Reflections on the Theology of Ordination Study Committee by Mark Finley

[Lauralea]

Elder Finley believes that there are more lessons to be learned in this debate than those dealing directly with ordination. He points out that most believers in the Upper Room at Pentecost were not ordained, yet the Holy Spirit was poured out on them and they were used to finish the work. I have heard him make statements that appear to indicate he favored Women's Ordination, but in this article he brings out other important issues associated with the issue rather than discussing his position per se.

 

http://www.adventistreview.org/reflections-on-the-tosc-deliberations

 

[Tom Wetmore]

Some very good thoughts by Elder Finley.  His sermon on Acts 15 is similarly compelling and instructive on the issue at hand.  

[Lauralea]

Some very good thoughts by Elder Finley.  His sermon on Acts 15 is similarly compelling and instructive on the issue at hand.  

sounds good Tom . Do you have a link?

[joeb]

Elder Finley believes that there are more lessons to be learned in this debate than those dealing directly with ordination. He points out that most believers in the Upper Room at Pentecost were not ordained, yet the Holy Spirit was poured out on them and they were used to finish the work. I have heard him make statements that appear to indicate he favored Women's Ordination, but in this article he brings out other important issues associated with the issue rather than discussing his position per se.

 

http://www.adventistreview.org/reflections-on-the-tosc-deliberations

 

I have never understood the fascination with being ordained.  To me it seems like it's an ego trip. 

The rewards that come with bringing someone to Christ so far outweigh whatever a person could get from ordination that there is no comparison.  Working for God is its own reward.  The joy that comes from it cannot be found in anything else on this earth. 

[Tom Wetmore]

Why do you see it as an ego trip?  Would you see it as the same thing if a tradesman sought to be certified as being qualified to practice his trade?  An aircraft mechanic for example getting certified by the FAA to work be able to work on a certain class of aircraft so that he can be hired by an airline to work on their airplanes?  Who needs the certificate if you know what you are doing?  Would you see that as an ego trip?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

 a "laying on of hands" ordination doesn't really mean that someone is "qualified" to practice his/her trade.  It's a piece of paper indicating endorsement by the SDA church for various purposes, including governmental purposes.  While an ordination committee might have gone through a process of determining a person's "calling," the knowledge and abilities/aptitudes of the person are really unknown to the general public, including church members.  

Someone who has received education in medicine, the legal arts, electricians, and so forth, are required to take state and/or national exams in order to practice their profession.  Theology students who graduate and become ministers/pastors do not have to pass a state or national certification exam... and, off-hand, I can't think of any other profession where a person doesn't need to pass muster to guard against poor professional work.  

Ordination, as far as I know, does not imply a standard of conduct or performance that is beyond that of a licensed minister.

I honestly don't see the purpose of "ordaining" anyone, men or women, when a licensed person can do the same work.  The idea of "laying on of hands" is actually rather creepy to my way of thinking... and reminds me more of nonsense, such as reflexology and reiki...

[Gregory Matthews]

An Ordained/Commissioned clergyperson has a greater freedom to baptize than does a licensed person.

A licensed person cannot hold certain elected offices. 

An ordained person may be elected President of the General Conference, a Commissioned/licensed person cannot serve as GC President.

There are other issues.

Ordained clergy are at the top of the denominational totem pole as to what they can do.

Commissioned clergy are a step below as to what they can do.

Licensed clergy are a step below Commissioned as to what they can do, but a step above Commissioned as to what they can be elevated to do, as they can become ordained.   Commissioned clergy are not expected to be ordained.

NOTE:  Both males and females in the SDA Church are Commissioned.  However, the majority of Commissioned people are female.

 

 

NOTE:  Females can fill Federal chaplaincy positions without being ordained.  The Federal courts have thrown out ordination as a criteria for working as a Federal chaplain on the grounds that  such a requirement discriminates both against women and also against denominations that do not ordain anyone.

NOTE:  I played a tangential role in the Federal decision that ordered the Department of Veterans' affairs to remove its requirement that  VA Chaplains be ordained.  A female filed a lawsuit against the VA over my selection for a 16 hour per week position as a VA chaplain and alleged that my selection amounted to discrimination against her.  The Court decided that the ordination requirement discriminated, as I have stated above.  but, it decided, in her case that

she was not selected due to the fact that she did not meet valid requirements to serve in that position.  So, the Court ordered the VA to remove the ordination requirement, as had previously been done in a military case.  Now the uniform requirement, on this issue, is that denominations "endorse" their candidates.  With this change "ordination" is considered to be an internal denominational matter in which the government does not have any interest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2015 by Gregory Matthews

[Lauralea]

Joeb ordination is similar to professional certification. As others have pointed out, it facilitates being able to serve. It is not that the act is so important, but not because it is an ego trip. The act hopefully recognizes the calling. In terms of it being "an ego trip" most of the people I have quoted regarding it are male. Not sure how it would be an ego trip for them. Because as others have pointed out it is a precondition for service, the discussion is in part about who can serve in what capacity in the church. And in China where thousands are being baptized by women, this is more than an academic issue. .

