MASS MAILING OF GREAT CONTROVERSY

[Robert]

These quotes are from documents over 120 years old.  Hardly cutting edge.  I could quote some stuff by EGW that says some of the saints living in her time would be alive to witness the 2nd Coming.  That statement holds as much water as the pope statements above.

Yes, they are old, but has Rome changed her position, doctrinally? Is the Pope not infallible now?  Is the Pope still addressed as "Holy Father", "His Holiness", names that are for God alone and not fallible, sinful men?

Edited September 25, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Im pretty sure that Mat 23 was not referring to Catholics, and there are many "good" Protestants and Adventists who basically make the same claims that you say the Pope does. It needs to be noted here with claims like yours that Jesus called Judas "friend" when Judas came with a mob to kill Him.

Actually, Matt 23 was Christ rebuking the Pharisees...but, if here today, He would rebuke the Pope.  And yes, some SDA too....

Edited September 25, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

His Holiness:  I have a problem with addressing any human with that term.  However, in fairness, we need to be accurate in attributing a meaning to that term to the Catholic Church.

....

2) In Catholic doctrine, that term simply indicates that the Pope is dedicated or "set apart" in a special  way for spiritual leadership.  This thinking stems from the Biblical practice of calling people "saints." 

 

We are "saints" in Christ, not in reality (this doesn't deny we are growing).  Personally I never refer to myself as a saint.

Now what you state in # 2 maybe what the Catholics say, but it's a contradiction.  Really, how can "His Holiness" = "set apart"?  

Now look at that phrase.  Whose holiness?  Answer: "His"!  That pronoun refers to the Pope's holiness.  Seems pretty clear.

[Robert]

The SDA president to "apologize" to his "Holiness Pope Francis"?  "Holiness?"  Has the papacy renounced its claim to be God on earth?  Infallibility?  The worship of Mary and saints?   Indulgences?  Repented in sackcloth and ashes for the murder 

of millions of believers?  Accepted SOLA SCRIPTURA, SOLA FIDE,, SOLA GRATIA?  

I am appalled, shocked to see a professed SDA proposing this.  But then, I should not really be surprised that an SDA would even "wonder after the beast".  No, the papacy does not have to worry, all the PROTESTants have disappeared,

and sad to say, even a number of SDAs.  .  They have all stretched out their hand "over the abyss to clasp hands with Roman power" save the remnant.   

Bingo!

[JoeMo]

Yes, they are old, but has Rome changed her position, doctrinally? Is the Pope not infallible now?  Is the Pope still addressed as "Holy Father", "His Holiness", names that are for God alone and not fallible, sinful men?

Nope; Rome has not changed it's doctrine of infallibility no more than the SDA church has changed it'd stance on the immutable truth of everything EGW ever wrote.

The Pope was never infallible; regardless of the doctrine of the RCC.

Yes, the Pope is still addressed as you say, but the "Father" part is a familial term, not a divine attribute, and the "Holy" part means that the Pope is "set apart" from other men; but I believe this was explained in an earlier post by Greg Matthews (who is a whole lot smarter and well-versed than either of us).

Many of the vessels and furnishings in the temple were declared to be "holy".  That doesn't mean that they were desgnated as divine.  That would make them idols.

[Robert]

And who says it's not the time?  If not now, when?  If not by Adventists, who?  

I refer you to the 3 Angels' messages of Rev 14 & 18.  

 

The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity she will have to do in a terrible crisis under most discouraging, forbidding circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren and to excite indignation against them. This day is just before us. 

[Robert]

Yes, the Pope is still addressed as you say, but the "Father" part is a familial term, not a divine attribute, and the "Holy" part means that the Pope is "set apart" from other men; but I believe this was explained in an earlier post by Greg Matthews (who is a whole lot smarter and well-versed than either of us).

As I said, how can "His Holiness" = "set apart"?  

Now look at that phrase.  Whose holiness?  Answer: "His"!  That pronoun refers to the Pope's holiness.  Seems pretty clear. 

Here's what Christ said to his disciples and the Jewish crowds:

"don’t address anyone here on earth as ‘Father,’ for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father." Matt 23:9

Christ isn't saying don't call your dad, father.  He is saying don't call your the scribes and pharisees (spiritual leaders) father.  

