Saying no to Adventist Colonialism

[lazarus]

The WO ordination vote was also a NO to continued Colonialism in the church.

Colonialism: the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically.

The analogy does not extend fully but I'm sure you get my meaning.

For decades Adventists in the western nations have dominated and controlled the rest of the world. The tide has turned. The Global South is saying you have to listen to us now.

 

[B/W Photodude]

The WO ordination vote was also a NO to continued Colonialism in the church.

Actually, I have said much the same thing here before! Liberals are always going on about the way we treat other nations and how the North Americans dominate the world church, but when it comes to one of their pet issues they want to say to the rest of the church in other countries, "Sit down and shut up!" We have the world church saying no, and North Americans, Euros, and Ozzies are bent out of shape over the issue!

[lazarus]

 Liberals are always going on about the way we treat other nations and how the North Americans dominate the world church,

IMHO, Conservative SDA's have just as much of the colonial spirit but we in an "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" scenario right now as far as conservatives are concerned.

[LifeHiscost]

The WO ordination vote was also a NO to continued Colonialism in the church.

Colonialism: the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically.

The analogy does not extend fully but I'm sure you get my meaning.

For decades Adventists in the western nations have dominated and controlled the rest of the world. The tide has turned. The Global South is saying you have to listen to us now.

 

We all do have the freedom of choice the Word gives. I speak as a Seventh Day Adventist Christian.

2And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God. 3And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!…Revelation 15

16And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.…Revelation 13

God is Love.  Jesus saves! 

[Kevin H]

This is an important topic and I'm interested in the discussion here. However B/Wphotodude, women's ordination is NOT a liberal/conservative issue as there are many conservatives who support women's ordination.

[Gregory Matthews]

So, do we now have African colonialism?

 

[lazarus]

So, do we now have African colonialism?

 

Seems like a rhetorical question since clearly power and control still rests overwhelmingly with the western nations. Care to say more, Greg?

[lazarus]

This is an important topic and I'm interested in the discussion here. 

Kevin H. Would like to hear what you think.

IMHO another unintended and perhaps unseen consequence of the NO vote is increased white flight from the church. In my experience whites tend not to remain in environments where they are no longer dominant. This is true for the local church and perhaps true for the world church. There seems to be more and more talk about this  "not being my church anymore".

I say this as someone who has seen dramatic white flight in my own country. 

 

[Johann]

We all do have the freedom of choice the Word gives. I speak as a Seventh Day Adventist Christian.

16And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.…Revelation 13

God is Love.  Jesus saves! 

Have you noticed the two "or" in verse 17? Could that mean that there is more than one distinguishing mark?

[whbae]

Lazarus said;

The WO ordination vote was also a NO to continued Colonialism in the church.

Colonialism: the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically. 

The analogy does not extend fully but I'm sure you get my meaning.

For decades Adventists in the western nations have dominated and controlled the rest of the world. The tide has turned. The Global South is saying you have to listen to us now.

 

Your statement about the Adventists in the western nations ........  is partly true .   This happened in the infancy of the country where the missionary work started partly because the westerners(Americans did not know or did not want to know the customs of the nation where missionary work was being conducted.  Now, those nations want to conduct the affairs their own way according to their own ways.  There are a lot of countries still do not want to have equal rights for women whether it is right or wrong.

 

WO was voted, not forced on by the American delegates .

[Tom Wetmore]

* * *

This happened in the infancy of the country where the missionary work started partly because the westerners(Americans did not know or did not want to know the customs of the nation where missionary work was being conducted.  Now, those nations want to conduct the affairs their own way according to their own ways. ... 

That is one of the strange ironies, or logical disconnects in this whole matter.  These areas are asserting their voting strength to push back against NAD running the Church and telling them what to do.  Not learning from that domination by NAD, they turn around and repeat the very same mistake by essentially asserting that they are in charge and and free to do their own thing according to their own ways, but insisting that NAD and the other pro-WO Divisions cannot do likewise and attempting to force their point of view on those Divisions in favor of women in ministry.  Backlash against colonialism by creating a new form of it.

[LifeHiscost]

Have you noticed the two "or" in verse 17? Could that mean that there is more than one distinguishing mark?

My understanding is that the first "or' would cover commerce, whichever direction one is involved in (buying or selling), and the 2nd "or"  is somewhat metaphorical pointing out one's mental assent (the forehead) to keeping the mark the beast has instituted as their act of complying, but not necessarily  agreeing with it either although fulfilling the beasts (the physical organization's) requisites in opposition to God's seal. 

