Change of Focus

[Cutielovepeanut]

June 27, 2015

 

To The SDA Church,

 

RE: General Conference being held in Texas

 

I have been observing the church for 5 years through the controversies and have come to a conclusion that I would like to share with you:

 

The major issues that you are voting on are moot points right now. They are distractions from the true salvation of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. For example. The ordination of women. If they are or aren’t being ordained is irrelevant. If people follow women as leaders, and believe wholeheartedly that they are doing the will of God then let them, the Holy Spirit will convict them of their wrong path.

 

Church salvation starts with self, and by focusing on these issues, we are crippling our walk with Christ as a church. After 7 years of practicing the 12 steps in my life, I have realized how unsuccessful, unreal, and disconnected my idea of salvation was. I became whole through clearing away my addictions (sins we cannot let go of), and realized that when our sides of the street are cleared, God enters your life in a manner that allows you to see clearly what is truly going on around you, and you find focus in the things that really matter, and that is making yourself right with God and to strengthen your faith and love in Him.

 

Theoretically, if you were to see that the world were to end in two years, would you look back and say, well at least we dealt with the issue of ordination? Or would you look back and say, what did I do to ensure that people had the tools to release themselves of the bondage of sin and spiritual darkness?

 

Please give light to the NAD’s 12 step group taken from Steps to Christ and rebuilt this church on a firm foundation and we can meet these issues when we are healthy as a church.

 

Anne Isaac

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

 

[Stan]

Well put Anne Isaac

[Cutielovepeanut]

I hope that the people at the conference will realize that whatever decision they are going to make on this topic will divide the church and many will leave. I vote for a Deferral until we as individuals and as a church are in a better place to make a decision like this. 

The women in our church are already accusing the church of being sexist and now I've heard that people are refusing to listen to Doug Batchelor/Stephen Bauer, etc etc. because they now think that they are probably wrong on all issues because they "know" they are wrong on this issue and how can they be wrong and right at the same time in their ministry. 

Dont shoot yourselves in the foot just yet anyway. 

It's the perfect distraction from the fact that this world is toast. Donezoooo. It's over man... 

Edited July 2, 2015 by aisaac070
spelling

[Kevin H]

In many ways I agree with you aisaac070, however this decision for a deferral has been the church's stand for well over 100 years. In the first decade of the 1900s there were conferences and unions that decided to ordain women. General Conference President A. G. Daniels agreed with them that they should ordain women but asked them to wait just a little bit while members who thought that the Bible was against women's ordination could be educated. Then every time the issue came up again it's been deferred saying that it should be done but this is not the time. The Anti- ordination people want the ignorance that Elder Daniels asked for some time to fight against to become the standard. How long should it be deferred until we start doing it?

[LifeHiscost]

Well put Anne Isaac

Ditto!

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

In many ways I agree with you aisaac070, however this decision for a deferral has been the church's stand for well over 100 years. In the first decade of the 1900s there were conferences and unions that decided to ordain women. General Conference President A. G. Daniels agreed with them that they should ordain women but asked them to wait just a little bit while members who thought that the Bible was against women's ordination could be educated. Then every time the issue came up again it's been deferred saying that it should be done but this is not the time. The Anti- ordination people want the ignorance that Elder Daniels asked for some time to fight against to become the standard. How long should it be deferred until we start doing it?

I'm somewhat of the opinion of aisaac070 last post. I also have listened to certain woman in the Adventist church who handle the Word with the power of the Spirit and see no reason the Spirits' ordination needs improvement.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[Tom Wetmore]

As Kevin has pointed out, more time is not the answer. The Church has been playing kick the can down the road on this issue for well over 100 years.  The Church has missed multiple opportunities to resolve this issue already as the result of those calling for more time.  A number of those opportunities came at times when there was enough support for WO to have passed it. And the suggestion for more education on the matter has only resulted in efforts to bury the issue and educational resources and opportunities and frustrate efforts to move forward.   It has been an endless cycle of delay until those who are well informed on the issue are dead and gone so that when the issue comes up again it is starting over again as if the issue is new and never addressed before.  

My impression is that it is those with their minds firmly made up in opposition to WO that are the source of the overwhelming majority of those calling for more time, or insisting the people within their territories need more time to study and more information or any number of efforts to delay or change the subject. Obviously those convinced of the propriety of recognizing women as full participants in the gospel ministry are not asking for more time.  What is disturbing is that in many areas of the Church, leadership opposed to WO make no real effort to actually educate the membership on the issue in an honest and balance way, if at all.  It is far from a priority.  And  it seems a bit disingenuous for those who have failed to provide education for the people to call for more time when they have not taken the time they have been urged to take in the last few years.

The time is now. We cannot afford to bury another generation and be forced to start over yet again.