Holy father is even worse.

Why?

He (the Pope) isn't holy.  In fact it's blasphemy because only God is Holy....

Edited September 25, 2015 by Robert

[Unchained]

I think we've often misunderstood the purpose of this book. In Ellen White's own words:

“It is not so much the object of this book to present new truths concerning the struggles of former times, as to bring out facts and principles which have a bearing on coming events. Yet viewed as a part of the controversy between the forces of light and darkness, all these records of the past are seen to have a new significance; and through them a light is cast upon the future, illumining the pathway of those who, like the reformers of past ages, will be called, even at the peril of all earthly good, to witness “for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.” {GC xii.1}

This book is first and foremost about spiritual principles. Here she states that the historical section is meant to be understood as an illustration of the final conflict. I realize that the following might be an unpopular opinion, but I think her theological beliefs about the eschatological role of the papacy should be understood in the same way, as an illustration of what will actually happen.

In other words, bigotry and religious persecution can come under many different forms and guises.  I think it's near-sighted to assume that the spirit of the Antichrist is something that by definition originates in the Vatican. When the principles behind the medieval papacy eventually are resurrected it can be manifested in a form that would surprise us Adventists. Remember that the devil has prepared an end-time deception that would, if possible, deceive the very elect. Don't you think the devil has read the “Great Controversy”?

[Kevin H]

Powerful post Unchained!!! Mrs. White is looking at the past and principles that will come around again, and being aware of what happened and what could have happened will help us to recognize it when it comes around again.

But sadly Satan has tidied up religion. He has given us traditions that has it all figured out. He has God set in cement. He has blinded us to the fact that the Lord could have come hense this and that the Bible and Mrs. White tells us what could have happened. From seeing what could have happened we can see the same principles when it comes around again.

But sadly since this is not tidy enough, we don't want to get into the nit and gritty of Bible study. While making the Pope the Whole beast we are thus open to accepting other aspects of the beast. While looking for a return to the 5th head many of us will embrace the 7th head. While waiting for the strict Sunday Laws, there will be something with Sunday but does not peter out as we expect so we move on and embrace the larger issues of the mark of the beast (Mrs. White says that Sunday laws are a test for the Christian world and implies that the issue is larger than Sunday keeping and that there will be other manifestations to other parts of the world.) We know it all and warnings that we don't know it all and need to study deeper are excused as liberal unbelief and we embrace and put faith in our traditions. And as the Bible proves to not fit the standard of the Fundamentalist, Christians will face the same issues we faced with Walter Rea. Only why trust in this dry untrustworthy book when we have "Jesus" "Paul" and "Mrs. White" and" your loving Grandma" and other dear ones back from the dead and willing to share with us what is correct.

[Gerr]

    9 But if I say I’ll never mention the LORD 
      or speak in his name, 
    his word burns in my heart like a fire. 
      It’s like a fire in my bones! 
    I am worn out trying to hold it in! 
      I can’t do it! 

Tyndale House Publishers. (2013). Holy Bible: New Living Translation (Je 20:9). Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale House Publishers.

Thank you, Lord, for those who have that fire in their hearts and in their bones!

Edited September 26, 2015 by Gerry Cabalo
modify

[Unchained]

"A little "controversy" is arriving in hundreds of thousands of mailboxes across Chicago – and it has nothing to do with local politics or the national election.

Although "The Great Controversy," a book authored in the 1800s by E.G. White, a founder of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, does touch on themes of lying, stealing and cheating.

More than 600,000 copies have been mailed out – unsolicited – across Chicago and residents started getting them in the past week..."

Read more: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-religious-book-mailed-chicago-met-0322-20160323-story.html

[JoeMo]

All I can say is "wow".  I don't know if this is a very positive or efficient way for SDA's (or its offshoots) to spread the gospel.

[phkrause]

I wonder how it worked out in Philadelphia?? They did that there, did they not??

[Kevin H]

If we were to start a mass mailing I would have preferred either the Desire of Ages, or just the 3 chapters: The Origin of Evil, Why was sin permitted" and It is Finished.  These chapters have the information people should be introduced to about Mrs. White's thought. Sadly too many of us ignore those central messages and are focused on the side messages of the Pope and Sunday.