  

Letter from C.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons on October 28, 1895:

Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act…And the act is a MARK of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.

“The Question Box,” The Catholic Universe Bulletin (August 14, 1942): 4:

The (Catholic) Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter, the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.

Catholic Priest T. Enright, CSSR, lecture at Hartford, KS, Feb 18, 1884:

I have repeatedly offered $1000 to any one who can furnish any proof from the Bible that Sunday is the day we are bound to keep...The Bible says, “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy,” but the Catholic Church says, “No, keep the first day of the week,” and the whole world bows in obedience.

 

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.....2 Timothy 2
 

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God [do not offend or vex or sadden Him], by Whom you were sealed (marked, branded as God’s own, secured) for the day of redemption (of final deliverance through Christ from evil and the consequences of sin).Ephesians 4
 

8 [Earnestly] remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy (withdrawn from common employment and dedicated to God).....Exodus 20    brackets parenthesis theirs'  LHC
 

The only commandment requested to remember and the only one most of Christianity has forgotten. Also the only commandment identifying Who He is and why He deserves our loyalty.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[brotherly love]

That is one of the strange ironies, or logical disconnects in this whole matter.  These areas are asserting their voting strength to push back against NAD running the Church and telling them what to do.  Not learning from that domination by NAD, they turn around and repeat the very same mistake by essentially asserting that they are in charge and and free to do their own thing according to their own ways, but insisting that NAD and the other pro-WO Divisions cannot do likewise and attempting to force their point of view on those Divisions in favor of women in ministry.  Backlash against colonialism by creating a new form of it.

Maybe it is not colonialism, but that the west has in a whole turned away from God and is letting secular culture and not the bible dictate changes.

Edited August 3, 2015 by brotherly love

[Tom Wetmore]

And maybe pigs do fly...  

I'm sorry,  but the evidence strongly points far more strongly that those that voted did so with very little understanding of what the vote was really about, with very little advance information or even minimal study on the underlying issues about WO or women in ministry.  The evidence most strongly indicates that their vote against it was driven by culture and had little if anything remotely Biblical.  It has been reported that delegates from the some of the divisions most strongly opposed had no advance information on the issue given to them by their leadership.  There was very strong pressure put on them to watch how their leader voted and follow his lead. 

Don't be fooled by the substantial volume of information regarding WO, for and against, we have here in NAD, into thinking that it is in any way a reflection of what was being circulated or taught or studied in areas that are firmly opposed.  The truth is that the leadership in many areas did virtually nothing to prepare their people to address the issue.  No information.  None.  Nada. 

[lazarus]

 These areas are asserting their voting strength to push back against NAD running the Church and telling them what to do.  Not learning from that domination by NAD, they turn around and repeat the very same mistake by essentially asserting that they are in charge and and free to do their own thing according to their own ways, but insisting that NAD and the other pro-WO Divisions cannot do likewise and attempting to force their point of view on those Divisions in favor of women in ministry.  Backlash against colonialism by creating a new form of it.

One major vote does not undo decades of control. One vote does not negate the fact that power and influence still overwhelmingly reside in North America. The NAD will still do what it needs to do despite this vote. Tom, I think we agree on the governance issue but to expect the global south to play nice is expecting too much.  To suggest that what we are seeing a new form of colonialism is taking it too far. Y'all are still holding the cards!!!

[lazarus]

 The evidence most strongly indicates that their vote against it was driven by culture and had little if anything remotely Biblical.

I would argue the same for those who voted YES. There has been no great Biblical revelation in favor of WO but in my lifetime I have seen a greater willingness to accept female pastors, which is cultural. That has been the driver in the global north and I say that as someone who is fully supportive of women in ministry.

I think its a mistake to see those who voted against WO as ignorant sheep. Of course the vote was cultural and I'm sure there was arm twisting and some ignorance but there are many, many, smart, educated  and knowledgeable no voters. Progressives got a shalaking at San Antonio and Paulsen's speech was a great example of why? Too little too late, insensitive, and rather naive. The current alliance with conservatives in the north and conservatives in the south is determined, resourceful, and creative (ish). They are going to play hardball!

[Kevin H]

I would argue the same for those who voted YES. There has been no great Biblical revelation in favor of WO but in my lifetime I have seen a greater willingness to accept female pastors, which is cultural. That has been the driver in the global north and I say that as someone who is fully supportive of women in ministry.

