EGW, the filter for truth...

[Scuba]

2 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Scuba  - thanks for the explanation regarding the mark of the Beast.

If it turns out that the mark IS something like a literal 666 (or chi sigma stigma - three Gk letters) to be tatooed onto hand or forehead, and it is imposed by a charismatic  religio-political leader other than the Pope, do you think the SDA's will react appropriately to being wrong, and resist THAT mark?

Who knows what people will do. I don't believe the 666 mark on the forehead will be a literal mark any more than I believe God's people will have the word YAHWEH on their forehead. 

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.

[Wingnut]

5 minutes ago, Scuba said:

Who knows what people will do. I don't believe the 666 mark on the forehead will be a literal mark any more than I believe God's people will have the word YAHWEH on their forehead. 

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.

You may be entirely right.

But I wonder if folks are so fixated on one expected outcome, that they fail to see another possible one - that the Mark may actually be as literal as a 666 tatoo.  I don't know what the Mark is, but I keep ALL options open.

[Samie]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

There are two attacks on the Sabbath:

 

1.  transfer of sanctity from Saturday to Sunday 

2.  transfer of Christ's resurrection day from Saturday to Sunday.

SDA’s know about #1 very well.  Unfortunately, but without blaming anyone, most are not aware of #2. 

 

^BGT Mark 16:9 VAnasta.j de. prwi> prw,th| sabba,tou evfa,nh prw/ton Mari,a| th/| Magdalhnh/|( parV h-j evkbeblh,kei e`pta. daimo,niaÅ

 

^KJV Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

 

The attack can be seen in the translation of the phrase “prwi> prw,th| sabba,tou” into “early the first day of the week”.    sabba,tou  is noun genitive neuter singular common from sa,bbaton which the Greeks derived from the Hebrew tB'v; ((shabbath).  All occurrences of sabba,tou  in the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint) is derived from  tB'v; ((shabbath) and not for once from [;Wbv' (shabuwa)` which is Hebrew for “week”.  The Greek for “week” is e[bdomoj  (hebdomos).

 Many SDA’s are not even aware that in all the NT verses where the phrase “first day of the week is mentioned”, the “week” is translated from the Greek sa,bbaton, although of course, most are aware that the reason commonly given for Sunday-keeping is that it was the day of Christ’s resurrection.

 If honest Sunday-keepers will come to know that Jesus actually resurrected Saturday, then there would be no reason for them to remain Sunday-keepers. I guess we will see an exodus of Sundaykeepers from keeping the venerable day of the sun into keeping the Sabbath according to the commandment, Saturday, the 7^th day of the week.

“prwi> prw,th| sabba,tou” may also be translated into “early morning of the chief Sabbath”.  Why chief Sabbath? Because in that paschal week their occurred both ceremonial and weekly Sabbaths.  Obviously, between a ceremonial and the weekly Sabbath, the weekly Sabbath is the chief since the Lord calls it “my Sabbath”, while He calls the ceremonial Sabbaths as “your Sabbaths”.

[Samie]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

Many SDA’s are not even aware that in all the NT verses where the phrase “first day of the week" is mentioned, the “week” is translated from the Greek sa,bbaton, although of course, most are aware that the reason commonly given for Sunday-keeping is that it was the day of Christ’s resurrection.

Here are those verses:

1. ^KJV Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

    

      ^BGT Matthew 28:1 VOye. de. sabba,twn( th/| evpifwskou,sh| eivj mi,an sabba,twn h=lqen Maria.m h` Magdalhnh. kai. h` a;llh Mari,a qewrh/sai to.n ta,fonÅ

 

2. ^KJV Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

 

       ^BGT Mark 16:2 kai. li,an prwi> th/| mia/| tw/n sabba,twn e;rcontai evpi. to. mnhmei/on avnatei,lantoj tou/ h`li,ouÅ

 

3. ^KJV Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

 

        ^BGT Mark 16:9 VAnasta.j de. prwi> prw,th| sabba,tou evfa,nh prw/ton Mari,a| th/| Magdalhnh/|( parV h-j evkbeblh,kei e`pta. daimo,niaÅ

 

4. ^KJV Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

 

       ^BGT Luke 24:1 Th/| de. mia/| tw/n sabba,twn o;rqrou baqe,wj evpi. to. mnh/ma h=lqon fe,rousai a] h`toi,masan avrw,mataÅ

 

5.  ^KJV John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

 

       ^BGT John 20:1 Th/| de. mia/| tw/n sabba,twn Mari,a h` Magdalhnh. e;rcetai prwi> skoti,aj e;ti ou;shj eivj to. mnhmei/on kai. ble,pei to.n li,qon hvrme,non evk tou/ mnhmei,ouÅ

 

