Why have we allowed strange music and noise and dancing in our worship?

[Tom Wetmore]

On November 11, 2015 at 5:56:16 AM, Reddogs said:

SOP gave us the warning....""Music, when not abused, is a great blessing; but when put to a wrong use, it is a terrible curse. It excites, but does not impart that strength and courage which the Christian can find only at the throne of grace while humbly making known his wants and with strong cries and tears pleading for heavenly strength to be fortified against the powerful temptations of the evil one. Satan is leading the young captive. Oh, what can I say to lead them to break his power of infatuation! He is a skillful charmer, luring them on to perdition. --Testimonies, Vol. 1, pp. 496-497.

Music has occupied the hours which should have been devoted to prayer. Music is the idol which many professed Sabbath keeping Christians worship. Satan has no objection to music if he can make that a channel through which to gain access to the minds of the youth.

Anything will suit his purpose that will divert the mind from God and engage the time which should be devoted to His service. He works through the means which will exert the strongest influence to hold the largest numbers in a pleasing infatuation, while they are paralyzed by his power. When turned to good account, music is a blessing; but it is often made one of Satan's most attractive agencies to ensnare souls. When abused, it leads the unconsecrated to pride, vanity, and folly. When allowed to take the place of devotion and prayer, it is a terrible curse.

Young persons assemble to sing, and, although professed Christians, frequently dishonor God and their faith by their frivolous conversation and their choice of music. Sacred music is not congenial to their taste. I was directed to the plain teachings of God's word, which have been passed by unnoticed. In the judgment all these words of inspiration will condemn those who have not heeded them. --Testimonies, Vol. 1, pp. 585-586.

"Rightly employed, . . . [music] is a precious gift of God, designed to uplift the thoughts to high and noble themes, to inspire and elevate the souls.

It is one of the most effective means of impressing the heart with spiritual truth...

As a part of religious service, singing is as much an act of worship as is prayer. Indeed, many a song is prayer. --Education, pp. 167, 168.

"

Once again, every bit of what is quoted above can and does apply to  music across the broad spectrum of genres of music.  One can say these things about whatever style of music is a part of worship.   I have seen/heard and experienced music of many styles, "rightly employed", sung as a "prayer" that has mightily "impressed the heart with spiritual truth".  And I have seen/heard and experienced music of all genres going down the negative path these quotes  seem to be talking about.

The problem with these quotes as being used here, is that we really don't know exactly what music she is specifically talking about.  We seem to automatically assume the music that is a blessing that she speaks of is the kind of music that we believe has blessed us, the music that fits our own taste in music.  And conversely, the music that she is critical of that she says is the tool of the devil we assume to be specifically that which we don't like and that does not touch our souls with deep spiritual truth.  

It is like comparing the taste of our favorite food by just talking about the taste in very broad terms, but not really experiencing it or actually saying what food we are talking about.  "Yummy"  "Oh that tastes too delicious." "The ingredients were of the best quality with high nutritional value." "That was a very well planned and well balanced meal, perfection on a plate!" "The savory goodness of that bite was just exquisite!"    "But the bite from that dish really left a bitter aftertaste."  "This lovingly prepared dish was my favorite.  The presentation was appealing to the eye.   The texture  was perfectly balanced with the flavors. And every bite was bursting with a symphony of flavors that delighted my palate from start to finish..."  

Did you really understand or even know what kind of food I was talking about?  Could you tell anything about the actual food that would help you enjoy it, plan and prepare  it for yourself, or pick it out of a vast array of food? Pretty much meaningless, isn't it?

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, Reddogs said:

The Pentecostalist have such a service and are one of the biggest religions in the world, do you think the Gospel and Gods truth is being spread by them. Hmmmm...

Many Pentecostals and charismatic churches have ministries all over the world where many traditional Christians don't go.  Yes, the Gospel and God's truths are being spread by them.

LIke I said before, if you don't like contemporary Christian music, find a church that doesn't play any -there are plenty out there.  Just because you find it distasteful doesn't make it evil.

God's been around long enough to have a pretty broad taste in music.  I wouldn't be suprised if he listened to a little Stevie Ray Vaugn or Jimmy Hendrix every once and a while.

[Aliensanctuary]

The Church of Christ, I believe, doesn't allow any musical instruments in their worship services, including organs and pianos.

[Reddogs]

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2015‎ ‎6‎:‎28‎:‎43‎, Tom Wetmore said:

Missing the point...

So you say....but still you give no insight..

[Gregory Matthews]

There are two (2) denominations that go by the name Church of Christ.  There are many differences between them as one is liberal and the other conservative. 

The Church of Christ, I believe, doesn't allow any musical instruments in their worship services, including organs and pianos.