[Naomi]

I submit that if we do not have this vote now it will only serve to farther divide the church.  Lines have been drawn alliances made, whichever way it goes there will be hostile people.  There will also be God's children who understand that our purpose is to be servants and spread the message.  Those truly committed will continue whatever the outcome!  Women have been preaching and ministering since Bible times. 

 

[Tom Wetmore]

To those who try to silence this movement with delay and diversionary efforts to change the subject, the wisdom of Gamaliel from Acts 5:38-39 always comes to my mind - "For if this counsel or this work is of men, it will be overthrown. But if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow it, and you would be found even to be fighting against God!"

 

 

Edited July 2, 2015 by Tom Wetmore

[LifeHiscost]

To those who try to silence this movement with delay and diversionary efforts to change the subject, the wisdom of Gamaliel from Acts 5:38-39 always comes to my mind - "For if this counsel or this work is of men, it will be overthrown. But if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow it, and you would be found even to be fighting against God!"

 

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Stan]

To those who try to silence this movement with delay and diversionary efforts to change the subject, the wisdom of Gamaliel from Acts 5:38-39 always comes to my mind - "For if this counsel or this work is of men, it will be overthrown. But if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow it, and you would be found even to be fighting against God!"

Interesting timing, I did my editorial around that for July.. Page 46 and 47

http://www.adventist.ca/3dissue/messenger/84-7/index.html

 

 

[LifeHiscost]

 

Having read your article, Stan, reminds me of an early experience when I wasn't following the trend of thought of the leadership for my own decisions in personal spiritual growth. Through word of mouth I found my reputation became negatively influenced, leading to some personal loss for ever being seen as trustworthy among the brethren. Reading the Scripture as the voice of God on a personal level, was the only thing that kept me with the decided conclusion, Jesus still wanted me in His Kingdom.

31What therefore shall we say about these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32And if he did not show pity upon his Son, but he handed him over for the sake of us all, how shall he not give us everything with him? 33Who shall accuse The Elect

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;…of God? God is He Who declares righteous. 34Who is condemning? The Messiah has died and he is risen, and he is at the right hand of God and he prays for us....Romans 8

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[debbym]

 

I'm somewhat of the opinion of aisaac070 last post. I also have listened to certain woman in the Adventist church who handle the Word with the power of the Spirit and see no reason the Spirits' ordination needs improvement.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

does the Spirits' ordination need improvement for male pastors?

[LifeHiscost]

does the Spirits' ordination need improvement for male pastors?

If it isn't specifically indicated as necessary by the Word and one feels the necessity for the laying on of hands, it would seem to me perhaps the Holy Spirit is leading with the undercurrent of humility, to accept what develops as from Him.

12Then the name of our Lord Jesus will be honored because of the way you live, and you will be honored along with him. This is all made possible because of the grace of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ.... 2 Thessalonians 1

God is Love!!  Jesus saves! 

[debbym]

apparently people have been ordained without laying on of hands.

people have been married without a wedding also.  in various parts of the world there are a variety of ways the information that two are committed to each other, for life.  not always a formal wedding.

a wedding formalizes to the community something that has already happened, two people love each other and have made a commitment to build a home together.  the wedding doesn't make it so, it just makes known publicly the commitment that already exists.

maybe ordination is something like that.  it is not necessary to the commitment to God, and the ministry that is already taking place, but it makes a public statement about what already is.

[Gregory Matthews]

aisaac0780:  While I would not agree with everything that you have said, you have given us something to think about.

 

[BrendaM.]

aisaac0780:

Anne says “The ordination of women. If they are or aren’t being ordained is irrelevant.” And yet Paul gives clear council as to who should be ordained. If the Bible speaks on a subject then that subject is important. To call a subject that the Bible deals clearly on “irrelevant”, or to avoid a truth because ‘it’s not a salvation issue’ is Biblically dishonest, and spiritually dangerous.

 

If we deny the truth, in any form, whether it be Sabbath observance, Tithe, diet, honoring one’s parents, and so on, that becomes a salvation issue. As the close of time approaches, we should be more concerned with proper church order and leadership, not less.

 

In the end, what Paul says is clear. Men are to be the spiritual leaders of both home and church. That is what is written, that is what should be done. 

[pierrepaul]

... what Paul says is clear.

Well, that's what this is all about. For many SdAs what Paul wrote is not clear, or perhaps is clear but in the opposite way that you think.

[Kevin H]

Paul has often been translated via current cultures and assumptions that is not always in his words but which we think are there due to how it was translated and how tradition tells us it should be understood.

[Johann]

Was Peter inspired when he stated that some of the things Paul wrote was difficut to understand? Why did he try to explain some of it?

[Cutielovepeanut]

Ok, Well I would like to address alot of people on my post. 