[Jessie-Jess]

1.) Nobody is forced to accept nor to read The GC just because it shows up in their mailbox. They can give it to someone else, or even throw it o away if they want. he people who mail them are not there to watch and see if they read them.

2.) The GC is a book, which one has to open and deliberately read to see the contents in question. If the person doesn't want to keep reading, the person who sent the book is not there to force the person to keep reading.

3.) The GC contains the truth. The truth is not always pleasant, and is likely to be rejects and/or to receive backlash by many, but history so often repeats itself and will in this case. The truth can save the few who accept it and come to Christ.

4.) There are many who may not have the opportunity to receive the truth, at the very least because they do not know where to find it, if everyone waits to have one on one interaction with people and to have them ask for it. How can one ask for something he/she doesn't know exists?

5.) While some may be upset to receive a GC, there are also others who will be thankful to receive it.

6.) Not sending the GC actually violate's the potential reader's freedom of choice more than sending one, because the person who is able to, but who does not send it is making the choice for the person, so are those who restrict/force others not send the book. If the person receives the book, he/she has the freedom to choose what to do with it. Those of you who tell us we shouldn't send the books are working against the potential reader's freedom of choice.

7.) News agencies can tend to e biased and against our freedoms and so can opinions, even within the church, but we are called by Christ to preach the Gospel to all the world. God's way leads to true freedom.

[Gregory Matthews]

The Biblical teaching is that one must be fed spiritual milk prior to being fed meat.

In  human life, to feed a young baby solid food is clearly going to lead to problems, potentially both then and in future life.

Also in human life one should normally be proficient in algebra prior to attempting to learn calculus. 

The same is true in our spiritual life.  To confront a person with spiritual truth before they are at a spiritual level that allows them to receive it can do spiritual damage. 

Both postage and printing is not free.  To do a mass mailing of a book that probably most will simply throw away is to waste resources that could be better used to bring people to Christ.  Tell me, of what spiritual value is it for one to believe in the actual state of the dead, believe that the Catholic church should not call priests Holy Father and to believe that the 7th day is the Sabbath, if that person who so believes is not converted to Christ.

While there may be exceptions, THE GREAT CONTROVERSEY  is probably not the best tool to bring people to Christ.

The overall human responsibility to bring people to Christ in a geographic area rests with congregations and their members and the administrative divisions of the organized church that governs that geographic area.  All to often those who do mass mailing of THE GREAT CONTROVERSEY do not coordinate with those who are responsible.  They seek to promote their agenda--mail GC.  They fail to ask what is most needed.  They are not around to provide follow-up to any interests who may be developed.  They may need follow-up responses to people who are not prepared to provide such.

When people fail to coordinate more harm may be done than actual good.

 

 

 

[Outta Here]

I've seen a lot of copies of the Great Controversy (and other EGW books) in the book bins at the Goodwill Outlet. People can buy them for next to nothing (29 cents per pound), but they very rarely do.

Just think of all the people you are violating by not sending them a link to the Great Controversy via e-mail and Facebook. Just send them this link today: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc.asp It's fast, it's free. It'll only take a minute to click "send" and then all your family, friends, acquaintances and work colleagues can have the freedom to choose.

[Kevin H]

I love the book Great Controversy. However she wrote it to try to present truth in her culture and she had some worries about how she was treating the Papacy and the difficulty of maintaining the balance between the historical criticisms we have of the Papacy and to not sound anti-Catholic. I have a sneaking suspicion that those who are doing massive mailings of the Great Controversy are not as much interested in Mrs. White's message that she brought too the book as wanting to re-create the culture where it was written.