[Gregory Matthews]

Actually, Tom's comment contained insight.  I guess you missed, Reddog when you said:

So you say....but still you give no insight..

[JoeMo]

Red, it really sounds like you have an axe to grind about what you perceive is wrong with the church.  I pray that God will open your eyes to see the good work and miracles that are taking place daily around you; and that God will break off the bitterness you feel, and fill you peace, love, and acceptance under all circumstances.

[GayatfootofCross]

3 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Actually, Tom's comment contained insight.  I guess you missed, Reddog when you said:

 

 

Tremendous insight!

Comparing where our individual minds go to with broad statements regarding music and correlating it food!.

..it is all personal taste and things we think of when someone describes something!

I have two words ....FABU  and LUS!

 

Tom Wetmore post and me embellishing in Purple

(please forgive me for having a lil silly put in..being the Holidays and all)

It is like comparing the taste of our favorite food by just talking about the taste in very broad terms, but not really experiencing it or actually saying what food we are talking about.  "Yummy" ( I think Chocolate Chip Cookies .. U think Candied Yams)  "Oh that tastes too delicious." ( I think Oatmeal Burgers in Cream of Mushroom Gravy..  U think Pecan Pie with a dollop Creme Fraiche )  "The ingredients were of the best quality with high nutritional value."  (I think of Baked Organic Brussels Sprouts .. U think Candied Yams with a Brown Sugar Sauce )" "That was a very well planned and well balanced meal, perfection on a plate!" ( I think Tues Special KFC Chicken and Corn and Biscuit Plate ...U Think of Hungry Man's TV Dinner) "The savory goodness of that bite was just exquisite!" ( I think of Special K Loaf ..  U think of a Nut Spread on a Triscuit)  "But the bite row that dish really left a bitter aftertaste." ( I think  Vegie Lentil Stew with too much Vinegar added for "brightness" .. U think of My lousy Baked Brussels Sprout Dish when I didn't cook the sulfur taste out) "This lovingly prepared dish was my favorite." ( I think of My Grandpas baked Pisghettie with Artichokes  U think of your Mama's Delicious fall favorite - Ratatouille ) "The presentation was appealing to the eye." ( I think of Filet Mignon with a Horseradish  Green Apple Cream Sauce  on a Bed of Red Potato Gratin  lightly drizzled with a Parsley and Garlic Pesto Followed by a slice of Pecan Pumpkin Cheesecake with Spun Sugar  .. U think  of a Gooey Plate of Delicious Nachos with  a Glob of fresh Guacamole and black olives spread out generously Followed by a Lil Debbie Snack Cake with Spun Sugar ) " The texture  was perfectly balanced with the flavors. And every bite was bursting with a symphony of flavors that delighted my palate from start to finish..." ( I think of a fresh Mediterranean Pizza Pie ..U think of Tofurky Pot Pie with Mashed Potatoes under a sea of Cashew Gravy and a  Green Bean Casserole and my Baked Brussels Sprouts cooked to crispy Perfection and  the Dreaded Candied Yams with Rainbow Colored Marshmallows) 

Did you really understand or even know what kind of food I was talking about?  Could you tell anything about the actual food that would help you enjoy it, plan and prepare  it for yourself, or pick it out of a vast array of food? Pretty much meaningless, isn't it?

..........................

.

 Bedlam of Noise? ( I think of an Organ Grinder with a Screeching Monkey wearing a Hotel Bellhop Hat doing tricks ..U think of a dude with a tambourine? )

 

# we are truly making God in our own Image when we think our preferences are God's Preferences

 

7 hours ago, Reddogs said:

So you say....but still you give no insight..

On 11/11/2015, 3:58:13, Tom Wetmore said:

 

 

[JoeMo]

On 11/9/2015, 11:36:03, Tom Wetmore said:

 

Whose carnal nature on the occasion in question was excited and stirred? Were the kids' movements on the stage really crudely sexual as you described it?  Really? Do you honestly think they had any sexual motive, excitation or intent in there minds?  Or were your adult perceptions and thoughts of the movements of those kids what was crudely sexualized?  Seems more than a little creepy and perverted that you would see them that way, don't you think?  Whose carnal nature exactly was excited that such ideas so easily came to mind?  

 

Amen, Tom.  I am a leader of a contemporary praise band at a local SDA church; and I clap and raise my hands and dance (albeit clumsily) when I lead music.  Many in the congregation do the same.  Speaking for myself, I am not doing this to simply put on a show or "shake my booty".  Personally knowing the character of the Godly women in our congregation, I highly doubt that they're doing it, either.  They would be greatly offended if they were confronted about doing such.