6.   ^KJV John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

 

      ^BGT John 20:19 Ou;shj ou=n ovyi,aj th/| h`me,ra| evkei,nh| th/| mia/| sabba,twn kai. tw/n qurw/n kekleisme,nwn o[pou h=san oi` maqhtai. dia. to.n fo,bon tw/n VIoudai,wn( h=lqen o` VIhsou/j kai. e;sth eivj to. me,son kai. le,gei auvtoi/j\ eivrh,nh u`mi/nÅ

 

7.  ^KJV Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

 

 

       ^BGT Acts 20:7 VEn de. th/| mia/| tw/n sabba,twn sunhgme,nwn h`mw/n kla,sai a;rton( o` Pau/loj diele,geto auvtoi/j me,llwn evxie,nai th/| evpau,rion( pare,teine,n te to.n lo,gon me,cri mesonukti,ouÅ

 

8.  ^KJV 1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

 

          ^BGT 1 Corinthians 16:2 kata. mi,an sabba,tou e[kastoj u`mw/n parV e`autw/| tiqe,tw qhsauri,zwn o[ ti eva.n euvodw/tai( i[na mh. o[tan e;lqw to,te logei/ai gi,nwntaiÅ

[Samie]

26 minutes ago, Samie said:

“prwi> prw,th| sabba,tou” may also be translated into “early morning of the chief Sabbath”.  Why chief Sabbath? Because in that paschal week their occurred both ceremonial and weekly Sabbaths.  Obviously, between a ceremonial and the weekly Sabbath, the weekly Sabbath is the chief since the Lord calls it “my Sabbath”, while He calls the ceremonial Sabbaths as “your Sabbaths”.

The two Sabbaths in that paschal week were:

1. the Passover Sabbath, which is a ceremonial Sabbath, and 

2. the weekly Sabbath, the Sabbath according to the Commandment.

 

Was there any possibility that the ceremonial Sabbath could have coincided with the weekly Sabbath that paschal week?

More next post . . .

[Samie]

Based on the accounts of Scriptures, it appears there is no possibility that the ceremonial passover sabbath could have coincided with the weekly Sabbath. How?

Notice that according to Mark, our Lord was crucified on a prosa,bbaton (prosabbaton), which is literally, day before Sabbath (Mk 15:42), and preparation day. 

^NKJ Mark 15:42 Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath,

Does that necessarily follow that this prosa,bbaton then fell on a day we now call Friday, just because it is preparation day? I beg to disagree, because it is not yet established , whether the Sabbath the prosa,bbaton preceded is the ceremonial or the weekly Sabbath. Nor that, that preparation day was preparation day for the weekly or the ceremonial Sabbath. Relying on the principle of allowing the Scriptures to be its own interpreter, we turn to other part of Scriptures for additional information.

John tells us that the day on which our Lord was crucified was preparation day of passover:

 

 ^NKJ John 19:14 Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, "Behold your King!"

So, OK. The Bible is clear that the preparation day mentioned by Mark is preparation day of Passover, and hence, preparation for the ceremonial Sabbath.  That preparation day is the same day our Lord was crucified. 

But this ceremonial Sabbath could have then fallen on the weekly Sabbath that’s why that same Sabbath was called “High Day” (John 19:31).  It is not conclusive since nowhere else in Scriptures is this term used to point out this fact.  Are we then left in the dark? No.

Going back to Mark, he mentions that the women followers of Jesus bought ointments when the Sabbath was past.

 

^NKJ Mark 16:1 Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him.

Which Sabbath is this that past? The weekly or the ceremonial Sabbath?  Let us turn to Luke. Luke records that the women followers of Jesus prepared spices and ointments before they rested the Sabbath according to the commandment.

 

^KJV Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

 Was the Sabbath referenced by Mark the same Sabbath referred to by Luke? Could not be possible or there is contradiction and the Bible cannot contradict itself.  Combining both accounts, we have Mark saying that when the Sabbath was past, the women bought spices which Luke said they prepared for anointing Jesus. And this they did before they rested the Sabbath according to the commandment, which is no doubt the weekly Sabbath.

The Sabbath reference of Mark is the ceremonial Sabbath; that of Luke is the weekly Sabbath.  The buying of spices and their preparing of those spices and ointments occurred on the same day, before they rested the weekly Sabbath or the Sabbath according to the commandment. Paraphrasing, when the ceremonial Sabbath was past, the women bought and prepared spices and ointments and then rested the weekly Sabbath, the Sabbath according to the commandment.

 Hence, it is not possible that the ceremonial Sabbath could have coincided with the weekly Sabbath that paschal week, otherwise we come up with a scenario where the spices bought after Saturday were prepared Friday.

Another related scenario next post.