[joeb]

Why do you see it as an ego trip?  Would you see it as the same thing if a tradesman sought to be certified as being qualified to practice his trade?  An aircraft mechanic for example getting certified by the FAA to work be able to work on a certain class of aircraft so that he can be hired by an airline to work on their airplanes?  Who needs the certificate if you know what you are doing?  Would you see that as an ego trip?

OK.  Here's how I look at this....

Once someone has truly experienced things like what Austin Miles wrote about in "In the Garden" and has a personal knowledge of what Joseph Scriven wrote about in What a Friend We Have in Jesus all other things pale in comparison.  Ellen White says the following about this:

All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He
will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity
to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined
and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our
privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of
the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us.

As Christ lived the law in humanity, so we may do if we will take hold of the Strong for strength.
But we are not to place the responsibility of our duty upon others, and wait for them to tell us what
to do. We cannot depend for counsel upon humanity. The Lord will teach us our duty just as
willingly as He will teach somebody else. If we come to Him in faith, He will speak His mysteries
to us personally. Our hearts will often burn within us as One draws nigh to commune with us as
He did with Enoch. Those who decide to do nothing in any line that will displease God, will know,
after presenting their case before Him, just what course to pursue. And they will receive not only
wisdom, but strength. Power for obedience, for service, will be imparted to them, as Christ has
promised. Whatever was given to Christ—the “all things” to supply the need of fallen men—was
given to Him as the head and representative of humanity. And “whatsoever we ask, we receive of
Him, because we keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.” 1
John 3:22.  Desire of Ages p. 668

When we have experienced our hearts burning within us as Christ draws near to us to reveal His truths and the power to serve Him we have experienced the ultimate in spiritual rewards.  There is nothing else that comes even close to this.  No approbation from our fellow man is even in the ballpark when it comes what it means to us.

With this experience with Christ we have everything we need to serve Him.  We have the words, the understanding, the capacity, to serve God in ways that nothing else can provide.  No education, no degree, no ordination can come close.  We are whole when we have this experience with Christ.  We have peace, serenity, and a feeling of wholeness that is impossible to find in anything else. 

Now, if I have this experience with God and I daily walk with Him, why would I fight for something that is of far lesser value?  It's like seeing a piece of gravel and saying I just have to have it for I will be poor without it when I own the Hope diamond. 

Being ordained by the church is of no use without the ordination that comes from the Holy Spirit living within me.  I am of no use without it for without it I am as good as worthless in trying to bring others to Him.  However, if I have the Holy Spirit living within me I have the ordination that comes from God to work for Him.  With it comes all things I need to win souls for Him.  So, why, if I have a living, breathing, relationship with God that empowers me to successfully work for Him would I fight for, and create a great ruckus over, the lesser prize?  I have already gained what is needed, what brings the greatest personal rewards, for the peace, joy, and total contentment from my heart burning within me when my greatest Friend comes to live with me and the rewards of bringing souls to Him so that they can also know what I am experiencing are far beyond what an ordination from an organization here on earth can give.

Christ is so identifying Himself with me that when I follow Him, when I obey Him, that I am becoming like Him in all aspects.  His perfection is mine.  His peace is mine and I find my highest delight in working for Him.  Why would I not be satisfied with that?  What more could I ask for?  Why would I demand approbation from my fellow man when I have the greatest approbation that I could ever have already?    Wouldn't I be simply ego tripping to demand the lesser when I already have the greater?  I think so. 

Edited June 26, 2015 by joeb

[Lauralea]

I agree people should not fight, but most of the proponents I have heard or read are male, and the ones I listen to are not fightning but respectfully dialoging because they think it is the right thing to do and that the work of the church can be done more effectively in this way, It is very important to be kind, but actually it is more theological debates becoming heated that women fighting to be ordained that I have seen.

[Gregory Matthews]

Women who are not ordained know that they are limited in what they can do for God and the Church due to the fact that they are not ordained.  Certainly they can do much without ordination.  But, they are limited.  God can not use them in  some roles due to the fact that the Church will not allow them to be used  in some roles.

 

Women who believe that they are called by God rightfully ask that they not be limited by a human organization as to how they can be used by God.

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Women who are not ordained know that they are limited in what they can do for God and the Church due to the fact that they are not ordained.  Certainly they can do much without ordination.  But, they are limited.  God can not use them in  some roles due to the fact that the Church will not allow them to be used  in some roles.

 

Women who believe that they are called by God rightfully ask that they not be limited by a human organization as to how they can be used by God.

I'm perplexed.  What can't licensed ministers do that ordained ones can?  How are they limited in what they can do for God?  I'm referring to duties aside from being an elected official in the GC, Division, Union, or Conference - I really consider those individuals to be "business people" not necessarily in the business of personally spreading the gospel.. (sorry – I know that's not going to be a popular statement).  Can't licensed ministers preach, baptize, perform marriages, etc?  Maybe I'm under a misconception, and need enlightenment...  