They are more focused on the Pope and expecting us to return to the 5th head, instead of the actual issues of the Great Controversy; the 3 deceptions of Satan, the 3 aspects of the trinity, liberty of conscience threatened; The papacy is just an illustration of one of the two ways Satan tries  to trip us up: one way is external control psychology, where others try to force their beliefs upon us, and spiritualism where there is no right or wrong except for what's right or wrong in your experience. Then finally how does God destroy the wicked. People need to hear that message. People who are mailing out the Great Controversy need to hear that message as well. That is why I keep saying that probably a good introduction to Mrs. White would be if we could put together a booklet with "Why was sin Permitted" and "The Origin of Evil" (These two chapters cover the same information, one early in Mrs. White's ministry and has a rawness that is fresh and alive. The other written later and is more refined. The early raw work and the later refined work both have strengths and weaknesses that complement each other) and "It is Finished" probably the best thing that ever came from Mrs. White's pen.

If we were going to mass mail one of her completed books, why not the Desire of Ages? Is it because they would rather put down the Pope then to bow to the beauty of Jesus?

[Gregory Matthews]

The message that we present to others depends, in part, on the view we have of the God that we present.

I would reject the God that some present, if I thought that it was an accurate picture of God.

 

[Aliensanctuary]

A simple presentation of the Great Controversy/Good News theme in magazine format might go a lot farther than 600-page books to connect with people. Maybe there are magazines like that already being published and distributed, I don't know. If the authors keep the language simple and add some contemporary artwork, that should be much more appealing to most people who aren't motivated to sit down long enough to read through thick books.

Most people don't really care about all of the details of events covered in GC, therefore, it's not a compelling-enough read to finish the book. The grand sweep of the history of Christianity should be covered in just a few magazine pages. 

Web links to the magazine should hit another target audience. 

Anyway, events of the past few years may have made EGW's predictions concerning the papacy obsolete. We'll have to just wait and see. 

Same story for the life and teachings of Christ. Mass mailings should be short and simple, but well-done, and denomination-free.

 

[Unchained]

Personally I love GC and I'm a bookworm, but I must admit that I'm undecided about all of this.  Here is an article that is kind of relevant... It's about children and reading, but similar trends are seen in relation to adults.

Sharp decline in children reading for pleasure, survey finds
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/09/decline-children-reading-pleasure-survey

We ask ourselves if people will read the Great Controversy, but a more appropriate question should perhaps be if people will read any book at all, even a book they get for free?

A more appropriate way of reaching people with Ellen White's writings could perhaps be to give it away to people who are willing to receive it. There is a difference between giving books to people who never requested it, and to give books to someone agreeing to have a look at it.

 

[Unchained]

Another thing to keep in mind is that mass mailings are impersonal.

There is a difference between books you get from someone you’ve met, and the stuff you get in your mailbox. Most of us aren’t afraid of throwing stuff away that we’ve never asked for, but we rarely will throw away a book we get from Aunt Selma. She might after all come on an unannounced visit...

Sometimes I get pocket books in my mail, (cheap pulp fiction) and I promptly throw that stuff away. I never asked for it, and I’m not interested in that stuff. There is a similar danger when it comes to mass mailing the GC.

On the other hand, in some countries it is really difficult to get hold of adventist literature, and people generally can’t afford books. So why not fund giveaways in African nations? Isn’t it better to give books to people who actually would love to read them, instead of mailing out books to people who throw them into the trash?

[phkrause]

We get all kinds of garbage in the mail, that really is junk! I for one would welcome The Great Controversy. I can remember growing up and wanting nothing to do with her books, but when I finally got around to reading GC, I must've been around 30, I couldn't put it down. Other than the Bible, its the best book I've ever read!!

[JoeMo]

In today's culture, a lot of people crave personal interaction.  I tried for years to bring people to church by passing out tracts and inviting people to SDA evangelistic series.  It never worked.  A couple years ago, God "made" me start a Bible Study at work.  What started out hesitantly has evolved into a small group - much closer than an office Bible study.  We pray together, study together, and cry/laugh together.  We are all so blessed!  What is so cool is that I don't even need to preach Adventism.  They discover the things we believe through our study and conversation!  So far, God has brought us a JW (now a former JW) and a very open-minded Catholic!  I'm so blessed that God can use a dirtbag like me!  This way is much more effective (at least in personal evangelism) than mass mailing.

[LifeHiscost]

26 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

 This way is much more effective (at least in personal evangelism) than mass mailing.

Is there beneficial room for both?

God is Love!~Jesus saves!