Samie Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 I don't think I know the steps in your kind of music, my brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 19 minutes ago, Samie said: I don't think I know the steps in your kind of music, my brother. Expected response "There will be no admission (other than perhaps to die an atheist) that any religion contains all deceived followers. Instead there will be a philosophical escape to some analogy (life-raft style) claiming that they are all babies in the faith needing time to grow. There can be no admission that living and dying in a false religion dooms one. Thus folks from all religions can and do make it to eternal life, and deception or not is not an issue. At least Samie is consistent in saying all are in the life-raft and can make it". Something along those lines was what I expected. I have watched you dance so long, I can ask questions and give your answer and give my response and... But I am right am I not in my anticipated response given above? And if you don't feel like dancing with me, I understand too.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 When one enters into a conversation with someone on a Christian forum, one obviously brings with one a whole lot of assumptions such as... 1) One needs to know and accept Christ to be saved 2) Those who don't know Christ are not saved until they do 3) Truth is vitally important, as is basic Christian doctrine. Christians are enlightened. 4) Those in the world are deceived, both by their heart and Satan 5) Jesus only saves those who know and trust in Him. 6) Christians are supposed to live by a set of rules 7) Righteousness is not "situation ethics" but doing things by the Book. 8) All other religions are false and under the sway of Satan 9) Atheists are not saved no matter how "nice" they are since salvation is only for Christ's friends. 10) Christians expect heaven to be populated by like-minded individuals who have in this lifetime pursued righteousness, and will continue that lifestyle in Christ's kingdom. Christians do not expect to be sharing eternity with people who never heard of Christ with varying morals. 11) Christians do not expect all other religions equally to be in Christ's kingdom. I could go on and on. Chatting with Samie, as pleasant as this is, meets none of the above assumptions. From the start, Samie said all were born in the life-raft and very early on made it clear that there were no specific overcomers or rules to overcoming. And I carried on with my assumptions since this was a Christian forum, that I could persuade Samie with scriptures, that he was wrong. But Samie knows his scriptures. There is probably not one he has not read. He has been arguing his life-raft theory since the 80's with all who will listen, and has a counter to every argument since he has heard them all before. Samie is not pushing a religious belief. He is not even pushing a Christian religious belief. He is pushing a philosophy. And that philosophy in a nutshell is that all are born saved, must overcome (no definition of that), can do whatever their conscience dictates, can belong to any religion or philosophy, and will remain saved. He could no more tell you or I what we need to do to "overcome" than pigs can fly, thus this philosophy has zero usefulness. In fact it is opposed to all that Christ is calling one to do, since Christ commands specifics if one is his disciple. He also commands us to preach a specific Gospel calling folks to a relationship with Jesus. So Samie's philosophy, while heavily supported by Christian scriptures, never uses scriptures which support the usual Christian assumptions listed above. The whole philosophy could have been resolved into about 10 statements without quoting a single scripture since scripture is irrelevant to the actual flow of this argument. I will frame the whole argument without resorting to a single Biblical concept. 1) All are born heading to eternal life 2) All they need to do is not be utterly terrible 3) And they will receive eternal life 4) It does not really matter what they believe 5) It does not really matter what they do 6) since there are no absolute standards 7) and all will be judged according to their consciences in the end. 8) making knowing Jesus irrelevant. 9) making Christianity irrelevant. 10) making religion irrelevant. Some who read this thread will say, "you are being nasty and rude". No I am not. I have been civil and honest. You are not the ones who have expended the time and energy extracting the 10 simple points of Samies philosophy above. I think I fully understand the philosophy now. I don't think I have misrepresented anything. My main reason for talking religion is in the hope of learning something new from the Bible, or maybe pointing someone to "the way". This horse is dead, and this flogger rests his case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted November 19, 2015 Members Share Posted November 19, 2015 "Deception" is an interesting word. It involves the active engagement by one entity to trick another into an alternative belief. Is it deception when one has no knowledge or understanding of an alternative belief? Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 2 hours ago, Samie said: No. In a man's house, cockroaches outnumber the children 100 times over, but the house still belongs to the man, not to the roaches. I don't know if it pertains to Wingnut's question, but this was a great response! Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Regarding being rude, I don't anything would regards your last post as rude. It came across as civil. It's easy to be rude or harsh when one is angry. I don't know why a conversation like this should make one angry, but I know it happens. Seems kind of weird to me. Anyway, what I do is, in my first pass, pretty much write what's on my mind, then I go back and edit, looking for things which may be rude or hurtful, and try to cut those out, but I know I still fail, and leave things which are too harsh, but that's what I try to do. Also, one problem is when we communicate in this way, there are no verbal or body clues, so statements *always* come across one or two levels harsher than intended, so I try to take that into account, both when writing and reading. This sort of format is not easy! But it's enjoyable. I've gotten to know a little bit I feel some of the people I talk to, and pray for them, as well as myself, and that helps too. While sometime frustrating, I've found discussing with Samie very useful, as it has helped me a lot in understanding things, and being challenged in areas where I never have been, such as why do we need to believe in Christ, how do we get eternal life, things like this. It's interesting when one needs to try to prove things usually taken for granted, and surely this is a good skill to have as we talk to others not of our faith or religion. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 1 hour ago, Wingnut said: 1) All are born heading to eternal life 2) All they need to do is not be utterly terrible 3) And they will receive eternal life 4) It does not really matter what they believe 5) It does not really matter what they do 6) since there are no absolute standards 7) and all will be judged according to their consciences in the end. 8) making knowing Jesus irrelevant. 9) making Christianity irrelevant. 10) making religion irrelevant. This reminds me of something my brother talked about many years ago. My brother got into the "new age" philosophy. He meditated. He had a "spirit guide". I remember him saying that every person is on a path, and all paths eventually lead one to God (to enlightenment, etc. etc.). To think - he used to be an elder at an SDA church. He doesn't seem to want much to do with me, since I came to believe in Jesus, back in 1980. We send birthday cards. That's about it. I haven't seen him since Mom died in 2002. He retired several years ago, as Chief of Police of a large city. Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 1 hour ago, rudywoofs said: "Deception" is an interesting word. It involves the active engagement by one entity to trick another into an alternative belief. Is it deception when one has no knowledge or understanding of an alternative belief? Satan of course, is the great deceiver. He and his army, infuse LIES into the minds of susceptible individuals. If parents are deceived, they teach their children, and the children believe a falsehood. The parents did NOT intentionally deceive their children, yet the children are deceived . They are deceived BY Satan - BECAUSE they believe the LIE originally infused by Satan into the mind of a human being. The LIE may pass through many generations, yet it is the same LIE, and Satan is the deceiver. If one is deceived, honestly deceived - then the "sin" resulting from that deception will not count against the person. Sins of ignorance are "covered" by the blood of Christ, until such time as the ignorant one receives truth. Jesus said, "If you were blind you would HAVE NO SIN." Which is WHY I believe that all of those who died in ignorance, must be resurrected to HEAR the truth, and to CHOOSE or to DENY Christ as LORD. Hence my belief that "the rest of the dead" will be all of those who died in ignorance of the true God (for whatever reason). Yet - deception still has results - in this life. It leads to death - physical death, and much suffering in the process, for the deceived one, and for innocent parties. Islam would be a prime example. I read the other day, that 84 million died from WWI, if you count both sides and the collateral damage. Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 1 hour ago, pnattmbtc said: I don't know if it pertains to Wingnut's question, but this was a great response! Ahhhh, but you don't "see" the cockroaches until someone "turns on the light". Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Quote Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Quote I read the other day, that 84 million died from WWI, if you count both sides and the collateral damage. Did you mean WWI? (or WW2) Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 9 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: Did you mean WWI? (or WW2) ONE Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 "No. In a man's house, cockroaches outnumber the children 100 times over,...." Not in my house Someone once brought roaches into our home. I don't know if the place was too cold, but they all died out, and I have not seen one for years. So much for roaches being able to survive nuclear armageddon, but they cannot take my place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 17 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said: ONE I didn't know that. I've read quite a lot about WWII, but not very much on WWI. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I like the days when kings led their armies from the front. I would have loved to have seen Bush in khaki. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said: This reminds me of something my brother talked about many years ago. My brother got into the "new age" philosophy. He meditated. He had a "spirit guide". I remember him saying that every person is on a path, and all paths eventually lead one to God (to enlightenment, etc. etc.). To think - he used to be an elder at an SDA church. He doesn't seem to want much to do with me, since I came to believe in Jesus, back in 1980. We send birthday cards. That's about it. I haven't seen him since Mom died in 2002. He retired several years ago, as Chief of Police of a large city. I have seen this same pattern in people I know. And they think its the greatest thing since sliced bread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 3 hours ago, Wingnut said: 1) All are born heading to eternal life. Because of what God through Christ has done, all are born heading to eternal life. 2) All they need to do is not be utterly terrible. All they need to do is overcome evil with good. 3) And they will receive eternal life. And his name will not be blotted out from the Book of Life. 4) It does not really matter what they believe. God wrote down in his heart and mind what is best for him. 5) It does not really matter what they do. Anything against what God has written in his heart and mind is evil and must be overcome. 6) since there are no absolute standards. As he grows in the Family of God, the Father writes in him what is best suited for him. 7) and all will be judged according to their consciences in the end. All will be judged according to the standard God has set for him. 8) making knowing Jesus irrelevant. If he is like the eunuch, God will commission one of His "Philips" for him to know Jesus. 9) making Christianity irrelevant. Showing Christianity and other religions that this is the gospel Christ wants preached to the world. 10) making religion irrelevant. And when all the world hears this pure gospel, then Jesus will return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said: This reminds me of something my brother talked about many years ago. My brother got into the "new age" philosophy. He meditated. He had a "spirit guide". I remember him saying that every person is on a path, and all paths eventually lead one to God (to enlightenment, etc. etc.). To think - he used to be an elder at an SDA church. He doesn't seem to want much to do with me, since I came to believe in Jesus, back in 1980. We send birthday cards. That's about it. I haven't seen him since Mom died in 2002. He retired several years ago, as Chief of Police of a large city. I believe my philosophy is patterned after Scriptures. It portrays the Father and the Son better than how They are currently being portrayed. Yet freewill is not compromised. Man can choose to overcome evil with good, or, choose to be overcome of evil. God, the best Father, knows us better than we know ourselves, so one is sure that what He writes down into his heart and mind are for his best interest. And as he grows in this big Family of God, the Father continually writes in him guidelines that are best suited for him at specific levels of spiritual maturity. And this forms the standard by which he will be measured whether he is an overcomer. And overcomers will not be blotted out from the Book of Life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Quote 2) All they need to do is not be utterly terrible. All they need to do is overcome evil with good. For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever overcomes evil with good should not perish but have everlasting life. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Quote I believe my philosophy is patterned after Scriptures. It portrays the Father and the Son better than how They are currently being portrayed. Yet freewill is not compromised. Man can choose to overcome evil with good, or, choose to be overcome of evil. God, the best Father, knows us better than we know ourselves, so one is sure that what He writes down into his heart and mind are for his best interest. And as he grows in this big Family of God, the Father continually writes in him guidelines that are best suited for him at specific levels of spiritual maturity. And this forms the standard by which he will be measured whether he is an overcomer. And overcomers will not be blotted out from the Book of Life Your philosophy is missing Christ. The only time you mention Christ is in the context of being attached to His body by the cross. Even if that were true, it would be like 0.00001% of what Christ was about. You don't mention at all the other 99.99999%. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 Being the best Father, God has in mind what is for the best interest of His children. Yes, the deceiver is real. But I don't think our good Father in heaven will just fold His hands doing nothing while the deceiver tries his best to deceive His children. No. He will do what is in His power and rebuke the devil. That's what He did in Zech 3 for Joshua. And that exemplifies how God deals with His children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 3 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: Your philosophy is missing Christ. The only time you mention Christ is in the context of being attached to His body by the cross. Even if that were true, it would be like 0.00001% of what Christ was about. You don't mention at all the other 99.99999%. That's your perception of my philosophy. And I respect that. For me, The Father and the Son comprise 100% of my philosophy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 My philosophy: Without God's work for us through Christ, we would not have been in the Body of Christ. This is 100% the Father and the Son. Your philosophy: Unless we first believe, we cannot become part of the Body of Christ. Looks like a lot more than 50% belongs to man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 Just now, Samie said: My philosophy: Without God's work for us through Christ, we would not have been in the Body of Christ. This is 100% the Father and the Son. Your philosophy: Unless we first believe, we cannot become part of the Body of Christ. Looks like a lot more than 50% belongs to man. So how did the Ph.D. in Mathematics compute the 0.00001%? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Thanks for the chats Samie. I enjoyed them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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