[Scuba]

It's very easy to convert people who really want the truth about these changes to God's times. All you have to do is ask them when Mary bought the spices. Did she buy them before the Sabbath or after the Sabbath. In their search for the answer they will soon see there were two Sabbaths during the week of Jesus' crucifixion. Why would they come to this conclusion? Because one verse says Mary bought the spices after the Sabbath passed (Mark 16:1) and the other verse says she prepared the spices and rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment (Luke 23:56). If people would use God's map in Leviticus they would see that the day after Passover was a Sabbath. This works out to Jesus dying on Wednesday (Passover). Placed in the tomb at twilight Wednesday/Thursday. Thursday is a Sabbath because it was the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, this was a High Sabbath because it only came once a year. After the Thursday High Sabbath (Mark 16:1) it would now be Friday. Mary buys the spices on Friday, after the High Sabbath had passed (Mark 16:1). She preparing the spices on Friday but now the seventh day Sabbath is here so she rests on the seventh day Sabbath, according to the commandment (Luke 23:56).

During the week of Jesus' crucifixion they were counting the Sabbaths because, according to Leviticus, they had to count seven Sabbaths and then add a day. Counting seventh Sabbaths, plus one day, would bring them to the next important Feast of God called, Pentecost. Starting after the High Sabbath, on Thursday, they counted seven weekly Sabbaths. That would mean the Sabbath following the High Sabbath would the first Sabbath of the seven they had to count.

Luke 24:1 Now on the first Sabbath, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.

[Wingnut]

48 minutes ago, Scuba said:

It's very easy to convert people who really want the truth about these changes to God's times. All you have to do is ask them when Mary bought the spices. Did she buy them before the Sabbath or after the Sabbath. In their search for the answer they will soon see there were two Sabbaths during the week of Jesus' crucifixion. Why would they come to this conclusion? Because one verse says Mary bought the spices after the Sabbath passed (Mark 16:1) and the other verse says she prepared the spices and rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment (Luke 23:56). If people would use God's map in Leviticus they would see that the day after Passover was a Sabbath. This works out to Jesus dying on Wednesday (Passover). Placed in the tomb at twilight Wednesday/Thursday. Thursday is a Sabbath because it was the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, this was a High Sabbath because it only came once a year. After the Thursday High Sabbath (Mark 16:1) it would now be Friday. Mary buys the spices on Friday, after the High Sabbath had passed (Mark 16:1). She preparing the spices on Friday but now the seventh day Sabbath is here so she rests on the seventh day Sabbath, according to the commandment (Luke 23:56).

During the week of Jesus' crucifixion they were counting the Sabbaths because, according to Leviticus, they had to count seven Sabbaths and then add a day. Counting seventh Sabbaths, plus one day, would bring them to the next important Feast of God called, Pentecost. Starting after the High Sabbath, on Thursday, they counted seven weekly Sabbaths. That would mean the Sabbath following the High Sabbath would the first Sabbath of the seven they had to count.

Luke 24:1 Now on the first Sabbath, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.

Hi Scuba and Samie

Thanks for these clear explanations.

I just want to correct (IMHO) the last 4 lines as to the count to Pentecost.

Jews count 7 weeks (shabooah = Strongs H7620) =( 1 + 7 x 7) days from Passover High Sabbath (say on a Thursday).

Pentecost means 50.  How does this add up to 50.

Shaboowah are periods like a week except from one day of the week to the same day of the next week e.g.. Thurs to Thurs.

When you count the first day in, from Thurs to Thurs is 8 days.  If the count started on Thurs, it ended 50 days later on Thurs.

Thus the weekly sabbath has NOTHING to do with this count,

For this reason I believe Christ was resurrected at the end of the weekly Sabbath, but was seen by the women risen early Sun morning.  Thus I feel it IS a correct translation "early, the first day of the week".

[Scuba]

23 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

Hi Scuba and Samie

Thanks for these clear explanations.

I just want to correct (IMHO) the last 4 lines as to the count to Pentecost.

Jews count 7 weeks (shabooah = Strongs H7620) =( 1 + 7 x 7) days from Passover High Sabbath (say on a Thursday).

Pentecost means 50.  How does this add up to 50.

Shaboowah are periods like a week except from one day of the week to the same day of the next week e.g.. Thurs to Thurs.

When you count the first day in, from Thurs to Thurs is 8 days.  If the count started on Thurs, it ended 50 days later on Thurs.

Thus the weekly sabbath has NOTHING to do with this count,

For this reason I believe Christ was resurrected at the end of the weekly Sabbath, but was seen by the women risen early Sun morning.  Thus I feel it IS a correct translation "early, the first day of the week".

