EGW, the filter for truth...

[Wingnut]

My explanation requires drawing a one-to-one comparison between Christ's and Jonah's experience.

Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale .......Christ was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the earth (tomb)

The count started when Jonah was swallowed, and ended when he was vomited out..... The count started when Jesus was placed in the tomb (at sunset) and ended when He left the tomb (sunset).

 

Wed night = night 1

Thursday day = day 1

Thursday night = night 2

Friday day = day 2

Friday night = night 3

Saturday day = day 3

Now we are at Saturday sunset which is ON the third day, and AFTER three days since sunset is a moment in time.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

The problems present in the calendar at the time of Christ have not been responded to.

As I have said on several occasions in CA:  When Christ lived, Passover was celebrated by two different calendars depending upon the Jewish sect that one belonged to.

So, which one do you chose?

There are other issues present.  The bottom line is that one cannot clearly establish the date for Christ's death.

One simply has to take what one believes to be the best evidence.  But, after that has been done, one should be willing to admit that the date is uncertain.

 

 

 

 

[Wingnut]

Samie

One reason I prefer Wed sunset to Sat sunset is because it is EXACTLY 3 days and 3 nights or 72 hours.

There are no part days.

I think your interpretation of "first day of the week" to mean "first part of the Sabbath" has led you astray as to the resurrection time.

 

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Wingnut said:

Samie

One reason I prefer Wed sunset to Sat sunset is because it is EXACTLY 3 days and 3 nights or 72 hours.

There are no part days.

I think your interpretation of "first day of the week" to mean "first part of the Sabbath" has led you astray as to the resurrection time.

Thank you for the observation.  I am ready to accept my error if shown.  I need to be first convinced by Scriptural evidence that the Greek phrase "prwi> prw,th| sabba,tou" cannot be taken to mean "early morning of the chief Sabbath".

[Samie]

My position that Jesus rose from the tomb early Saturday morning before sunrise is based upon the one and only verse in the whole of Scriptures that EXPLICITLY tells us when He resurrected.  And that's Mark 16:9 in Greek Scriptures.  All other resurrection-related verses simply talks about some of the followers of our Lord as having found an already empty tomb when they arrived at the sepulcher.

Unless shown from the strength of biblical evidence that my understanding of the phrase "prwi> prw,th| sabba,tou" as being literally "early morning of the chief sabbath" is flawed, it would be hard for me to go with the flow.

[Wingnut]

Samie

I am no Greek scholar.  Concerning what you wrote in a prior post which I quote below...

Your last sentence concerning  "chief" Sabbath is wrong.  God is not grading Sabbaths.

And I don't believe every expert Greek translator got it wrong.  When "first" is combined with "sabbath" in the Greek it reads "first [day] of the week".

It is not prioritising between weekly and annual sabbaths.

Samie wrote

“prwi> prw,th| sabba,tou” may also be translated into “early morning of the chief Sabbath”.  Why chief Sabbath? Because in that paschal week their occurred both ceremonial and weekly Sabbaths.  Obviously, between a ceremonial and the weekly Sabbath, the weekly Sabbath is the chief since the Lord calls it “my Sabbath”, while He calls the ceremonial Sabbaths as “your Sabbaths”.

Luke 23

54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

 

Luke 24King James Version (KJV)

24 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.

3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

If the women were at pains to rest on the Sabbath, how could they have come to the tomb to embalm Him early on Saturday morning.  This would break the Sabbath?  If they came early Sunday morning, this makes perfect sense since this is a work day.

 

 

 

[Samie]

25 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

Samie

I am no Greek scholar.  Concerning what you wrote in a prior post which I quote below...

Your last sentence concerning  "chief" Sabbath is wrong.  God is not grading Sabbaths.

And I don't believe every expert Greek translator got it wrong.  When "first" is combined with "sabbath" in the Greek it reads "first [day] of the week".

I have no quarrel against whoever wrote the rule that "When "first" is combined with "sabbath" in the Greek it reads "first [day] of the week". That's his own rule. I want a Biblical basis.  Anybody who has to defend Sunday-keeping will write a rule that will do the defense for him folding his hands.

I want to be shown from Scriptures where I have erred, to quote Luther.  The Greeks have their own word for "week", and it is not "sabbaton".  I am not seeing a good reason why would the gospel writers use 'sabbaton' when they really meant "hebdomos" (week).

[Samie]

35 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

If the women were at pains to rest on the Sabbath, how could they have come to the tomb to embalm Him early on Saturday morning.  This would break the Sabbath?  If they came early Sunday morning, this makes perfect sense since this is a work day.

Even if I were to allow the position that the women came early Sunday morning and found the empty tomb, that does not still negate my position He resurrected early Saturday morning, making the tomb already empty when they arrived Sunday morning.

