MASS MAILING OF GREAT CONTROVERSY

[Bravus]

Always amazes me, though, that it is necessary to go to obscure journals from the distant past to support these claims.

If they were the case, they'd be pronounced directly by the Vatican, and much more recently. Overstatements by Americans publishing in the 19th century are very weak evidence.

[Robert]

On 4/18/2016 at 11:39 PM, David Geelan said:

Always amazes me, though, that it is necessary to go to obscure journals from the distant past to support these claims.

If they were the case, they'd be pronounced directly by the Vatican, and much more recently. Overstatements by Americans publishing in the 19th century are very weak evidence.

Then the Vatican should renounce these former statements.  And the Pope, out of humbleness, should lambaste anyone who calls him Holy Father for he is neither holy nor our spiritual father. 

Let him renounce that he is Christ's Vicar for Christ has no Vicar.  Let him renounce his blasphemous claims to infallibility when dealing with faith and morals.  

 

[Robert]

Let's define what we see.  After all, a picture paints a thousand words.

[Robert]

21 minutes ago, Robert said:

Let's define what we see.  After all, a picture paints a thousand words.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

553. Jesus entrusted a specific authority to Peter: 'I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven' [Matt 16:19]. The 'power of the keys' designates authority to govern the house of God, which is the Church. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, confirmed this mandate after his Resurrection: 'Feed my sheep' [John 21:15-17; cf. 10:11]. The power to 'bind and loose' connotes the authority to absolve sins, to pronounce doctrinal judgments, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church. Jesus entrusted this authority to the Church through the ministry of the apostles [cf. Matt 18:18] and in particular through the ministry of Peter, the only one to whom he specifically entrusted the keys of the kingdom.

882. The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful." "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."

Ref: http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/about.htm

[Robert]

 

Quote

 

In 1870, along with his mentor Döllinger, Acton opposed the moves to promulgate the doctrine of papal infallibility in the First Vatican Council, travelling to Rome to lobby against it, ultimately unsuccessfully. Unlike Döllinger,  Acton did not become an Old Catholic, and continued attending Mass regularly; he received the last rites on his deathbed. The Catholic Church did not try to force his hand. It was in this context that, in a letter he wrote to scholar and ecclesiastic Mandell Creighton, dated April 1887, Acton made his most famous pronouncement:

But if we might discuss this point until we found that we nearly agreed, and if we do agree thoroughly about the impropriety of Carlylese denunciations and Pharisaism in history, I cannot accept your canon that we are to judge Pope and King unlike other men, with a favourable presumption that they did no wrong. If there is any presumption it is the other way, against the holders of power, increasing as the power increases. Historic responsibility has to make up for the want of legal responsibility. Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority, still more when you superadd the tendency or the certainty of corruption by authority. There is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it. That is the point at which the negation of Catholicism and the negation of Liberalism meet and keep high festival, and the end learns to justify the means. You would hang a man of no position like Ravaillac; but if what one hears is true, then Elizabeth asked the gaoler to murder Mary, and William III. ordered his Scots minister to extirpate a clan. Here are the greatest names coupled with the greatest crimes; you would spare those criminals, for some mysterious reason. I would hang them higher than Haman, for reasons of quite obvious justice, still more, still higher for the sake of historical science. [Wikipedia]

 

Ultimately any man, given absolute power, will become corrupt beyond comprehension.  This power leads to evils such as this:

 

[hch]

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2015 at 2:54 PM, Jeannieb43 said:

According to Adventist Today online, there has been a mass mailing of the book GREAT CONTROVERSY by Ellen White to a large segment of the population in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.   Also according to this report, several newspaper articles in Philadelphia have come out against this as being illogical or wrong.

 

I guess those who live in Philadelphia are bothered by the account of persecution, torture, etc., for religious reasons found in this book.

 

I wonder if this might not be doing more harm than good to our Adventist ministry in Philadelphia.  

 

Perhaps it would have been better to use those books in one-on-one contacts, after an interested person asks for it.

Ever hear about mass mailings of the Desire of Ages? Have heard about mass mailing of Steps to Christ!

Religion

RELIGION	Philadelphia, Pennsylvania	United States
Percent Religious	48.77%	48.78%
Catholic	25.55%	19.43%
LDS	0.45%	2.03%
Baptist	8.64%	9.30%

Looks like Catholics are a majority sect in Philly

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Robert said:

 

Ultimately any man, given absolute power, will become corrupt beyond comprehension.  This power leads to evils such as this:

 

Remember David Koresh?  How about Jim Jones?  Didn't they all have the "god syndrome"?  And how does the RCC differ?  Aren't they following a man who claims to be Christ's Vicar?

[Robert]

Deleted/Rob

 

[Robert]

 

[Robert]

 

[Robert]

I hope you are taking the time to watch the above video, David.  This comes from a non-Adventist.  

Robert

[Gerr]

If our members have been doing the "one on one" distribution of the book, maybe there would have been no need for the mass mailing.

[Kevin H]

I am not so much concerned about the mass mailing or the Great Controversy as such. I go house to house leaving our church's news letters. I'd be more comfortable with things such mass mailing "Steps to Christ" or "Desire of Ages" or better yet to bring the 3 chapters "Why was sin permitted" "The Origin of Evil" and "It is Finished" under one cover and mail out. What concerns me is that in a world with problems such as child abuse, dependence upon chemicals etc. that there are people who just want to put down other's beliefs and are attracted to the Great Controversy not for the deeper message that Mrs. White was trying to bring out and her concern of trying to balance between being fair to the issues yet be fair to Catholics and other Christians and worried that she went too hard on others. That they picked Great Controversy not for the words of healing in it's pages, but how they could use that book as a club to attack others. And that this is a missionary outreach that encourages the spirit of pride and Satan within us, and leads to prejudice against the mission that God has raised us up for.  