God tells His people in Leviticus to count 7 Sabbaths and then add a day. He tells them to start counting after the High Sabbath on Thursday. That means the first Sabbath they counted would be the one in Luke 23:56. Seven weekly Sabbaths equals 49 days plus add one day equals 50 days.

[Wingnut]

4 minutes ago, Scuba said:

God tells His people in Leviticus to count 7 Sabbaths and then add a day. He tells them to start counting after the High Sabbath on Thursday. That means the first Sabbath they counted would be the one in Luke 23:56. Seven weekly Sabbaths equals 49 days plus add one day equals 50 days.

Look at Deut 16:9.  They NEVER count sabbaths, they count weeks.

Deuteronomy 16:9

9 Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn.

The Churches of God made this mistake.  They confused "shabuah" with "shabbath"  (Strongs H7676).  No Jews count Sabbaths.  

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

Pentecost means 50.  How does this add up to 50.

Shaboowah are periods like a week except from one day of the week to the same day of the next week e.g.. Thurs to Thurs.

When you count the first day in, from Thurs to Thurs is 8 days.  If the count started on Thurs, it ended 50 days later on Thurs.

Thus the weekly sabbath has NOTHING to do with this count,

We need to review Leviticus:

Leviticus 23:15-16   ¹⁵ And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:  ¹⁶ Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

 

The 50-day count is quite clear to me. 7 Sabbaths cover 49 days. Add to that the morrow after the 7th Sabbath, and you have 50 days.

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

For this reason I believe Christ was resurrected at the end of the weekly Sabbath, but was seen by the women risen early Sun morning.  Thus I feel it IS a correct translation "early, the first day of the week".

Mark says Jesus resurrected on "prwi> prw,th| sabba,tou" which literally is "early morning of the chief Sabbath". 

I have yet to find in Scriptures where "prwi>" refers to "end of day".  Here are the 12 verses in the NT that uses the word "prwi>".  Not one of these verses applied "prwi>" to "end of day" as in "end of the Sabbath". 

Matt 16:3; 20:1; 21:18; Mark 1:35; 11:20; 13:35; 15:1; 16:2, 9; John 18:28; 20:1; Acts 28:23

[Scuba]

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

Look at Deut 16:9.  They NEVER count sabbaths, they count weeks.

Deuteronomy 16:9

9 Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn.

The Churches of God made this mistake.  They confused "shabuah" with "shabbath"  (Strongs H7676).  No Jews count Sabbaths.  

During the times of Jesus and before they used the new moons to determine the months and they would use the weekly Sabbaths to determine the weeks. If I wanted to meet with you the second week of the month I would say to you,  "I'll meet you on the second Sabbath after the first". This is seen in Luke 6:1. In other words, there are four Sabbaths or four weeks between each new moon. If I were to say there weeks I could also day three Sabbaths because they mean the same thing. 

[Wingnut]

2 hours ago, Scuba said:

During the times of Jesus and before they used the new moons to determine the months and they would use the weekly Sabbaths to determine the weeks. If I wanted to meet with you the second week of the month I would say to you,  "I'll meet you on the second Sabbath after the first". This is seen in Luke 6:1. In other words, there are four Sabbaths or four weeks between each new moon. If I were to say there weeks I could also day three Sabbaths because they mean the same thing. 

Lets suppose you decided to keep Passover and Pentecost today and you had no Jew or internet, only the Bible.

Tell me how you would know the day of Passover, count 50 and get to Pentecost.

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Look at Deut 16:9.  They NEVER count sabbaths, they count weeks.

Deuteronomy 16:9

9 Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn.

The Churches of God made this mistake.  They confused "shabuah" with "shabbath"  (Strongs H7676).  No Jews count Sabbaths.  

The day they began to "sickle" was "firstfruits" AFTER the high priest had offered the "wave sheaf".  

In the time of Christ, there was a dispute concerning the day for the presentation of the “Firstfruits.”  The 1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is called “a holy convocation” upon which “no customary work” was to be done.   In other words - “a sabbath” (Lev 23:7).   The Pharisees taught  that “the day after the sabbath” of the Leviticus 23:15 commandment, must be the 16th day of Adar - the day immediately following the Passover.  

        The Sadducees however believed that “the sabbath” meant the 7th day Sabbath.  The “day after” would be Sunday - the “first day of the week.”  The Sadducees celebrated the “firstfruits” on the “day after” the first 7th Day Sabbath which followed Passover - on Sunday.
 
    NOTICE!!  If The First Day of Unleavened Bread fell ON a 7th Day Sabbath in the year Christ died, then the Pharisees and the Sadducees would have been in agreement regarding the celebration of the Firstfruits offering.  For the Pharisees, it would have been the day following the Feast of Unleavened Bread.   For the Sadducees it would have been the first Sunday which followed  The Feast of Unleavened Bread.  Fifty days later, the Pharisees and the Sadducees would all have celebrated Pentecost (Shavuot) on the same day.  They would all have been at the Temple on the day when the Holy Spirit was poured out, and Peter preached with power.  
        NOTE:  God does have a sense of humor!

