Robert Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 When you say "there is no answer", you are correct! There is no answer, because God would not set into motion a course of action which would inevitably lead to sin. How do you know? You are guessing....you are using your finite mind to judge something.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 Your idea here doesn't work. If sin were inevitable once free-will beings were created, then there would be a flaw in the process. Well, God could have made robots, right?....So He knew that free-will would eventually lead to independence and self-love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) To speculate means to form a theory or conjecture without evidence. I am not doing this. I am arguing against your idea on the basis of firm evidence. We have evidence that God would not set into motion a course of action which would make sin inevitable by considering His character. You have no firm evidence; only conjecture. Again, God didn't create sin. He created free-will beings that, out of being ignorant, would become independent and self-adsorbed. We are told that this will never happen again. Why? Because what sounded good on paper when actually put to the test resulted in chaos. Therefore future created being and those recreated will never be ignorant again concerning the nature of independence from God, the source of agape.... Edited August 31, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I'll put your last 4 posts together, since they're short and addressing the same thing. Me: What speculation? I've been arguing against a position you hold, that God knew Lucifer would sin but created him anyway. Robert: It's not a position. It's fact, unless you dumb God down. Based on what? This is an idea from your own head. It's not based on Scripture, which I've repeatedly pointed out, and you haven't even tried to refute. You are making yourself an arbiter of truth. This has been the problem of this whole discussion regarding the problem of the entrance of sin. Robert: And that's what you are doing, i.e., making Him like us, which is blasphemous. My whole argument is that God is *not* like us. God would not set into a motion a course which would inevitably lead to sin, because He is NOT like us! Me: When you say "there is no answer", you are correct! There is no answer, because God would not set into motion a course of action which would inevitably lead to sin. Robert: How do you know? You are guessing....you are using your finite mind to judge something.... Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I'm presenting evidence for what I'm asserting. For example, from the Spirit of Prophecy: Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. (GC 492) It would be interesting to know what Scriptures she had in mind, but she didn't say here, but I agree with her assertion that God is no way responsible for the entrance of sin, and that the Scriptures clearly teach this. Notice also the assertion that sin is an intruder for whose presence no reason can be given. Now if your idea that God knew Lucifer would sin but created him anyway, it would be easy to give a reason for the existance of sin: God knew Lucifer would sin but created him anyway. You have presented no Scriptural evidence whatsoever that "God knew Lucifer would sin but created him anyway." Me: Your idea here doesn't work. If sin were inevitable once free-will beings were created, then there would be a flaw in the process. Robert: Well, God could have made robots, right?....So He knew that free-will would eventually lead to independence and self-love. No. Free-will doesn't lead to independence and self-love. There were millions of worlds created, and only one planet of these millions of worlds has sin. If free-will led to sindependence and self-love, how could there only be one planet from hundreds of millions which has sin? There is no reason why perfectly created beings should rebel against a good God. Sin was not inevitable, but a fluke, an "intruder", so for which "no reason" can be given for its existence. You're on the right track, however, when you ask if God could have created robots. Once God chose to create beings with free will, that opened the *possibility* of sin, but not the certainty of sin. Your thinking that sin was inevitable is wrong for at least two reasons. One is that it implies that there is something inherently flawed with creation. The Spirit of Prophecy quote above makes clear that there was no flaw in God's creation which explains the existence of sin. Secondly, it would be contrary to God's character to make sin inevitable. I don't know how you can be familiar with scripture and think this is "speculation". The cross is the clearest evidence to the fact that God would never, in essence, create sin (which is what setting into motion a course of action which could only result in sin is tantamount to). God hates sin! It is the entithesis of agape. God could never do something to make sin inevitable any more than He could lie, or tempt others to evil, or do anything else contrary to His character. Me: To speculate means to form a theory or conjecture without evidence. I am not doing this. I am arguing against your idea on the basis of firm evidence. We have evidence that God would not set into motion a course of action which would make sin inevitable by considering His character. Robert: You have no firm evidence; only conjecture. There is the entirety of Scripture which testifies to the truth that God is agape, and agape does not sin, nor even tempt to sin, nor do anything which leads to or causes sin. