EGW, the filter for truth...

[Scuba]

One of the issues I had with being an Adventist is that they say they use the Bible to draw all truth and that is true, they do. But before the truth can become part of their doctrines or personal faith it must first pass through the filter of EGW. When a certain truth is drawn from the Bible that contradicts a writing of EGW it is rejected, no matter how clear the truth is. One example, the SDA church rejects the true timeline of Jesus' death and resurrection because it contradicts the writings of EGW. To me, the position the writings of EGW holds in the SDA is a stumbling block to truth, not an asset.

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Scuba said:

To me, the position the writings of EGW holds in the SDA is a stumbling block to truth, not an asset.

I think it is how people view and use her writings. Sister White herself wanted the Scriptures to be the final arbiter for truth.

But yes, you have a point. Many run to her writings for haven when they can't  find shelter in Scriptures.

[Scuba]

 

1 hour ago, Samie said:

I think it is how people view and use her writings. Sister White herself wanted the Scriptures to be the final arbiter for truth.

But yes, you have a point. Many run to her writings for haven when they can't  find shelter in Scriptures.

How can this be corrected? 

[pnattmbtc]

If Ellen White was inspired, then her writings would be in harmony with the Bible, since the same Holy Spirit would have inspired both.  So I think thiere's a logical problem involved if you try to construct a scenario whereby officially the church can hold positions which contradict what Ellen White wrote.

 

[Scuba]

16 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

If Ellen White was inspired, then her writings would be in harmony with the Bible, since the same Holy Spirit would have inspired both.  So I think thiere's a logical problem involved if you try to construct a scenario whereby officially the church can hold positions which contradict what Ellen White wrote.

 

It would be so much easier and acceptable if they would just stick with the Bible. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Inspired:  One should note the purpose of the inspiration.  The Biblical writers were inspired to produce a record that would record the life of Christ  (NT), record the activity of God in human life (OT) and to teach doctrine.

Ellen White clearly stated that she was not inspired to do what the Biblical writers were inspired to do.  She was not to replace the Bible.  She was not to add to the Bible.  The purpose of the Bible was unique and functions in a role that no other written document functions. 

The role of Ellen White was to guide a developing denomination during its formative years.   That role was unique and quite different from the Biblical writers.

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

1) The SDA  position on the timeline for Christ's death and resurrection is little based upon EGW.  Rather it is based on much more.  If you believe otherwise, you simply do not understand the issue.  Regardless, you are certainly entitled to hold to another position on this issue.

2) Some people have made EGW a stumbling block.  Please do not generalize that to a larger audience than actually exists.

One example, the SDA church rejects the true timeline of Jesus' death and resurrection because it contradicts the writings of EGW. To me, the position the writings of EGW holds in the SDA is a stumbling block to truth, not an asset.

[/quote]

 

[Scuba]

30 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

1) The SDA  position on the timeline for Christ's death and resurrection is little based upon EGW.  Rather it is based on much more.  If you believe otherwise, you simply do not understand the issue.  Regardless, you are certainly entitled to hold to another position on this issue.

2) Some people have made EGW a stumbling block.  Please do not generalize that to a larger audience than actually exists.

 

Why is it that the SDA hold to a Friday crucifixion and a Sunday resurrection when it's all based and rooted in paganism of which Sunday worship had the same origin? 

[BobRyan]

On 11/9/2015, 5:25:14, Scuba said:

One of the issues I had with being an Adventist is that they say they use the Bible to draw all truth and that is true, they do. But before the truth can become part of their doctrines or personal faith it must first pass through the filter of EGW. When a certain truth is drawn from the Bible that contradicts a writing of EGW it is rejected, no matter how clear the truth is. One example, the SDA church rejects the true timeline of Jesus' death and resurrection because it contradicts the writings of EGW. To me, the position the writings of EGW holds in the SDA is a stumbling block to truth, not an asset.

Fascinating accusation. Did you have an example? For example what part of the Friday Crucifixion did you suppose is "not in the Bible"???

 

"Early on the first day of the week" for the resurrection. Luke 24:1

 

And of course Luke 24 on week-day-1 "THIS is the THIRD day"  Luke 24:21 is the statement of the actual eye-witness disciples -- said to Christ Himself.

How then is all that -- "evil SDA"??

 

You may choose to reject all of that Bible evidence as your own POV (you have free will) - but then how in the world do you "blame it all on EGW" or "SDAs" given that you are going against the Bible on that point? You have chosen to see it differently - but that did not cause the Bible to vanish and it can hardly be claimed that the Baptists and Lutherans that also admit to these same Bible details are "Following Ellen White" to see these details in the actual Bible.