Joshua 5:10-12 “Now the children of Israel camped in Gilgal, and kept the Passover(killed the Passover lamb) on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight on the plains of Jericho.   And they ate of the produce of the land [Firstfruits] on the day after the Passover [Feast of Unleavened Bread] [the 16th of Adar), unleavened bread and parched grain, on the very same day. Then the manna ceased on the day after they had eaten the produce of the land; and the children of Israel no longer had manna, but they ate the food of the land of Canaan that year.”  

          The following is taken from First Fruits of Zion magazine archives.  The full article is available on the web at ffoz.org.  The section quoted concerns the counting of the omer, that is, the period from the offering of the firstfruits (which was called the omer) to the festival of  Pentecost/Shavuot, 50 days later.  “Two important, first-century eye-witnesses and contemporaries of the Apostles bring important testimony. Flavius Josephus, who was himself a member of the Temple priesthood, reports in Antiquities 3:10.5-6, ‘On the second day of Unleavened Bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month [Nissan/Adar], they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day they do not touch them.’"

        Philo, another First Century, Jewish eyewitness reports, ‘There is also a festival on the day of the Passover Feast, which succeeds the first day, and this is named the sheaf [omer], from what takes place on it; for the sheaf is brought to the altar as a first fruit...’  (Philo, Special Laws 2:29 150) Philo and Josephus agree that the ritual was practiced in accordance with the reckoning of the Pharisees.  

        In addition, the Greek Septuagint version of the Torah (a version employed fairly extensively by the first-century believers) makes the matter explicit by translating Leviticus 23:11 as, ‘And he shall lift up the sheaf of the Lord, to be accepted for you.  On the morrow of the first day the priest shall lift it up. ‘The term ‘morrow of the first day’ can only be understood in accordance with the traditional Pharisaic reckoning.”  

        In the Greek Septuagint, Apostolic Bible, English translation, Leviticus 23:15 is translated, “And you shall count to yourselves from the next day of the Sabbaths, from the day which ever you should bring the sheaf of the increase offering...” 

The word is “Sabbaths” - plural, signifying two Sabbaths - Feast of Unleavened Bread AND the 7th Day Sabbath.  The First Fruits would then ALWAYS be offered on a Sunday, and therefore Pentecost would ALWAYS fall on a Sunday, 50 days later.

    NOTE: An absolute “fit” is only necessary, in the year of fulfillment.  I think it significant that Pharisee and Sadducee were in agreement in the year - when prophecy was fulfilled perfectly!

Rachel Cory,  prophecyviewpoint.com,  from a study titled "Three Days and Three Nights"

[Gregory Matthews]

My personal belief follows the traditional teaching that has Christ's death on the day we now call Friday and his resurrection on the day that we call Sunday.  In addition, I disagree with Rachel (8thd Day Priest) on a number of issues.

However, without getting into that, Rachel is illustrating a number of issues related to the actual date for the death of Christ:

1) In the time of Christ, Passover was celebrated under two (2) different calendars.

2) The Biblical word "Sabbath" can refer to the 7-day weekly Sabbath and it can refer to a special feast day such as Passover.

These and other issues make it impossible to determine with certainty the exact year of Christ's death.  This affects other calculations.

Again, I believe in the traditional Friday/Sunday belief.  I think that this has the best support.

 

[Scuba]

11 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

My personal belief follows the traditional teaching that has Christ's death on the day we now call Friday and his resurrection on the day that we call Sunday.  In addition, I disagree with Rachel (8thd Day Priest) on a number of issues.

However, without getting into that, Rachel is illustrating a number of issues related to the actual date for the death of Christ:

1) In the time of Christ, Passover was celebrated under two (2) different calendars.

2) The Biblical word "Sabbath" can refer to the 7-day weekly Sabbath and it can refer to a special feast day such as Passover.

These and other issues make it impossible to determine with certainty the exact year of Christ's death.  This affects other calculations.

Again, I believe in the traditional Friday/Sunday belief.  I think that this has the best support.

 

There was a day between the two Sabbaths in which Mary bought the spices. This could not happen with a Friday crucifixion and a Sunday resurrection. 

[Wingnut]

The omer/wavesheath was waved "mi moochera shabbat" or on the Sabbath morrow.

This was wrongly translated in the KJV "on the morrow AFTER (added) the Sabbath".

My belief is that the omer SHOULD be waved on the 15th or Passover sabbath morning.