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The problems present in the calendar at the time of Christ have not been responded to.

As I have said on several occasions in CA:  When Christ lived, Passover was celebrated by two different calendars depending upon the Jewish sect that one belonged to.

So, which one do you chose?

There are other issues present.  The bottom line is that one cannot clearly establish the date for Christ's death.

One simply has to take what one believes to be the best evidence.  But, after that has been done, one should be willing to admit that the date is uncertain.

I am not sure if I really understood what you mean. My comment below will tell you if I did.

Full moon occurrences are not set by calendars, which simply records the when of those occurrences based upon the system of reckoning each calendar uses.  But the event itself - the full moon - happened in one unique unit of time. Different calendars may have different dates for this same event, yet they can not create multiple events out of the single event in question.

My point is, the date in my reckoning is based on the current Gregorian calendar. If one needs to transpose that into the current luni-solar calendar of the Jews, that calendar will arrive at a date whose figures will be different, yet describing the same full moon, the same event, that happened in a unique chunk in human time. 

The same reasoning applies if the current Gregorian calendar date will be transposed to the corresponding dates in the two different calendars used during Jesus' time.  The truth remains that Jesus ate Passover on a unique full moon night, the same full moon described to have occurred on a date in one calendar but corresponds to a different date figure in another calendar.

And using our current Gregorian calendar, that date is March 27, 31 AD. This same date will acquire an entirely different set of figures when transposed into another calendar.  Yet they describe the same unique event that happened in a unique chunk of time.

[Wingnut]

8 minutes ago, Samie said:

I am not sure if I really understood what you mean. My comment below will tell you if I did.

Full moon occurrences are not set by calendars, which simply records the when of those occurrences based upon the system of reckoning each calendar uses.  But the event itself - the full moon - happened in one unique unit of time. Different calendars may have different dates for this same event, yet they can not create multiple events out of the single event in question.

My point is, the date in my reckoning is based on the current Gregorian calendar. If one needs to transpose that into the current luni-solar calendar of the Jews, that calendar will arrive at a date whose figures will be different, yet describing the same full moon, the same event, that happened in a unique chunk in human time. 

The same reasoning applies if the current Gregorian calendar date will be transposed to the corresponding dates in the two different calendars used during Jesus' time.  The truth remains that Jesus ate Passover on a unique full moon night, the same full moon described to have occurred on a date in one calendar but corresponds to a different date figure in another calendar.

And using our current Gregorian calendar, that date is March 27, 31 AD. This same date will acquire an entirely different set of figures when transposed into another calendar.  Yet they describe the same unique event that happened in a unique chunk of time.

I want to know why you say Christ kept Passover on the night of the full moon.  I believe you are 100% correct in saying this.

But do you have any proof other than that it was on the eve of the 15th - which should be around full moon time?

If anyone looks at the moon when it is nearly full, there generally are at least two nights when the moon seems to be absolutely full.  Which one does one choose?

[Wingnut]

Samie wrote

“prwi> prw,th| sabba,tou” may also be translated into “early morning of the chief Sabbath”.  Why chief Sabbath? Because in that paschal week their occurred both ceremonial and weekly Sabbaths.  Obviously, between a ceremonial and the weekly Sabbath, the weekly Sabbath is the chief since the Lord calls it “my Sabbath”, while He calls the ceremonial Sabbaths as “your Sabbaths”.

 

God NEVER calls his annual feast days "your Sabbaths".  Sunday keeping would qualify as "your Sabbaths".

This is what God says of His feast Sabbaths.

 

Lev 23:1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

4 These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.

 

So your problem is to explain away the "first" in "first day of the week".

[Samie]

4 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

I want to know why you say Christ kept Passover on the night of the full moon.  I believe you are 100% correct in saying this.

But do you have any proof other than that it was on the eve of the 15th - which should be around full moon time?

Actually, I am not inclined to rely on luni-solar calendar dates in use during Jesus' time, since, as Gregory ably pointed out, there were two different calendars, and could have exhibited two different dates for the same full moon.

As to the other reason why I say Jesus kept Passover on the night of the full moon, I have mentioned in my post that Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law and that obviously includes the law on when Passover is to be kept.  Here’s the instructions:

Numbers 9:2-3   ² "Let the children of Israel keep the Passover at its appointed time.  ³ "On the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight, you shall keep it at its appointed time. According to all its rites and ceremonies you shall keep it."

 And that appointed time is the full moon:

 

^NKJ Psalm 81:3-5   ³ Blow the trumpet at the time of the New Moon, At the full moon, on our solemn feast day.  ⁴ For this is a statute for Israel, A law of the God of Jacob.  ⁵ This He established in Joseph as a testimony, When He went throughout the land of Egypt, Where I heard a language I did not understand.