First I will say, I am NOT for women's ordination. and when I said its irrelevant....RIGHT NOW, I meant the church is a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off RIGHT NOW, thus they are in no place to make any kind of decisions. ALSO, Ive heard that we have been avoiding this issue for many years. No, we've voted NO everytime. Its pretty clear that we are making decisions, its just that people want a king of Isreal... right? 

 

Secondly, Everyone is trying to think their way out of a brown paper box. Rip the sides open. You are focusing on intellectual salvation because you literally have no tools other than prayer to make changes in your lives and the church and then when God does answer prayers and open doors, you are too afraid to walk through them. 

 

Ive been in Alcoholics Anonymous for over 7 years, where people are give up everything to follow God, they sometimes have to give up their kids, their house, their jobs, their whole life, without knowing if God will return it to them, in order to get right with God. Ive seen strength in sacrifice far beyond anything Ive ever seen in the church. I've seen people spend 5-20 years mailing people 5 dollars a week as financial amends for their past life, Ive seen people go on welfare and end up with nothing but a firm foundation in God. 

 

I want the 12 steps in the church so people can remove sin from their lives enough to get some kind of clarity on how sick they really are right now. And when someone tries to bring a practical solution to a tangible problem in the church, you shun it thinking its a new age movement, meanwhile noone will even pick up their copies of steps to christ to see that Ellen White gave us these simple steps to prepare us for the second coming, which in my opinion is alot sooner than anyone thinks. 

 

In fact, when the Pope comes in September, Jade Helm ends in September, The UN meets in September, I think there is going to be more movement toward persecution than believable now. 

 

Your intellect and study is great, but what is that if you are sitting at home watching porn and crying to God after saying you can't stop? Or are attached to your houses to the point where you would do anything to hold on to them, or even the sin of slander. Which the old people and young people are very guilty of regarding clothing, lifestyles, and attitudes. 

I don't know, its gotten to the point where I can only do my work for God on the internet giving resources to the world. Ive sat at too many board meetings and sent over 1600 letters to the conferences in Canada and the States and I received SIX replies, three saying they appreciate my opinion, and three telling me to take them off my "mailing list". 

 

I don't mind fighting the world and accepting persecution, but I refuse, to accept in within my church. 

Edited July 19, 2015 by aisaac070

[Cutielovepeanut]

Excerpted from ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Chapter 6 
"INTO ACTION" (Page 83-84)

If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are half way through.

1. We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness.
2. We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it.
3. We will comprehend the word serenity
4. and we will know peace.
5. No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others.
6. That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear.
7. We will lose interest in selfish things and gain insight into our fellows.
8. Self-seeking will slip away.
9. Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change.
10. Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us.
11. We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us.
12. We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for outselves.

Are these extravagant promises? We think not. They are being fulfilled among us - sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. They will always materialize if we work for them.

[LifeHiscost]

apparently people have been ordained without laying on of hands.

people have been married without a wedding also.  in various parts of the world there are a variety of ways the information that two are committed to each other, for life.  not always a formal wedding.

a wedding formalizes to the community something that has already happened, two people love each other and have made a commitment to build a home together.  the wedding doesn't make it so, it just makes known publicly the commitment that already exists.

maybe ordination is something like that.  it is not necessary to the commitment to God, and the ministry that is already taking place, but it makes a public statement about what already is.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Stan]

>>>>I don't mind fighting the world and accepting persecution, but I refuse, to accept in within my church.  t

The early Church had a lot of harsh debating, and correction over that., it can be a good thing.

The early Adventist movement was similar, but the end product was good.

 

We can still disagree and worship together.. .

[Johann]

 

"We  have this hope. . ."

[brotherly love]

To those who try to silence this movement with delay and diversionary efforts to change the subject, the wisdom of Gamaliel from Acts 5:38-39 always comes to my mind - "For if this counsel or this work is of men, it will be overthrown. But if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow it, and you would be found even to be fighting against God!"

 

 

There is a few problems with what you have written.

Firstly, what you have provided in acts 5 is a classic proof text taken out of context. The words of Gamaliel are a witness against himself and the Sanhedrin. Not any doctrine you may disagree with.

He used a few examples of movements that were not from God and were human in origin...and they failed. These words are a witness against the Sanhedrin as they opposed God and then failed to exist themselves, along with the Temple they resided over-effectively making the religion of the Torah impossible to practice.

The logical outcome of how you have used this verse would be ripe with confusion. Islam,  Satanism, Buddism, Hinduism and a whole host of other movements would then also have to be accepted as being from God.

Secondly, with your strong implication of "fighting against God" in the passage you would have to believe that the gates of hell did prevail against the bride of Christ despite His words otherwise. remember, this has been the belief and practice of the church for almost 1900 years.