The sickle is put to the sheaf which is "raised from the earth" at 3rd hour or 9am, the exact time Christ was crucified.

Jews rebelled against  work on the Sabbath morning and added "AFTER".

In Luke 2 when the disciples were going through grain fields eating corn, it was the exact morning to wave the sheaf, but Pharisees called it unlawful.

From wave sheaf at 9am one begins count.  7 shabbatoun or weeks later on same day of week as wave sheaf was Pentecost.

Pentecost is only FULLY COME at 3rd hour or 9am, the exact time the Holy Spirit came.

This most likely was NOT the official Pentecost of the Jews, but folks from all around had come to Jerusalem

Pentecost in Acts did not take place in the temple where official celebrations probably occurred a day later (and too late).

[Samie]

4 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

These and other issues make it impossible to determine with certainty the exact year of Christ's death.  This affects other calculations.

John, an eye witness, records 3 Passovers that transpired from the baptism of Jesus to His crucifixion, two of which, the first and the last, He was clearly at Jerusalem. The first one was AFTER His baptism and the last one just BEFORE He was crucified.

The first Passover of the 3 Passovers could not have occurred on the same year Jesus was baptized. The reason is simple. Passover is on the evening after sunset of the 14th day of the first month of the Jewish religious calendar.  Recall that Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness after His baptism.  Since we are speaking of the Passover AFTER His baptism, if He was baptized say on the first day of the month of year X, Passover that year will be on the evening of the 14th of that same month, and Jesus will still be in the wilderness of temptation and could not have gone to Cana for His first recorded miracle and then on to Jerusalem to drive out the sellers out of the temple just before Passover.  see John 2:1-15.

That I think establishes the fact that the first Passover occurred the year AFTER He was baptized.

To establish the year, Luke tells us Jesus was baptized on the 15th year of reign of Tiberius (see Luke 3:1, 21, 22).  History attests that Tiberius started his reign in 14 AD, the 1st year of his reign.  Counting the 1st year from 14 AD, the 15th year is 28 AD.  The first Passover of the 3 Passovers that John recorded was the Passover in 29 AD. The second one in 30 AD. And the last one just before He was crucified, in 31 AD.

Therefore, our Lord was crucified in 31 AD.

Next post:  Date of His crucifixion, month and date in 31 AD.

[Scuba]

6 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Lets suppose you decided to keep Passover and Pentecost today and you had no Jew or internet, only the Bible.

Tell me how you would know the day of Passover, count 50 and get to Pentecost.

If you really need to figure out when the feast days occur all you would need to do is learn which month God uses to begin the year. This is found in Exodus 12:2. It's the time of the Aviv, Deuteronomy 16:1. If you had the time you could figure it out using God's calendar found in the Scriptures and creation.

[Samie]

Date of our Lord's Crucifixion, month and date in 31 AD.      

Passover is a full moon feast.  This is why God Who created the sun, the earth and the moon, instructed that Passover meal be eaten in the evening after sunset of the 14^th day of the first month of the Hebrew luni-solar calendar.  God so designed the sun, earth and moon that the average period for one lunar cycle, that is from new moon to the next new moon, is on the average 29 days 12 hours and 44 minutes.  One half of this is the period from new moon to full moon. This is roughly 14 days 18 hours and 22 minutes. This is why after sunset on the 14^th of the month in a luni-solar calendar is always a full moon.  

What a wonderful Creator. He created His silent witnesses in the firmament above, to guide us to the day and month and year when His Son was crucified! He so designed the sun, earth and moon allowing Passover to be celebrated in the evening after sunset of the 14^th of the first month, on a full moon night:

 

^NKJ Psalm 81:3-5   ³ Blow the trumpet at the time of the New Moon, At the full moon, on our solemn feast day.  ⁴ For this is a statute for Israel, A law of the God of Jacob.  ⁵ This He established in Joseph as a testimony, When He went throughout the land of Egypt, Where I heard a language I did not understand.

Christ ate Passover with His disciples on the same night He was arrested. He celebrated that Passover a day ahead of the Jewish national celebration.  The day that immediately followed, He was crucified.  So on what date was that?

Passover is a spring festival celebrated in the month Abib or Nisan.  Abib is a term used to describe the stage of ripening of barley where at the time of Passover is almost ready for harvest.  This explains why just about 5 days before Passover, at the time of the outpouring in Egypt of the plague of hail, the barley was smitten while the wheat was spared because it ripens late.

 

Exodus 9:31-32   ³¹ And the flax and the barley was smitten: for the barley was in the ear, and the flax was bolled.  ³² But the wheat and the rie were not smitten: for they were not grown up.