When I look at scripture, I see the following:

You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands. (Is. 55:12)

"Wearing a linen ephod, David was dancing before the Lord with all his might, ¹⁵ while he and all Israel were bringing up the ark of the Lord with shouts and the sound of trumpets.  ¹⁶ As the ark of the Lord was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, she despised him in her heart. (2Sam.6:12-14)

Also see Rev. 4 and 5.  It sounds more like a charismatic praise service than the somberness of a traditional service.

I have no problem with either traditional hymns or contemporary praise music.  It's all about whom I am worshipping; and in a proper frame of mind I am blessed either way.  We mix hymns in with contemporary music; but we play them on guitars and keyboards.

[Tom Wetmore]

19 hours ago, Aliensanctuary said:

The Church of Christ, I believe, doesn't allow any musical instruments in their worship services, including organs and pianos.

Maybe that is the solution. Ban all music.  We dare not make even the slightest misstep....

[Gregory Matthews]

Even the Very conservative Church of Christ does not ban all music.  It bans instruments that were not used in Biblical times.

[Reddogs]

21 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

There are two (2) denominations that go by the name Church of Christ.  There are many differences between them as one is liberal and the other conservative. 

 

 

Saying "Missing the point... " with no content seems pretty empty in my view...

[Reddogs]

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2015‎ ‎1‎:‎31‎:‎39‎, Aliensanctuary said:

The Church of Christ, I believe, doesn't allow any musical instruments in their worship services, including organs and pianos.

In the old days, you couldn't bring in even a guitar or any amplified instruments into the Adventist churches, so things change. But music done to praise God versus that done for self, always is what God desires.

[Reddogs]

20 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Red, it really sounds like you have an axe to grind about what you perceive is wrong with the church.  I pray that God will open your eyes to see the good work and miracles that are taking place daily around you; and that God will break off the bitterness you feel, and fill you peace, love, and acceptance under all circumstances.

No, I have nothing against Gods end time remnant church which is the body of Christ, but what its leaders and some pastors are doing or allowing in their churches does raise many questions.

[Reddogs]

15 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Amen, Tom.  I am a leader of a contemporary praise band at a local SDA church; and I clap and raise my hands and dance (albeit clumsily) when I lead music.  Many in the congregation do the same.  Speaking for myself, I am not doing this to simply put on a show or "shake my booty".  Personally knowing the character of the Godly women in our congregation, I highly doubt that they're doing it, either.  They would be greatly offended if they were confronted about doing such.

When I look at scripture, I see the following:

You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands. (Is. 55:12)

"Wearing a linen ephod, David was dancing before the Lord with all his might, ¹⁵ while he and all Israel were bringing up the ark of the Lord with shouts and the sound of trumpets.  ¹⁶ As the ark of the Lord was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, she despised him in her heart. (2Sam.6:12-14)

Also see Rev. 4 and 5.  It sounds more like a charismatic praise service than the somberness of a traditional service.

I have no problem with either traditional hymns or contemporary praise music.  It's all about whom I am worshipping; and in a proper frame of mind I am blessed either way.  We mix hymns in with contemporary music; but we play them on guitars and keyboards.

So  if you sing and play to Gods glory and to give praise, then there is no sin and would be blameless, but for those who are doing it for self and leading others into the carnal side with the rhythm or beat and dancing which bring many into foolish and hurtful lusts leading them into destruction and perdition, the same cannot be said. 

Need to see where you are at on this issue....

[Reddogs]

10 hours ago, Tom Wetmore said:

Maybe that is the solution. Ban all music.  We dare not make even the slightest misstep....

It can be used for Gods glory and to praise Him, the question is are we doing that?

 

2 Chronicles 5:13

It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the Lord;

[Gregory Matthews]

I find it of interest that music acceptable in one part of the world may  not be acceptable in other parts of the world.  There are regional, ethnic and cultural differences.

As the United States is becoming more multi-cultural SDA congregations are also becoming impacted by attendees who come form different backgrounds.  This  challenges and results in concern from our members who may be WASP and not accustomed to the worship style of the newcomers.

 

[JoeMo]

10 hours ago, Reddogs said:

So  if you sing and play to Gods glory and to give praise, then there is no sin and would be blameless, but for those who are doing it for self and leading others into the carnal side with the rhythm or beat and dancing which bring many into foolish and hurtful lusts leading them into destruction and perdition, the same cannot be said.

Need to see where you are at on this issue....

Where I stand on worship music....

While many secular artists do music for the reasons highlighted above; I prefer to take the optimistic approach the most (not all) professed Christian artists are singing and playing to God's glory and to worship and praise.  Admittedly, there are probably exceptions.  But many times , lust comes from the hearth of the observer; and not the performer.  There are some very attractive female Christian singers; but that doesn't mean they're "nasty" or "lustful".  I can't speak for the attractiveness of male artists; I'm just not wired that way.