[Gregory Matthews]

My concern is that in our views of the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) we often misrepresent their official doctrinal position.  We may present what some members believe.  But, I would not want to be held accountable for what some of our members believe who actually differ from our actual teaching.

Case in point:

Take the  term "Holy Father" which is applied to the Pope.  We often present that as teaching that the Pope is sinless.  That may be the belief of some members.  But, it is clearly not the official teaching of  the RCC, which actually teaches that the Pope is a human who may sin and needs to go to confession as does every member.  [NOTE:  In fact, the Pope has an official Confessor to hears the Pope's confessions.]  The actual teaching of the RCC as to the term "Holy Father" is that   is represents that the Pope has committed himself to total dedication to God, even though   he may fail at times and sin.

 

[Robert]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The actual teaching of the RCC as to the term "Holy Father" is that   is represents that the Pope has committed himself to total dedication to God, even though   he may fail at times and sin.

Full Question

According to the Bible, only God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit merit the designation "holy." Yet on innumerable occasions Catholics refer to the pope as the "Holy Father." Kindly provide a rational explanation for this blasphemy.

Answer

Only God is holy by his very essence; however, by a person, place, or thing’s association with God, it too can be called holy. To be called holy is to express the idea of consecration, that someone or something belongs to God. That is why the Bible can call many persons, places, and things holy.

In Genesis 28:16, the place God appears is "holy." In Exodus 19:6, God tells the Israelites through Moses, "and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." God’s dwelling place in the Tabernacle is "holy" (Ex 28:43), as is the city of Jerusalem (Is 48:2). Even a goat, the victim of sacrifice to God, is called "holy" in Leviticus 10:17.

After Christ’s death and resurrection the Christians called themselves and each other "holy ones" or "saints," called by God to be his (Rom 1:7). In 1 Peter 1:16 we read, "it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.’"

Since we are his holy people, and his people are the Church, it is fitting that the head of his holy people be called Holy Father—not because of his own merit, but because Christ died for him and for the Church that he leads on earth.

Ref: http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/why-do-catholics-call-the-pope-the-holy-father-if-the-bible-says-only-persons-of-the-

[Robert]

Quote

"In Exodus 19:6, God tells the Israelites through Moses, "and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."

Context:  Ex 19:6...if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."

To what covenant is Christ referring?

If the new covenant we are holy "in Christ Jesus" alone.  See 1 Cor 1:30,31; Col 1:21,22  

This holiness refers to our new creation currently residing "in Christ" in the heavenly places.  See Eph 1:4-6 & 2 Cor 5:17

If Moses is referring to the old covenant then "holy" is meaningless.  Why? "They did not keep in My covenant".  See Heb 8:9

So the adjective "holy" refers to our position "in Christ", i.e., I have a new creation in the heavenly places "in Christ".  That glorified, holy life is only mine by faith.  Of myself I am a sinner.  Therefore I cannot refer to myself as holy.  Neither can the Pope, legitimately. 

[Robert]

Quote

In 1 Peter 1:16 we read, "it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.’"

Context 

13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

This is a call to sanctification.  Sanctification is a process over time.  It is the fruit of resting in the finished work of Christ. So the call is to aim towards holiness, but yet both the Bible and inspiration tells us that perfection (holiness) is impossible this side of eternity:

"If we say that we have no sin (i.e., we are holy and perfect), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23

“There is none righteous, no, not one" Rom 3:10

"None of the apostles and prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, but have trusted wholly in the righteousness of Christ.

So will it be with all who behold Christ. The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14.

Let the recording angels write the history of the holy struggles and conflicts of the people of God; let them record their prayers and tears; but let not God be dishonored by the declaration from human lips, "I am sinless; I am holy." Sanctified lips will never give utterance to such presumptuous words. [AA 561,562]

[Robert]

Quote

Since we are his holy people, and his people are the Church, it is fitting that the head of his holy people be called Holy Father—not because of his own merit, but because Christ died for him and for the Church that he leads on earth.

Again, we are "holy" only "in Christ" and not of ourselves as children of Adam.

According to this Catholic apologist "it is fitting that the head of his holy people be called Holy Father".

 Well, that's a fallacy because the Pope is not the head of the church - Christ is the head.  Furthermore Christ warned the Scribes and Pharisees not to call their spiritual leaders "Father" because they had only One spiritual Father who was and is in heaven (see Matt 23:9).  

Therefore it is blasphemous to refer to a spiritual leader as "Holy Father" no matter what contortions one goes through to justify it. 

 

 

[Robert]

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ's character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy.   [THE WATCHMAN April 23, 1907]

[Robert]

Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him"

Rev 18:7 "She (Babylon) hath glorified herself"

Matt 23:5 “Everything they do is for show." 

[Robert]

"Their (the Pharisees) spirit and motives and methods were the opposite of His. While they claimed to be very jealous for the honor of the law, self-glory was the real object which they sought; and Christ would make it manifest to them that the lover of self is a transgressor of the law.

But the principles cherished by the Pharisees are such as are characteristic of humanity in all ages. The spirit of Pharisaism is the spirit of human nature; and as the Saviour showed the contrast between His own spirit and methods and those of the rabbis, His teaching is equally applicable to the people of all time.

In the days of Christ the Pharisees were continually trying to earn the favor of Heaven in order to secure the worldly honor and prosperity which they regarded as the reward of virtue. At the same time they paraded their acts of charity before the people in order to attract their attention and gain a reputation for sanctity. [MB 79]

[Robert]