It is "obvious" to all of us that you have a different POV - and "would like" that to somehow be blamed on Ellen White or SDAs. Seems a bit contrived.

 

[Scuba]

19 minutes ago, BobRyan said:

Fascinating accusation. Did you have an example? For example what part of the Friday Crucifixion did you suppose is "not in the Bible"???

 

"Early on the first day of the week" for the resurrection. Luke 24:1

 

And of course Luke 24 on week-day-1 "THIS is the THIRD day"  Luke 24:21 is the statement of the actual eye-witness disciples -- said to Christ Himself.

How then is all that -- "evil SDA"??

 

You may choose to reject all of that Bible evidence as your own POV (you have free will) - but then how in the world do you "blame it all on EGW" or "SDAs" given that you are going against the Bible on that point? You have chosen to see it differently - but that did not cause the Bible to vanish and it can hardly be claimed that the Baptists and Lutherans that also admit to these same Bible details are "Following Ellen White" to see these details in the actual Bible.

It is "obvious" to all of us that you have a different POV - and "would like" that to somehow be blamed on Ellen White or SDAs. Seems a bit contrived.

 

I'm at work right now so the easiest way to grasp this truth is to watch my videos. 

 

[JoeMo]

On Monday, November 09, 2015 6:07:56, Scuba said:

How can this be corrected?

 

6 hours ago, Scuba said:

It would be so much easier and acceptable if they would just stick with the Bible.

Without getting hung up on the crucifixion debate, I think Scuba answered his own question here.  Furthermore, I don't think that any denomination (or offshoot) has a monopoly on "truth".  IMHO, it is not a salvational issue on which day Christ died and resurrected; it is important that He DID die and resurrect.  Which day might make for interesting debate; but our salvations doesn't hinge on it any more than whether or not we should continue observing OT festivals.

EGW did have the prophetic gift; but she did NOT hold the formal office of "Prophet".  In the OT, the gift of prophecy was concentrated in a few priviledged individuals.  In the NT, it is a distributed gift available to the whole church.  Furthermore, the gift of interpretation and discernment  are DIFFERENT than the gift of prophecy.  Wheras EGW's vision were (arguably) true and accurate, her interpretation (IMO) was not.  Writings of EGW is fine as a guide, as are Billy Graham's, Joseph Prince's, Tozer's, Luther's, etc.  The Bible and the Spirit are the ONLY standards by which these writings can be judged.

[Scuba]

52 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

 

Without getting hung up on the crucifixion debate, I think Scuba answered his own question here.  Furthermore, I don't think that any denomination (or offshoot) has a monopoly on "truth".  IMHO, it is not a salvational issue on which day Christ died and resurrected; it is important that He DID die and resurrect.  Which day might make for interesting debate; but our salvations doesn't hinge on it any more than whether or not we should continue observing OT festivals.

EGW did have the prophetic gift; but she did NOT hold the formal office of "Prophet".  In the OT, the gift of prophecy was concentrated in a few priviledged individuals.  In the NT, it is a distributed gift available to the whole church.  Furthermore, the gift of interpretation and discernment  are DIFFERENT than the gift of prophecy.  Wheras EGW's vision were (arguably) true and accurate, her interpretation (IMO) was not.  Writings of EGW is fine as a guide, as are Billy Graham's, Joseph Prince's, Tozer's, Luther's, etc.  The Bible and the Spirit are the ONLY standards by which these writings can be judged.

The problem is that God warned us not to follow the Beast that changed God's times with an (s) and law. There are many times that the Beast changed, the Sabbath is only one of them. If you follow the Beastthe follow is system. 

[pnattmbtc]

57 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

 

Without getting hung up on the crucifixion debate, I think Scuba answered his own question here.  Furthermore, I don't think that any denomination (or offshoot) has a monopoly on "truth".  IMHO, it is not a salvational issue on which day Christ died and resurrected; it is important that He DID die and resurrect.  Which day might make for interesting debate; but our salvations doesn't hinge on it any more than whether or not we should continue observing OT festivals.

EGW did have the prophetic gift; but she did NOT hold the formal office of "Prophet".  In the OT, the gift of prophecy was concentrated in a few priviledged individuals.  In the NT, it is a distributed gift available to the whole church.  Furthermore, the gift of interpretation and discernment  are DIFFERENT than the gift of prophecy.  Wheras EGW's vision were (arguably) true and accurate, her interpretation (IMO) was not.  Writings of EGW is fine as a guide, as are Billy Graham's, Joseph Prince's, Tozer's, Luther's, etc.  The Bible and the Spirit are the ONLY standards by which these writings can be judged.