 

[Samie]

7 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

God NEVER calls his annual feast days "your Sabbaths".  Sunday keeping would qualify as "your Sabbaths".

God called the weekly Sabbath as "the Sabbath of the Lord"

^KJV Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God . . .

Yom Kippur is the most solemn of all Hebrew ceremonies, and it is a Sabbath. God referred to it when instructing Moses as “your Sabbath”.

^KJV Leviticus 23:32   ³² It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

[Wingnut]

15 minutes ago, Samie said:

God called the weekly Sabbath as "the Sabbath of the Lord"

^KJV Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God . . .

Yom Kippur is the most solemn of all Hebrew ceremonies, and it is a Sabbath. God referred to it when instructing Moses as “your Sabbath”.

^KJV Leviticus 23:32   ³² It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

There is no "your" in the Hebrew.  I checked it out on bible hub.  http://biblehub.com/text/leviticus/23-32.htm

It is just telling us in general that all sabbaths are kept from even to even.

It does say "It shall be unto you a sabbath..." but that is only saying that "you" must keep it.  This is not derogatory at all.

If I asked you "How was YOUR Sabbath?" you would never jump to a conclusion that I meant anything but the Sabbath of the Lord or Saturday.

[Samie]

17 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

So your problem is to explain away the "first" in "first day of the week".

Using the Greek Scriptures, let's take one example from the 8 first day of the week verses:

     ^KJV Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

 

       ^BGT Mark 16:2 kai. li,an prwi> th/| mia/| tw/n sabba,twn e;rcontai evpi. to. mnhmei/on avnatei,lantoj tou/ h`li,ouÅ

The English phrase “first day of the week” was translated from the Greek “mia/| tw/n sabba,twn”.  Using the translation of these same group of translators, let us take a similar phrase which they themselves translated, this time with a different noun:

 

^KJV Mark 14:66  And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest:

 

^BGT Mark 14:66 Kai. o;ntoj tou/ Pe,trou ka,tw evn th/| auvlh/| e;rcetai mi,a tw/n paidiskw/n tou/ avrciere,wj

 Notice that the phrase “mi,a tw/n paidiskw/n”  is similar to the phrase mia/| tw/n sabba,twn .  The only difference is in the noun.  If the phrase mi,a tw/n paidiskw/n can be translated into  one of the maids, I think there is no sensible reason that exists why we cannot correctly translate mia/| tw/n sabba,twn into “one of the Sabbaths”.

Note that sabba,twn is plural; the singular form is sabba,tou.  This simply tells us that there was more than one sabbath that paschal week.

[Samie]

28 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

There is no "your" in the Hebrew.  I checked it out on bible hub.  http://biblehub.com/text/leviticus/23-32.htm

Here’s what that cite provided:

 

שַׁבַּתְּכֶֽם׃    your Sabbath

 You may have just overlooked the suffix  םכֶֽ (kem) after the  tB'v; (shabbath).  That suffix corresponds to “your”.

[Scuba]

19 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Lets suppose you decided to keep Passover and Pentecost today and you had no Jew or internet, only the Bible.

Tell me how you would know the day of Passover, count 50 and get to Pentecost.

 

[Scuba]

10 hours ago, Wingnut said:

That is to me like saying, if you want to win at tennis, just make sure the ball always lands on the other side of the net.

That is what a non-player would say.  

I doubt you could determine when the next Hebrew month begins.  Do it if you can and tell me.  Then tell me when the next 15th day of a Hebrew month begins.  Then count 50 from the correct day one should begin the count from, in the middle of the month and tell me when the count ends.  I know you could not do it.  Use whatever means you like.

No...If you wanted to win at tennis I would say, learn the game, practice real hard and go out there and do your best. If you want to know the timing of God's holy days with only the Bible I would say, ask God to guide you, study real hard and do your best to use the tools that God has given us to know His will. Israel did it and they had no laptops or internet. They had God's word just like we do.

[Scuba]

10 hours ago, phkrause said:

What Bible are you getting this from??

Here's how the CJB reads, starting with Luke 23:

54 It was Preparation Day, and a Shabbat was about to begin.

55 The women who had come with Yeshua from the Galil followed; they saw the tomb and how his body was placed in it.

56 Then they went back home to prepare spices and ointments. On Shabbat the women rested, in obedience to the commandment;

1 but the next day, while it was still very early, they took the spices they had prepared, went to the tomb,

2 and found the stone rolled away from the tomb!