 The word “ear” in v31 is from the Hebrew bybia' (Abib). Ripening of barley usually occurs not earlier than the spring equinox.  The spring or vernal equinox is an imaginary point in the sky where the sun crosses the celestial equator in her journey from the south to the northern hemisphere. It occurs not earlier than March 19 nor later than Mar 21. Passover, being a full moon festival, is always on the first full moon AFTER the vernal equinox.

Unlike new moon sightings, full moon occurrences can now be easily determined with precision forward or backward in time.  To determine the date of Christ’s crucifixion, all we have to do is trace back the first full moon after the spring equinox in 31 AD.  That full moon was when Jesus ate Passover with His disciples that same night He was arrested.  He was crucified the daytime that came, when the Jews were still preparing for their national celebration of Passover.  Chances are, the official horizon observer for crescent sightings in Jerusalem may have first observed the young crescent late by a day, thus causing the start of the new month late by a day likewise.

But Jesus through Whom the Father created the sun, earth and moon, can NEVER lose track of when full moon will occur that paschal week. And He Who said He came to fulfill the Law, which obviously includes the law on when Passover is to be celebrated, ate Passover with His disciples on the dot: on a full moon night. 

The first full moon after the spring equinox was on March 27, 31 AD, Tuesday.  Jesus was crucified Wednesday, March 28, 31 AD.

(Note: I leave it to the reader to verify the date of the full moon occurrence. But references will be provided, if requested)

Next post:  The Date of the Lord’s Resurrection.

[Wingnut]

2 hours ago, Scuba said:

If you really need to figure out when the feast days occur all you would need to do is learn which month God uses to begin the year. This is found in Exodus 12:2. It's the time of the Aviv, Deuteronomy 16:1. If you had the time you could figure it out using God's calendar found in the Scriptures and creation.

That is to me like saying, if you want to win at tennis, just make sure the ball always lands on the other side of the net.

That is what a non-player would say.  

I doubt you could determine when the next Hebrew month begins.  Do it if you can and tell me.  Then tell me when the next 15th day of a Hebrew month begins.  Then count 50 from the correct day one should begin the count from, in the middle of the month and tell me when the count ends.  I know you could not do it.  Use whatever means you like.

[phkrause]

15 hours ago, Scuba said:

Luke 24:1 Now on the first Sabbath, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.

What Bible are you getting this from??

Here's how the CJB reads, starting with Luke 23:

54 It was Preparation Day, and a Shabbat was about to begin.

55 The women who had come with Yeshua from the Galil followed; they saw the tomb and how his body was placed in it.

56 Then they went back home to prepare spices and ointments. On Shabbat the women rested, in obedience to the commandment;

1 but the next day, while it was still very early, they took the spices they had prepared, went to the tomb,

2 and found the stone rolled away from the tomb!

[Wingnut]

18 minutes ago, Samie said:

Date of our Lord's Crucifixion, month and date in 31 AD.      

Passover is a full moon feast.  This is why God Who created the sun, the earth and the moon, instructed that Passover meal be eaten in the evening after sunset of the 14^th day of the first month of the Hebrew luni-solar calendar.  God so designed the sun, earth and moon that the average period for one lunar cycle, that is from new moon to the next new moon, is on the average 29 days 12 hours and 44 minutes.  One half of this is the period from new moon to full moon. This is roughly 14 days 18 hours and 22 minutes. This is why after sunset on the 14^th of the month in a luni-solar calendar is always a full moon.  

What a wonderful Creator. He created His silent witnesses in the firmament above, to guide us to the day and month and year when His Son was crucified! He so designed the sun, earth and moon allowing Passover to be celebrated in the evening after sunset of the 14^th of the first month, on a full moon night:

 

^NKJ Psalm 81:3-5   ³ Blow the trumpet at the time of the New Moon, At the full moon, on our solemn feast day.  ⁴ For this is a statute for Israel, A law of the God of Jacob.  ⁵ This He established in Joseph as a testimony, When He went throughout the land of Egypt, Where I heard a language I did not understand.

Christ ate Passover with His disciples on the same night He was arrested. He celebrated that Passover a day ahead of the Jewish national celebration.  The day that immediately followed, He was crucified.  So on what date was that?

Passover is a spring festival celebrated in the month Abib or Nisan.  Abib is a term used to describe the stage of ripening of barley where at the time of Passover is almost ready for harvest.  This explains why just about 5 days before Passover, at the time of the outpouring in Egypt of the plague of hail, the barley was smitten while the wheat was spared because it ripens late.

 

Exodus 9:31-32   ³¹ And the flax and the barley was smitten: for the barley was in the ear, and the flax was bolled.  ³² But the wheat and the rie were not smitten: for they were not grown up.