9 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

I find it of interest that music acceptable in one part of the world may  not be acceptable in other parts of the world.  There are regional, ethnic and cultural differences.

As the United States is becoming more multi-cultural SDA congregations are also becoming impacted by attendees who come form different backgrounds.  This  challenges and results in concern from our members who may be WASP and not accustomed to the worship style of the newcomers.

 

Gregory makes a great point about the increasing cultural diversity of our faith leads to difeerent tastse in music.  For example, music that us old white folks appreciate may be distasteful to young people of color and vice-versa.  I'm OK with believers finding their own way to worship and praise that glorifies God and lifts their hearts in love of God.

 

Blessings and Good Sabbath to you!

[Gregory Matthews]

It is of interest that a song generally has two (2) parts, a tune and words.

If you delve into the history of common hymns that we sing in church, we will find that for some of them, the tunes came from songs that were either secular in the society in which they came from, or they were actually drinking songs sung in establishments that served alcohol for beverage purposes.  When Christian words were added to those songs, they became hymns that were sung in Christian churches.

 

 

[Tom Wetmore]

Important point, Gregory.   It is the words that should be considered to judge the message of the song.  The tune  just carries the words that carry the message.  

The tune conveys the words.  The words convey the message.  Both have to be in a familiar "language" to the listener for the message to get through to the listener.  If either one is not, the message likely will not get through to the listener.  Just as it is important to convey the spoken or written word in the language of those we seek to reach with our message, conveying our musical message in the musical language of the listener is important.

Just as when those hymns were set to familiar tunes of that long bygone era, so songs of today are set to  contemporary tunes and musical styles.  

[LifeHiscost]

On 11/11/2015, 1:42:40, Aliensanctuary said:

Here's a rendition of an old hymn by a Japanese boy and girl onstage. They do catch one's attention.

https://www.facebook.com/merchi.ratunuman/videos/791386107654224/?fref=nf

I just watched  and listened to Josh Groban and Celine Dione present the same song and came to the conclusion that one cannot come to the conclusion that any other than the Christ of the Word deserves that measure of adoration. The young ones, if they sang for Him gave just as appropriate response.

God is Love!  Jesus saves!  Shabbat Shalom 

[Tom Wetmore]

On November 11, 2015 at 4:42:40 AM, Aliensanctuary said:

Here's a rendition of an old hymn by a Japanese boy and girl onstage. They do catch one's attention.

https://www.facebook.com/merchi.ratunuman/videos/791386107654224/?fref=nf

The caption erroneously calls it an "old" hymn.  It is actually a contemporary song written in 2002, and was popularized by Josh Grobin a year or so later.  It has been recorded and performed by numerous contemporary artists.  I first became aware of it as recorded by the Christian group Selah.   It is a favorite contemporary Christian song/hymn song in praise services with varying instrumental accompaniment.  It is an example of contemporary Christian music that truly confounds the typical conservative/traditional condemnation of the whole category of music.  And it further supports the futility of discussing any music without actually listening to/watching/ experiencing specific examples of what is under discussion.

It is a most beautiful song of adoration and praise, which is the definition of hymn.  So it is  correctly identified as a hymn, albeit very much a  contemporary song of praise and adoration.  

And those two little kids just nailed it!!!

[Tom Wetmore]

And in the interest of muddying the waters even more I would offer for consideration the Wiki article on hymns - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymn  

Having grown up in the church singing hymns I had just never stopped to even think what a hymn was.  So I was trying to figure out from a musical standpoint, what sort of song really can be called a hymn.  One might almost assume from the collection of hymns we are so familiar with from various church hymnals that a certain aging process is required for a song to be called a hymn.  And more significantly I would have assumed hymns were exclusively religious and more particularly Christian.   Wrong!  

And given the clear pagan roots of hymns and even the very word itself, we really do need to purge the word from our vocabulary!  

[JoeMo]

On 11/11/2015, 2:42:40, Aliensanctuary said:

Here's a rendition of an old hymn by a Japanese boy and girl onstage. They do catch one's attention.

I also am crying right now.  That was amazing! Praise God for how He spreads His love to others through music!

[Gerr]

 

      150       Praise the LORD! 

      Praise God in his Temple! 
      Praise his strength in heaven! 
      2      Praise him for the mighty things he has done. 
      Praise his supreme greatness. 

      3      Praise him with trumpets. 
      Praise him with harps and lyres. 
      4      Praise him with drums and dancing. 
      Praise him with harps and flutes. 
      5      Praise him with cymbals. 
      Praise him with loud cymbals. 
      6      Praise the LORD, all living creatures! 

      Praise the LORD! 

American Bible Society. (1992). The Holy Bible: The Good news Translation (2nd ed., Ps 150:1–6). New York: American Bible Society.