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) You are making yourself an arbiter of truth. Yes, because I have to understand Scripture, not based on your presuppositions, but the way I'm led by the Spirit of God. St. Peter will not ask me, "what did Pnattmbtc say?" at the gate. You have presented no Scriptural evidence whatsoever that "God knew Lucifer would sin but created him anyway." God is all-knowing. He is omniscient. He is sovereign. The Scriptures are absolute on these points. What you do is dumb down God's foreknowledge and therefore make God human like where He is not all-knowing. Free-will doesn't lead to independence and self-love. No, not everyone with a free-will goes the route of independence and self-love, but nevertheless God had to know this would take place and according to Ellen White He and Christ knew this before the creation of Lucifer. Edited August 31, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) There is the entirety of Scripture which testifies to the truth that God is agape, and agape does not sin, nor even tempt to sin, nor do anything which leads to or causes sin. You say that God, who is agape, will do nothing that "leads to sin". Okay, then God had no clue that Lucifer would sin. He was like humans who have no foreknowledge. Or God in His foreknowledge knew Lucifer would become independent which would lead him to oppose God's agape..... Edited August 31, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) 1] God is not the author of sin and death. 2] God created free-will beings in His image and His likeness. 3] God is the source of agape & immortality for all created beings. Therefore as long as these free-will beings remained dependent* upon Him there was peace and harmony throughout the universe. 4] Lucifer, via his free-will, chose to become independent of God his source of agape & immortality. * See John 15:5 "apart (independent) from Me you can do nothing" Edited September 1, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Me:You are making yourself an arbiter of truth. Robert:Yes, because I have to understand Scripture, not based on your presuppositions, but the way I'm led by the Spirit of God. No, if only this were the reason, that would be great! No, the comment was based on your saying the following: Me: What speculation? I've been arguing against a position you hold, that God knew Lucifer would sin but created him anyway. Robert: It's not a position. It's fact, unless you dumb God down. There's no Scripture here, no argument. Nothing. Just a gratuituous assumption. Me:You have presented no Scriptural evidence whatsoever that "God knew Lucifer would sin but created him anyway." Robert: God is all-knowing. He is omniscient. He is sovereign. The Scriptures are absolute on these points. What you do is dumb down God's foreknowledge and therefore make God human like where He is not all-knowing. Where is any post where I have "dumbed down" God's foreknowledge? If you disagree with something I've written, quote it, and present some sort of argument with evidence. Indeed, God is all-knowing, omniscient, and sovereign. However, if the Scriptures agreed with your ideas of God's omniscience, and sovereignty, you should be able to present some sort of argument using them. Please do so. On this question, there are many different views, some of which I mentioned at the beginning of the discussion. Yours is not the only way to look at the issue. I'm not expecting you will come to agree with my position (as you apparently don't even know what it is) but I hope you'll open your horizons beyond simply what you currently think and become aware that there are other possibilities. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Me: Free-will doesn't lead to independence and self-love. Robert: No, not everyone with a free-will goes the route of independence and self-love, but nevertheless God had to know this would take place and according to Ellen White He and Christ knew this before the creation of Lucifer. Given that not everyone with a free-will goes the route of independence and self-love, and given that God knows exactly who would go down this route, why would God create *any* free-will beings that would go down this route? Is the route of self-love somehow virtuous? Better than agape? Why not only create the free-will beings that wouldn't go down this route? They would still have as much free-will without sin as with sin. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 There is the entirety of Scripture which testifies to the truth that God is agape, and agape does not sin, nor even tempt to sin, nor do anything whichleads to or causes sin. Robert: You say that God, who is agape, will do nothing that "leads to sin". Okay, then God had no clue that Lucifer would sin. He was like humans who have no foreknowledge. Or God in His foreknowledge knew Lucifer would become independent which would lead him to oppose God's agape..... You've created a false dichotomy here. You're looking at this as if these are the only two possibilities, but in fact, there are a number of possibilities. First of all, rather than considering God's foreknowledge, let's consider the nature of the future. Is it single-threaded, like the past, or multi-threaded, different than the past? What I've been suggesting is that the future is not fixed or settled. You're operating from the assumption that it is fixed, but that need not be the case, and much of inspiration (as well as our own conviction that we have free will) argues that it is not. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 1] God is not the author of sin and death. 2] God created free-will beings in His image and His likeness. 3] God is the source of agape & immortality for all created beings. Therefore as long as these free-will beings remained dependent* upon Him there was peace and harmony throughout the universe. 4] Lucifer, via his free-will, chose to become independent of God his source of agape & immortality. * See John 15:5 "apart (independent) from Me you can do nothing" We could add: 6)God is in no way responsible for the entrance of sin. Your idea that "God knew Lucifer would sin but created him anyway" contradicts 1) and 6), which is why I am arguing against it. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) We could add: 6)God is in no way responsible for the entrance of sin. Sure He is....He didn't invent it, but He allowed it when He could have stopped it. But He knew that if He created free-will beings it would happen. Edited September 1, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) You've created a false dichotomy here. You're looking at this as if these are the only two possibilities, but in fact, there are a number of possibilities. First of all, rather than considering God's foreknowledge, let's consider the nature of the future. Is it single-threaded, like the past, or multi-threaded, different than the past? What I've been suggesting is that the future is not fixed or settled. You're operating from the assumption that it is fixed, but that need not be the case, and much of inspiration (as well as our own conviction that we have free will) argues that it is not. Here we go again with your high minded, egocentric thinking....Keep it simple: God knew! In fact God knows if you will be ultimately saved or not....Deal with it! Edited September 1, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) Given that not everyone with a free-will goes the route of independence and self-love, and given that God knows exactly who would go down this route, why would God create *any* free-will beings that would go down this route? Is the route of self-love somehow virtuous? Ask God during the 1000 years that Satan and His band of merry angels get to look at the results of their cherished love of self. Do you think that asking me makes you look intelligent? Well, it doesn't because no one knows!. Patience.... Edited September 1, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 Why not only create the free-will beings that wouldn't go down this route? Oh, be dishonest and hide the problem of self? You are asking God to manipulate the outcome. That's immoral.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 I'm not expecting you will come to agree with my position (as you apparently don't even know what it is) but I hope you'll open your horizons beyond simply what you currently think and become aware that there are other possibilities. No, no other possibilities....Your position is in the waste basket where it belongs.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) We could add: 6)God is in no way responsible for the entrance of sin. Robert: Sure He is....He didn't invent it, but He allowed it when He could have stopped it. But He knew that if He created free-will beings it would happen. We're coming full circle here. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin (GC 492) What you are asserting here is in direct contradiction to the above, which is the problem of what you have been asserting. It is accusing God of something of which He is innocent. Edited September 1, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) You've created a false dichotomy here. You're looking at this as if these are the only two possibilities, but in fact, there are a number of possibilities. First of all, rather than considering God's foreknowledge, let's consider the nature of the future. Is it single-threaded, like the past, or multi-threaded, different than the past? What I've been suggesting is that the future is not fixed or settled. You're operating from the assumption that it is fixed, but that need not be the case, and much of inspiration (as well as our own conviction that we have free will) argues that it is not. Robert: Here we go again with your high minded, egocentric thinking....Keep it simple: God knew! In fact God knows if you will be ultimately saved or not....Deal with it! This isn't responsive to what I wrote. Did you understand what I wrote? Edited September 1, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Given that not everyone with a free-will goes the route of independence and self-love, and given that God knows exactly who would go down this route, why would God create *any* free-will beings that would go down this route? Is the route of self-love somehow virtuous? Robert: Ask God during the 1000 years that Satan and His band of merry angels get to look at the results of their cherished love of self. Do you think that asking me makes you look intelligent? Well, it doesn't because no one knows!. Patience.... I'm asking you, because it make clear the error in your thinking. There isn't any reason, of course, that God would do this. Hence your idea doesn't make sense; it's not in harmony with God's character. It would make sin something to be desired (i.e., that God desired). This can't be. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I'm not expecting you will come to agree with my position (as you apparently don't even know what it is) but I hope you'll open your horizons beyond simply what you currently think and become aware that there are other possibilities. Robert: No, no other possibilities.... This made me laugh. No other possibilities? That effectively cuts out learning anything. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 2, 2015 Author Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) What you are asserting here is in direct contradiction to the above, which is the problem of what you have been asserting. It is accusing God of something of which He is innocent. No, He is not innocent....He is innnocent of inventing sin, but He is not innocent of permitting it to flourish. He knew Lucifer would sin, but He created him anyway. Why? We can only speculate. The judgment will reveal why He created Lucifer knowing that he would sin..... Edited September 2, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 2, 2015 Author Share Posted September 2, 2015 This made me laugh. No other possibilities? That effectively cuts out learning anything. There's nothing to learn because we do not know. To pretend that you do demonstrates your nature is at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 2, 2015 Author Share Posted September 2, 2015 This isn't responsive to what I wrote. Did you understand what I wrote? More questions.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 2, 2015 Author Share Posted September 2, 2015 I'm asking you, because it make clear the error in your thinking. No error...only fact. God knew! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 2, 2015 Author Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) There isn't any reason, of course, that God would do this. Hence your idea doesn't make sense; it's not in harmony with God's character. .... Why would God enter into the Old Covenant with Israel when He knew that they could not obey the law and thus fulfill the it? The answer involves no speculation.....I ask this to prove that just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't prove it to be error. Edited September 2, 2015 by Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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