 The word “ear” in v31 is from the Hebrew bybia' (Abib). Ripening of barley usually occurs not earlier than the spring equinox.  The spring or vernal equinox is an imaginary point in the sky where the sun crosses the celestial equator in her journey from the south to the northern hemisphere. It occurs not earlier than March 19 nor later than Mar 21. Passover, being a full moon festival, is always on the first full moon AFTER the vernal equinox.

Unlike new moon sightings, full moon occurrences can now be easily determined with precision forward or backward in time.  To determine the date of Christ’s crucifixion, all we have to do is trace back the first full moon after the spring equinox in 31 AD.  That full moon was when Jesus ate Passover with His disciples that same night He was arrested.  He was crucified the daytime that came, when the Jews were still preparing for their national celebration of Passover.  Chances are, the official horizon observer for crescent sightings in Jerusalem may have first observed the young crescent late by a day, thus causing the start of the new month late by a day likewise.

But Jesus through Whom the Father created the sun, earth and moon, can NEVER lose track of when full moon will occur that paschal week. And He Who said He came to fulfill the Law, which obviously includes the law on when Passover is to be celebrated, ate Passover with His disciples on the dot: on a full moon night. 

The first full moon after the spring equinox was on March 27, 31 AD, Tuesday.  Jesus was crucified Wednesday, March 28, 31 AD.

(Note: I leave it to the reader to verify the date of the full moon occurrence. But references will be provided, if requested)

Next post:  The Date of the Lord’s Resurrection.

You are absolutely spot on.  Well done!!!

I have been around this kind of calendar discussion a long time, and rarely have I ever seen anyone get it right.  You are the first, and I am really impressed.

 

[Samie]

The Date of our Lord’s Resurrection.

 Having determined the date when our Lord was crucified, the date of His resurrection should not prove difficult. For my position, since I have already posted that Jesus was crucified Wednesday March 28, 31 AD, and resurrected early morning Saturday, it is obvious that the date for His resurrection is March 31, 31 AD.

However, it is admitted and it cannot be denied that there are a number of different phrases (at least 4) that describe the length of time that elapsed from the time He was crucified to the time He rose from the grave. 

This easily translates to the scenario that to arrive at when our Lord resurrected, is not a simple matter of arbitrarily choosing one or two of the different phrases (the ones that should fit one’s preconception), add them to when He was crucified, and presto, arrive at the correct resurrection date.

What I am saying is, there has to be a balanced appreciation of the biblical phrases, apply each of the FOUR (4) different phrases, and see whether the period used matches all of the 4.  This had to be the case, otherwise the position arrived at is correct with respect to one or two phrases, but not, with the other two or three. This is needed since the FOUR (4) different phrases all describe the same period of time: from crucifixion to resurrection.

Here are the FOUR (4) different phrases:

 

1.    3 days and 3 nights (Matt 12:40)

2.    in three days (John 2:19-21)

3.    after three days (Matt. 27:63; Mk. 8:31) and

4.    third day (Matt. 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; 27:64; Mk. 9:31; 10:34; Lk. 9:22; 13:32; 18:33;
24:7, 21, 46)

Whatever crucifixion and resurrection dates one believes in, must be brought before the bar of these FOUR (4) different phrases used in Scriptures.  I leave it up to holders of other periods to see for themselves whether what they believe in passes the FOUR (4) Way Test (to borrow the term from Rotary International).

We will now apply this 4-way-test to my position where Jesus was crucified Wednesday and resurrected early morning Saturday before sunrise.

1.     3 days and 3 nights.

 Daytime Wednesday – day 1

Nighttime Wednesday – night 1

Daytime Thursday – day 2

Nighttime Thursday – night 2

Daytime Friday – day 3

Nighttime Friday to before sunrise Saturday – night 3

Evaluation: Passed.

 

2.     In 3 days

 The Bible defines a day as composed of a nighttime part and a daytime part.  This simply translates to 3 days and 3 nights or 3 nights and 3 days.  The Wednesday Crucifixion coupled with early morning Saturday resurrection covers 3 daytime parts and 3 nighttime parts.

Evaluation: Passed.

 

3.     After 3 days

From Wednesday,  after one day from Wednesday brings us to Thursday, after two days from Wednesday brings us to Friday, after 3 days from Wednesday brings us to Saturday.

Evaluation:  Passed

 

4.     Third day

So how can Saturday be the 3^rd day from Wednesday?  In the Bible, the phrase “third day” can be used to mean “after 3 days”.  I did not invent this.  This is in the Bible:

               ^KJV 2 Chronicles 10:5   ⁵ And he said unto them, Come again unto me after three days. And the people departed.

 

^KJV 2 Chronicles 10:12 So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day, as the king bade, saying, Come again to me on the third day.

 Evaluation: Passed.

Samie is now ready to answer objections, if any.