor and crush them and that it was he who lead me and my family out of danger and finally to the United States. He as always been real to me, just as real as you are. I learned about Jesus from the Baptist Missionaries and from you and the church here. But today I came to the realization that Jesus is this friend that I've had with me since childhood."

If Dr. Chan was killed by the Kamier Rouge as a Buddhist, or if he died in an accident or something before he became a "Christian" he would have recognized his friend at the second coming.

[Kevin H]

If anyone here has contact with Dr. Pfandl, please feel free to share these comments with him.

[Kevin H]

Oh, I forgot to add in the first post: He is seeing how Protestantism and Catholicism are grasping hands and indicates that soon we should also see it with spiritualism. We see here the same danger as looking to go back to the 5th head.

If we study Mrs. White, while we think of spiritualism as things like séances and Ouija boards and what is involved with the occult. But to Mrs. White this is only one popular way of spreading spiritualism, not spiritualism itself.

Spiritualism itself is the concept that we are the final authority of what is true. That what is true for you may not be true for me. That there is no right or wrong except for what you think is right or wrong.  In a series of Last Day Events lectures delivered at the Southern New England Campmeeting in 1976 the speaker pointed this out and how this has grown since the 1920s. He closed with (and I don't have the exact words here but something like) "If you are looking forward to the great spiritualistic events of the future, beware they occurred 50 years ago."

Had we not grasped hands with true spiritualism 90 years ago, we would not be having the dangers that Dr. Pfandi is pointing out in the above article. But sadly while waiting for the 5th head to return he is also looking forward to the reaching out of the hand to spiritualism. As we missed the true prophecy that happened 90 years ago and are still looking forward to it happening; so as we look to return to the 5th head, we will pass into the 7th unaware.

[Gerr]

Price of ecumenism?  Theological identity.

[fccool]

First of all ecumenism is not a call to compromise structural of theological identity.   It never was.

The overarching idea behind the ecumenism is mutual cooperation based on similar mission, and doesn't necessitate complete abandonment of individualistic beliefs when joining any given ecumenical organization.   For example, or local church belongs to Churches United in Christ organization that pools resources for various charity projects.   There are a wide variety of these organizations that perform all sorts of tasks based on ecumenical ideals.  You may have heard of some:

• Campus Crusade for Christ Highly ecumenical Christian organization focused on evangelism and discipleship over 190 countries in the world
• National Council of the Churches of Christ in the U.S.A.
• World Student Christian Federation
• Action of Churches Together in Scotland
• Christian Churches Together in the USA
• Churches Together in Britain and Ireland
• Churches Uniting in Christ
• Conference of European Churches
• Fellowship of Saint Alban and Saint Sergius
• Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity
• Taizé Community
• World Council of Churches
• World Alliance of Reformed Churches
• Edinburgh Churches Together

Creationism as a movement tends to be ecumenical in nature, and spans a wide variety of denominations and faiths who contribute to various organizations even though their individual beliefs may be different.

There tends to be automatic characterization of "ecumenical" being somehow detrimental.   Ecumenism is actually a Biblically-mandated ideal.   It's just so happens that every church thinks that they are THE ONE when it comes to conformity, and everyone should join it.

Adventists are not different in that regard.   Some go as far as declaring every other church as abomination and think that everyone should come out and join Adventism as per God's mandate.

[GayatfootofCross]

 

Adventists are not different in that regard.   Some go as far as declaring every other church as abomination and think that everyone should come out and join Adventism as per God's mandate.

​One of the signs of the end is literally Our church being so filled with God Himself that we will draw LGBTIQQAA  and others marginalized by our church culture  history.

If He Be lifted up in thought/ word/ action!

It is very wooing!

Like JESUS

 

It is never a good sign when a church just attracts its own  status quo.

 

[GayatfootofCross]

... think that everyone should come out and join Adventism as per God's mandate.

​God mandates that we would be like JESUS

that in itself would yield the fruit of awful sinners swarming to our churches. Which the Pharisees see as very offensive.

 

 

#follow the Fruit

 

Edited May 19, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

[Gerr]

The cost?  Loss of our corporate and individual identity!