[Gregory Matthews]

There are three levels of clergy:  Ordained, Commissioned and Licensed.

Yes, women can do almost everything that an Ordained person can do.  This is one of the reasons that I say that ordination is not the Biblical issue.  The Biblical issue is the role that one plays in spiritual nurture.

President  Ted, would tell you that he is not a businessperson and he is in spiritual ministry.  Conference Presidents would tell you that if they are doing their job as they should, they set the spiritual agenda for the Conference and/or they are in ministry in that they make it possible for their local pastors to be more effective and more successful.

Value and worth are often communicated in small ways.  In those small ways, women can fell like they are considered to be 2nd class citizens.

I am thinking of a male who a while back was ordained.  He did not have pastoral experience.  Following his ordination he did spend a short period of time as a temp. SDA pastor to a congregation.  He does not now pastor a congregation as he does not want to do so.

 

I am thinking of a woman who was Commissioned a while back.   While she does not pastor a congregation, she clearly in her day to day life fills the role of a clergyperson and in many of its aspects.  The policy of the North American Division is that a person who is a candidate to be Commissioned must  be serving as a local Elder in the church that the person attends.  This woman attends one of the larger congregations in her Conference.  That Congregation refuses to allow women to serve as local Elders.   The denomination does not have the power to force a congregation to elect someone to the position of local Elder.  So, here we have it.  Because she was female, she did not meet denominational policy criteria to be Commissioned.  Yet, she was serving in the role of SDA clergy, and on a day to day basis.  And, the denomination was not going to ordain her due to the fact that she was female. 

The problem was resolved when a formal request was made to the North American Division to allow her to be Commissioned in spite of the fact that she was not serving as a local Elder.  Input to this request involved administrators all the way up to the General Conference.  Permission was granted.  At her Commissioning administrators from the local Conference, the Union and the General Conference participated.  Yes, I was there and participated in a small way.  Union and GC personnel spent some money to attend and send a message that it was appropriate to Commission her.  She was Commissioned in the actual church building of the congregation that she attended.

If you are reading this and are female.  How would you feel as you reflected on that involved process that took place before you could be Commissioned and realized that if you had been a male, not only would you have been ordained, but the process would have been much simpler.

 

As a point of interest, a couple of non-SDA clergy, of some professional standing, who were well aware of the involved process that had been associated with her  being commissioned attended her service to show their support.

 

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[Gregory Matthews]

I find the following interesting:

Under denominational policy a female may serve as a General Conference Vice President, and one presently so serves.  But, that same woman can not, according to GC policy, be elected to serve as a local Conference President!

 

It just does not make a lot of sense.

In my role, I have contact with non-SDA clergy who have read about our denominational issues about women in clergy roles.  They ask me how it can make any sense at all for a denomination has was co-founded by a woman (EGW) to have issues about female clergy.   They are right. 

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

There are three levels of clergy:  Ordained, Commissioned and Licensed.

Yes, women can do almost everything that an Ordained person can do.  This is one of the reasons that I say that ordination is not the Biblical issue.  The Biblical issue is the role that one plays in spiritual nurture.

President  Ted, would tell you that he is not a businessperson and he is in spiritual ministry.  Conference Presidents would tell you that if they are doing their job as they should, they set the spiritual agenda for the Conference and/or they are in ministry in that they make it possible for their local pastors to be more effective and more successful.

Value and worth are often communicated in small ways.  In those small ways, women can fell like they are considered to be 2nd class citizens.

Gregory, thanks for the clarification.  For some reason, I had equated "commissioned" with "ordained"... 

I agree that ordination is not the Biblical issue.  

I'm still wondering what specific duties an ordained person can do that a commissioned or licensed person cannot do..

 

As an aside, and not trying to get this thread off topic, but what, exactly, is the job description of the GC President?  What, exactly, does the President do that is "spiritual ministry" that requires him to be ordained?  

 

 

[CoAspen]

GM,

A tempest in a teapot....much ado about nothing? By that I mean, we should not be having this issue because the equality in all areas for women would have been a no-brainer.  The .org created the issue and now seem to not get out of that shadow.

[Johann]

Back in 1956 when I finished my ministerial course in College - Emmanuel Missionary College - so many young men were tsking that coure in the United States with the Government paying for their education because they had served in the military. Therefore the conferences in the US were not able to emplay but a fraction of the graduates. A BA with a major in theology and a minor in history was the offical requirement at that time.

One of my teachers said he could get me a job as a church school teacher in the Ohio or Indiana Conference. He advised me to take the job and then show a great interest in the local church. Then the Conference might consider me if there was a later opening in the ministry. Then I'd be hired as an apprentice working together with an experienced pastor/evangelist. If the conference would then see light in me working in the ministry, I might be assigned a district, and if I would there do a decent job I'd be considered for ordination.

Traditionally ordination in the SDA church was not a transfer of magical powers, but a final acknowledgement that the person had passed several years of trial and testing, and during this period shown that this was his [her] right calling.