The first course I took at the seminary was on Revelation and Inspiration, and the professor made the point that people often split these two functions as you have, as one being only divine and the other both divine and human, but this cannot be done.  That is, the revelation part of "revelation and inspiration" is just as dependent upon the human as is the inspiration part.  Anytime you have human beings involved, whether involving Scripture or not, whether involving revelation or inspiration, there is room for human fallibility.

EGW wrote that God has not place Himself on trial in Scripture in either rhetoric or logic (I think this is accurate, although the wording here is mine).

Having a correct view of how inspiration works is I think an extremely challenging task.  I know my view has evolved over the years, and still is.  It's quite an extraordinary thing that God is able to communicate with man as He as, even not having all the answers as to how this works.  His words are "spirit" and "life".  Incredible!

[Wingnut]

16 minutes ago, Scuba said:

The problem is that God warned us not to follow the Beast that changed God's times with an (s) and law. There are many times that the Beast changed, the Sabbath is only one of them. If you follow the Beastthe follow is system. 

Could anyone explain to me how Sunday can be the Mark of the Beast in light of these scriptures...

Rev 13

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Especially verse 17 where the mark has three options and two places, head and hand.  Thanks.

[Scuba]

2 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Could anyone explain to me how Sunday can be the Mark of the Beast in light of these scriptures...

Rev 13

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Especially verse 17 where the mark has three options and two places, head and hand.  Thanks.

Well, first there are some truths that need to be learned before we just jump right into the answer. When the New Testament talks about something on the hand and on the forehead it's not something new. Listen and notice how it's referring to where the commandments of God should be.

Deuteronomy 11:18-19 “Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall teach them to your children, speaking of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.

The forehead or frontal lobe is where worship, belief, prayer and moral values are formulated. The hand is symbolic for what you do, in other words, your works. These two things are very important to God because they represent faith and works.

The number 666 is the number of a man it's also the number of his name. It represents a person (a man) and his authority (his name), in other words, his position and his commandments. It's a religious system with a man at its head. We know this because we are warned not to worship it and we know the foundation of worship has to do with what we believe and what we do, (faith and works).

Mark 7:7 And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

Matthew 15:9 And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

This man, who bears the number 666, is the head of a system that has it's roots in Babylon. This is why God is calling His people to come out of Babylon, which as to do with all the beliefs and practices of Babylon. How do we fight this system in our personal work with the LORD? We fight this system by obeying the commandments of God and holding our faith in Jesus

Revelation 14:9-12 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

If we have the number of this man and his name on our hand and forehead it means we are following him and his system. 

To me, having the mark of the Beast has to do with how you manifest your loyalty. We accept the Beast by obeying him and deny the Beast by disobeying him. We accept God by obeying Him and we deny God by disobeying Him. 

Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

All throughout the Bible we hear of the seventh day being the LORD's day. We hear God calling His people to set that day aside for sacred assembly. We hear how Jesus is Lord of the seventh day Sabbath. When you honor the seventh day Sabbath you are obeying God. When you honor Sunday as the Lord's day you are obeying the Beast.

“Sunday is our mark of authority… the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact” (Catholic Record of London, Ontario Sept 1, 1923).

The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957): 50:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why Do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

Honoring Sunday plays a big part of where your loyalty is so you could say that keeping Sunday as the Lord's day is the mark of the Beast because it's the Beast, not God, who commands Sunday. But keep in mind, the Beast also instituted Christmas, Easter, Friday crucifixion and Sunday resurrection, secret rapture, eternal burning hell and so much more.

[JoeMo]

3 minutes ago, Scuba said:

Honoring Sunday plays a big part of where your loyalty is so you could say that keeping Sunday as the Lord's day is the mark of the Beast because it's the Beast, not God, who commands Sunday.

Could be.  What about keeping Friday (the Muslim "Lord's Day)?  Seems like in this day and age, there is a lot more pressure for Christians in the Middle East, North Africa, and Asia to "keep" Friday rather than Saturday or Sunday.  I don't see the RCC running around beheading people for breaking Catholic rules.  A lot of that going on in jihadist Islam.  Could it be that EGW was WRONG? Could it be that the beast power is not the RCC, but Islam?  Could the mark of the beast be a tatoo or other sign that identifies one as a Muslim (or as a non-Muslim)? It was effective for identifying Jews during WW2.  Could Christians (both Catholic and Protestant) be experiencing a "mini" Great Tribulation in the Middle East as we speak?