The words, (day of the week) are not in the original language. The word that should be there is the word, (Sabbath) so it should read like this, (On the first Sabbath). Why was it called the first Sabbath? Because they were counting the Sabbaths. That was the first Sabbath of seven Sabbaths they had to count in order to navigate to the next Feast Day 50 days later. Count seven Sabbaths and add a day to make 50 days. These are the instructions that God gave to them in Leviticus. New moons are used to determine which month they are in and weekly Sabbaths are used to determine which week they are in. If I said I wanted to meet with you on the second Sabbath after the first that would mean the second week on that particular month. Listen to this principle found in Luke.

Luke 6:1 Now it happened on the second Sabbath after the first that He went through the grain fields. And His disciples plucked the heads of grain and ate them,rubbing them in their hands.

It happened on the second Sabbath, after the first, means it was the second week of the new moon or the second week of that particular month.

Paul used the same principle of counting Sabbaths to determine the week. Listen.

1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first Sabbath let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.

Paul would be passing through their area on the first Sabbath of that particular month, in other words, the first week of that particular month. Paul would not say, "On September 7th I'll be passing through your area so put some things aside for me to take as I pass through".

[Wingnut]

1 hour ago, Scuba said:

No...If you wanted to win at tennis I would say, learn the game, practice real hard and go out there and do your best. If you want to know the timing of God's holy days with only the Bible I would say, ask God to guide you, study real hard and do your best to use the tools that God has given us to know His will. Israel did it and they had no laptops or internet. They had God's word just like we do.

God tells Israel to keep say Passover on 14th at even (start of 15th).

But nowhere that I have found is there a scripture telling them how to determine the new moon = new month.

Is it the astronomical new moon?

Is it the sighted crescent moon?

What if it's cloudy and one sees no crescent?

Can one then calculate a new moon?

That is why I issued the challenge to you or anyone to figure out, just from scripture alone (sola scriptura) how the beginning of the Hebrew month is calculated.

And if one choses any method, very often then, the 15th of the month IS NOT the full moon, but misses the full moon by a day.

Now you are left with the new challenge.  Should I keep the Feast of Passover on the full moon, or on the 15th?

And if Ps 81:3 takes priority - then it is quite possible the Jews were keeping the 15th Passover, while Christ was keeping the full moon Passover and these were one day apart.

[Samie]

24 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

And if Ps 81:3 takes priority - then it is quite possible the Jews were keeping the 15th Passover, while Christ was keeping the full moon Passover and these were one day apart.

Good observation, brother.

[Scuba]

 

Quote

 

God tells Israel to keep say Passover on 14th at even (start of 15th).

But nowhere that I have found is there a scripture telling them how to determine the new moon = new month.

Is it the astronomical new moon?

Is it the sighted crescent moon?

What if it's cloudy and one sees no crescent?

Can one then calculate a new moon?

That is why I issued the challenge to you or anyone to figure out, just from scripture alone (sola scriptura) how the beginning of the Hebrew month is calculated.

And if one choses any method, very often then, the 15th of the month IS NOT the full moon, but misses the full moon by a day.

Now you are left with the new challenge.  Should I keep the Feast of Passover on the full moon, or on the 15th?

And if Ps 81:3 takes priority - then it is quite possible the Jews were keeping the 15th Passover, while Christ was keeping the full moon Passover and these were one day apart.

 

There have been a lot of changes made to God's Law and timeline over the years that were not approved of by God, such as the seventh day Sabbath change to the first day. It is hard to pinpoint somethings in God's timeline but thank God we are not saved by these things. All these changes will be corrected in the millennium and those who love God and are truly seeking to know His will will be in the millennium where the the Law of God will be taught without corruption. There won't be a different denomination on every street corner. Kings and priests won't be corrupt and Satan will be out of the way. Praise God for that time but until then we all look through a glass darkly. 

[Wingnut]

14 minutes ago, Scuba said:

 

There have been a lot of changes made to God's Law and timeline over the years that were not approved of by God, such as the seventh day Sabbath change to the first day. It is hard to pinpoint somethings in God's timeline but thank God we are not saved by these things. All these changes will be corrected in the millennium and those who love God and are truly seeking to know His will will be in the millennium where the the Law of God will be taught without corruption. There won't be a different denomination on every street corner. Kings and priests won't be corrupt and Satan will be out of the way. Praise God for that time but until then we all look through a glass darkly. 

Absolutely correct Scuba.

Originally the months were 30 days long, hence prophetic years of 360 days and the circle being divided into 360 degrees.

But that changed and lunar months vary from 29 days to over 30 days.  This all adds to the confusion.

One feels there was some oral tradition which went along with this.  And that is a horrible thought.

[Wingnut]

41 minutes ago, Samie said:

Good observation, brother.

It was your pointing me to the scripture Ps 81:3.  Thanks for that Samie.

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Wingnut said:

It was your pointing me to the scripture Ps 81:3.  Thanks for that Samie.

You are welcome, my brother. All glory belongs to Him Who is the Source of all wisdom.