I think its a mistake to see those who voted against WO as ignorant sheep. Of course the vote was cultural and I'm sure there was arm twisting and some ignorance but there are many, many, smart, educated  and knowledgeable no voters. Progressives got a shalaking at San Antonio and Paulsen's speech was a great example of why? Too little too late, insensitive, and rather naive. The current alliance with conservatives in the north and conservatives in the south is determined, resourceful, and creative (ish). They are going to play hardball!

I am sorry Lazarus however there have been great Biblical revelations in favor of WO. Sadly, we have not seriously looked at it. We have sadly become quite superficial in our study of the scriptures. We see what other theologians say about the texts and how it was understood through out history. We have not been faithful of taking advantage of studying the texts in their own history and culture. Dr. Jim Fleming has a 5 sermon series full of great Biblical revelations in favor of WO. While you can hire him for the lectures he is not currently selling recordings of the lectures. However he does sell the notebook for the lecture series: http://search.aol.com/aol/search?enabled_terms=&s_it=comsearch&q=Attitudes+towards+women+in+the+Bible%2C+Biblical+Resources+LLC&s_chn=prt_main5 Also a number of our theologians have made similar discoveries but it is not that easy to explain. But Flemings work is quite clear. I honestly believe that if they could sit and talk about these things that Fleming could even change the mind of Doug Batchelor.

[lazarus]

I am sorry Lazarus however there have been great Biblical revelations in favor of WO.

You could be right. I have not looked at the material you referenced. My guess is that neither have many of our decision makers across the Division and therefore I still say the position held by most in the northern countries is culturally driven.

We have sadly become quite superficial in our study of the scriptures. We see what other theologians say about the texts and how it was understood through out history. We have not been faithful of taking advantage of studying the texts in their own history and culture.

One take away from the session that I haven't really talked to many people about is that for the first time in my life as an SDA I feel that my church is not able to rightly handle the Word. Perhaps naively I've thought that we generally can come to solid Biblical positions but some of the arguments deployed against WO have been alarmingly weak. I guess it is time for those rose-tints to come off. As I type I'm remembering 1880 so this is not new, alas.

I honestly believe that if they could sit and talk about these things that Fleming could even change the mind of Doug Batchelor.

Brother, you are usually on point but you are getting hyperbolic now.

[brotherly love]

And maybe pigs do fly...  

I'm sorry,  but the evidence strongly points far more strongly that those that voted did so with very little understanding of what the vote was really about, with very little advance information or even minimal study on the underlying issues about WO or women in ministry.  The evidence most strongly indicates that their vote against it was driven by culture and had little if anything remotely Biblical.  It has been reported that delegates from the some of the divisions most strongly opposed had no advance information on the issue given to them by their leadership.  There was very strong pressure put on them to watch how their leader voted and follow his lead. 

Don't be fooled by the substantial volume of information regarding WO, for and against, we have here in NAD, into thinking that it is in any way a reflection of what was being circulated or taught or studied in areas that are firmly opposed.  The truth is that the leadership in many areas did virtually nothing to prepare their people to address the issue.  No information.  None.  Nada. 

Then why has the interpretation changed in the west as our culture has drifted farther away from God and the Bible?

[Johann]

Excellent, LHC. We have made a major issue of this - based on what? Where in the Bible does it say that it is Sunday keeping that is the mark of the beast? You quote Roman Catholic sources for a verification, and our church has seen this as a fulfillment of prophecy for more than a hundred years, and I agree withis interpretation. Now I just wonder if the "or" and "or" might indicate that we should be watching further fulfillments of prophecy? It was the Roman Catholic church which provided us with this clue. Has that church given us any other distinguishiing marks in our days? I'd like to suggest two:

1. In a famous book,  The Kees of His Kingdom,  (if I remember the the title. My copy is in storage) a Jesuit professor indicates the main problem the pope has with churches like the SDA is that we give each individual the freedom of choice if the person will be saved or not. Do you agree that this lack of freedom could also be a distiguishing mark?

2. When the great discussion was in England about female priests and bishops   the Roman Catholic church  invited any member of the church of  England into fellowship with the Roman church if they were against the ordinaation of women. Do you see this as another mark?

Just wondering. . .

Edited August 4, 2015 by Johann

[Tom Wetmore]

Then why has the interpretation changed in the west as our culture has drifted farther away from God and the Bible?