According to a report on Fox news and other media outlets, in the past decade, the population of Christians in the Middle East and North Africa - the birthplace of Christianity - has fallen from over 1.5 Million to about 275,000 - or by 87% - and could very well vanish in the next decade.  Why? Because of Islamic persecution.  Show me someplace where Catholicism is persecuting Protestants like that.

It's time for SDA's to catch up with the 21st century.  150 years ago the RCC may have been considered a scourge; partly because most people in the West were not familiar with Islam.  Let's examine scripture in light of what we know now rather than what we knew 150 years ago.

You may say "Tradition! Tradition! Tradition!  We can't abandon the principles of our pioneers!"  Why not - if they were wrong?  600 years ago everyone believed that the earth was flat and the universe revolved around the earth. We abandoned that based on better and updated info.  Shouldn't we do the same with our spiritual beliefs when new and better info presents itself?

[Scuba]

8 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Could be.  What about keeping Friday (the Muslim "Lord's Day)?  Seems like in this day and age, there is a lot more pressure for Christians in the Middle East, North Africa, and Asia to "keep" Friday rather than Saturday or Sunday.  I don't see the RCC running around beheading people for breaking Catholic rules.  A lot of that going on in jihadist Islam.  Could it be that EGW was WRONG? Could it be that the beast power is not the RCC, but Islam?  Could the mark of the beast be a tatoo or other sign that identifies one as a Muslim (or as a non-Muslim)? It was effective for identifying Jews during WW2.  Could Christians (both Catholic and Protestant) be experiencing a "mini" Great Tribulation in the Middle East as we speak?

According to a report on Fox news and other media outlets, in the past decade, the population of Christians in the Middle East and North Africa - the birthplace of Christianity - has fallen from over 1.5 Million to about 275,000 - or by 87% - and could very well vanish in the next decade.  Why? Because of Islamic persecution.  Show me someplace where Catholicism is persecuting Protestants like that.

It's time for SDA's to catch up with the 21st century.  150 years ago the RCC may have been considered a scourge; partly because most people in the West were not familiar with Islam.  Let's examine scripture in light of what we know now rather than what we knew 150 years ago.

You may say "Tradition! Tradition! Tradition!  We can't abandon the principles of our pioneers!"  Why not - if they were wrong?  600 years ago everyone believed that the earth was flat and the universe revolved around the earth. We abandoned that based on better and updated info.  Shouldn't we do the same with our spiritual beliefs when new and better info presents itself?

The man of sin sits in the temple of God claiming to be God. The temple of God is God's people and God's people are those who keep the commandments of God and have faith in Jesus. The man of sin is the son of perdition. The son of perdition is one who was in but turned away to do his own thing. The Vatican, with it's Papacy, is the little horn of Daniel. It fits God's prophetic timeline perfectly. The woman in red and purple with a golden cup in her hand who rides the Beast is the Vatican/Church. It's the city on seven hills. The Vatican tortured and killed more people than the Muslims and it ain't over yet. There is so much more, way too much to deny. Watch these last days as the Papacy and the USA begin to draw from each other and rise up to fight against all evil forces that come against what they stand for.

[CoAspen]

[JoeMo]

Scuba,

You drink too much of the "kool-aid".

[Scuba]

42 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Scuba,

You drink too much of the "kool-aid".

[Scuba]

Just now, Scuba said:

43 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Scuba,

You drink too much of the "kool-aid".

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

Could be.  What about keeping Friday (the Muslim "Lord's Day)?  Seems like in this day and age, there is a lot more pressure for Christians in the Middle East, North Africa, and Asia to "keep" Friday rather than Saturday or Sunday.  I don't see the RCC running around beheading people for breaking Catholic rules.  A lot of that going on in jihadist Islam.  Could it be that EGW was WRONG? Could it be that the beast power is not the RCC, but Islam?  Could the mark of the beast be a tatoo or other sign that identifies one as a Muslim (or as a non-Muslim)? It was effective for identifying Jews during WW2.  Could Christians (both Catholic and Protestant) be experiencing a "mini" Great Tribulation in the Middle East as we speak?

According to a report on Fox news and other media outlets, in the past decade, the population of Christians in the Middle East and North Africa - the birthplace of Christianity - has fallen from over 1.5 Million to about 275,000 - or by 87% - and could very well vanish in the next decade.  Why? Because of Islamic persecution.  Show me someplace where Catholicism is persecuting Protestants like that.

It's time for SDA's to catch up with the 21st century.  150 years ago the RCC may have been considered a scourge; partly because most people in the West were not familiar with Islam.  Let's examine scripture in light of what we know now rather than what we knew 150 years ago.

You may say "Tradition! Tradition! Tradition!  We can't abandon the principles of our pioneers!"  Why not - if they were wrong?  600 years ago everyone believed that the earth was flat and the universe revolved around the earth. We abandoned that based on better and updated info.  Shouldn't we do the same with our spiritual beliefs when new and better info presents itself?

I think it possible, that ISLAM is a counterfeit Beast.  Satan is saying to the world, "Look over  there.  Look over there!"  That's the Beast.  It fits perfectly with the description of the Beast in Revelation.  There will even be a Gog/Magog type Battle, with all those Islamic nations participating.  But - they will be defeated, by the REAL Beast power.  The REAL Beast will seem like a deliverer. 

[Wingnut]

Scuba  - thanks for the explanation regarding the mark of the Beast.

If it turns out that the mark IS something like a literal 666 (or chi sigma stigma - three Gk letters) to be tatooed onto hand or forehead, and it is imposed by a charismatic  religio-political leader other than the Pope, do you think the SDA's will react appropriately to being wrong, and resist THAT mark?

[Samie]

On 11/9/2015, 6:25:14, Scuba said:

One example, the SDA church rejects the true timeline of Jesus' death and resurrection because it contradicts the writings of EGW.

There are two attacks on the Sabbath:

 

1.  transfer of sanctity from Saturday to Sunday 

2.  transfer of Christ's resurrection day from Saturday to Sunday.

SDA’s know about #1 very well.  Unfortunately, but without blaming anyone, most are not aware of #2. 

 

^BGT Mark 16:9 VAnasta.j de. prwi> prw,th| sabba,tou evfa,nh prw/ton Mari,a| th/| Magdalhnh/|( parV h-j evkbeblh,kei e`pta. daimo,niaÅ

 

^KJV Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

 

The attack can be seen in the translation of the phrase “prwi> prw,th| sabba,tou” into “early the first day of the week”.    sabba,tou  is noun genitive neuter singular common from sa,bbaton which the Greeks derived from the Hebrew tB'v; ((shabbath).  All occurrences of sabba,tou  in the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint) is derived from  tB'v; ((shabbath) and not for once from [;Wbv' (shabuwa)` which is Hebrew for “week”.  The Greek for “week” is e[bdomoj  (hebdomos).

 Many SDA’s are not even aware that in all the NT verses where the phrase “first day of the week is mentioned”, the “week” is translated from the Greek sa,bbaton, although of course, most are aware that the reason commonly given for Sunday-keeping is that it was the day of Christ’s resurrection.

 If honest Sunday-keepers will come to know that Jesus actually resurrected Saturday, then there would be no reason for them to remain Sunday-keepers. I guess we will see an exodus of Sundaykeepers from keeping the venerable day of the sun into keeping the Sabbath according to the commandment, Saturday, the 7^th day of the week.

[Scuba]

59 minutes ago, Samie said:

There are two attacks on the Sabbath:

 

1.  transfer of sanctity from Saturday to Sunday 

2.  transfer of Christ's resurrection day from Saturday to Sunday.

SDA’s know about #1 very well.  Unfortunately, but without blaming anyone, most are not aware of #2. 

 

^BGT Mark 16:9 VAnasta.j de. prwi> prw,th| sabba,tou evfa,nh prw/ton Mari,a| th/| Magdalhnh/|( parV h-j evkbeblh,kei e`pta. daimo,niaÅ

 

^KJV Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

 

The attack can be seen in the translation of the phrase “prwi> prw,th| sabba,tou” into “early the first day of the week”.    sabba,tou  is noun genitive neuter singular common from sa,bbaton which the Greeks derived from the Hebrew tB'v; ((shabbath).  All occurrences of sabba,tou  in the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint) is derived from  tB'v; ((shabbath) and not for once from [;Wbv' (shabuwa)` which is Hebrew for “week”.  The Greek for “week” is e[bdomoj  (hebdomos).

 Many SDA’s are not even aware that in all the NT verses where the phrase “first day of the week is mentioned”, the “week” is translated from the Greek sa,bbaton, although of course, most are aware that the reason commonly given for Sunday-keeping is that it was the day of Christ’s resurrection.

 If honest Sunday-keepers will come to know that Jesus actually resurrected Saturday, then there would be no reason for them to remain Sunday-keepers. I guess we will see an exodus of Sundaykeepers from keeping the venerable day of the sun into keeping the Sabbath according to the commandment, Saturday, the 7^th day of the week.

Praise God for your insight. It's refreshing to hear of others who see this.