Would you say the same for the Church in China where more than half of the pastors are women and they came to the decision to ordain women uninfluenced by Western cultural values?  Are you say that given the number of female pastors that is many times the number in the rest of the world is the result of them having drifted  the farthest away from God and the Bible?

But more to your point that the interpretation has changed.  Has it really? If so, which direction?  

I think you mean that the move toward inclusion of women in ministry is the drift of the change.  Am I correct?  If so, how do you account for the fact that there was a far greater proportion of women in ministry and leadership within the Adventist Church during its first 50 years, the later part of the 19th Century which was a great time of spiritual revival that birthed the Adventist Church, than there is now?  How do you account for the fact that the earliest publications of the Church spoke favorable toward women in ministry, including using many of the very same Biblical interpretation as being used now?  Some of those very interpretations were specifically used in defense of EGW's right to stand in the pulpit to preach even though she was a woman.  She was not silent in Church.  She she carried substantial authority over the male leaders of the Church and other men of the Church.  She was recognized by the General Conference as an ordained minister of the Church. 

I would agree with you if you actually meant that the change has gone the other way to a more fundamentalist female exclusionary point of view for the Church as a whole.  That is quite self evident by what we have witnessed. 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Johann:

The Keys of the Kingdom is a 1944 movie about a Roman Catholic priest, starring Gregory Peck.

The Keys to the Kingdom is a series of books written by Garth Nix around 2000.

The Keys to the Kingdom is one of the 17 books written by the Roman Catholic Priest, Malachi B. Martin,after 1964.  While his books were published as novels, they are often thought to contain much fact.  Personally, I like his 1978 book The Final Conclave..   Yes, he was a Jesuit priest and a close confident of the then Pope.  As a result, when he requested that the Pope  release him from his Jesuit vows, that was accomplished.   But, he remained a RC priest.   I am uncertain as to whether or not he remained a cleric, if so, he was mainly a cleric who authored books and did not have a congregation, as I understand it.

 

[brotherly love]

Would you say the same for the Church in China where more than half of the pastors are women and they came to the decision to ordain women uninfluenced by Western cultural values?  Are you say that given the number of female pastors that is many times the number in the rest of the world is the result of them having drifted  the farthest away from God and the Bible?

But more to your point that the interpretation has changed.  Has it really? If so, which direction?  

I think you mean that the move toward inclusion of women in ministry is the drift of the change.  Am I correct?  If so, how do you account for the fact that there was a far greater proportion of women in ministry and leadership within the Adventist Church during its first 50 years, the later part of the 19th Century which was a great time of spiritual revival that birthed the Adventist Church, than there is now?  How do you account for the fact that the earliest publications of the Church spoke favorable toward women in ministry, including using many of the very same Biblical interpretation as being used now?  Some of those very interpretations were specifically used in defense of EGW's right to stand in the pulpit to preach even though she was a woman.  She was not silent in Church.  She she carried substantial authority over the male leaders of the Church and other men of the Church.  She was recognized by the General Conference as an ordained minister of the Church. 

I would agree with you if you actually meant that the change has gone the other way to a more fundamentalist female exclusionary point of view for the Church as a whole.  That is quite self evident by what we have witnessed. 

 

Ya, i would also claim the same thing for China. Communism promotes and is the author of secular feminism, just like the old USSR and Cuba. Russia since shedding communism now turned its back on secular feminism. We mock them on moral issues.

 

 

 

 

[Tom Wetmore]

You might claim that, but is it really true to the deeply rooted Chinese culture that transcends and supersedes the governments apparent socialistic orientation?  (Recognize it is communist, which is different from socialism...  If it truly is a socialist country, why has capitalism taken off with such intensity without any apparent resistance?)  Doe the reality of of women really match in practice the rhetoric platitudes of equality of men and women touted by the government?  I think the reality is different than what might be superficially observed by an outsider.  

[brotherly love]

You might claim that, but is it really true to the deeply rooted Chinese culture that transcends and supersedes the governments apparent socialistic orientation?  (Recognize it is communist, which is different from socialism...  If it truly is a socialist country, why has capitalism taken off with such intensity without any apparent resistance?)  Doe the reality of of women really match in practice the rhetoric platitudes of equality of men and women touted by the government?  I think the reality is different than what might be superficially observed by an outsider.  

It is communist, and the communist party owns the banks, and every inch of land. GM can go into china and own a building, but the communist party dictates where, the land, who gets money and holds all the rules.

Communism, secular humanism and moral relativity are human in origin, and they exploit people