EGW, the filter for truth...

[Gregory Matthews]

Earlier phkrause made a reference to the CJB, which has been cited by others.  I assume that this was a reference to The Complete Jewish Bible.

The CJB is often cited by Christians who wish to understand Jewish thinking and look to the CJB as being an accurate statement of Jewish thought as it relates to the Bible, both the Old Testament and the New Testament.  It is even presented, sometimes, as being the work of a Rabbi.  All of this is in error.

In actual fact, it is the work of a Christian scholar who has personally studied the Jewish faith.  It should be pointed out that his actual degree came from a school  that was founded by a Christian religious group.  In his work, The CJB New Testament is an actual translation from the Greek that he made himself.  This was not based upon any Jewish work, and Jews would not be interested in translating the NT.  Even more interesting in that his Old Testaments is actually a paraphrased copy of a translation made by a valid Jewish group in 1917. The copyright for that translation had expired and therefore he was able to use it without either permission or payment of royalties.

I find it of interest  that he in his OT has paraphrased the Jewish work. This means that in any place where he did not like what the Jewish work actually said, he changed the wording to suit his own view.

The bottom line for me is that for me, The Complete Jewish Bible cannot be trusted to present Jewish thinking and it is often misused. 

The CJB is a translation of the Bible into English by Dr. David H. Stern. It consists of Dr. Stern's revised translation of the Old Testament (Tanakh) plus his original Jewish New Testament (B'rit Hadashah) translation in one volume. It was published in its entirety in 1998 by Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc.

The Old Testament translation is a paraphrase of the public domain 1917 Jewish Publication Society version. The New Testament section is Dr. Stern's original translation from the ancient Greek.

Dr. Stern's purpose for producing the Complete Jewish Bible was "to restore God’s Word to its original Jewish context and culture as well as be in easily read modern English."

 

[Gregory Matthews]

To add to the confusion, There was a Jewish religious calendar and a civil calendar.  The religious calendar, at least in theory,  had months of 30 days. The civil calendar differed.

 Originally the months were 30 days long, hence prophetic years of 360 days and the circle being divided into 360 degrees.

But that changed and lunar months vary from 29 days to over 30 days.  This all adds to the confusion.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

All in all, Dr. Stern's work (CJB) in my thinking reflects considerable bias.  Yes, in some cases it may be informed.  But, it is a bias.  For more on this see (from Wikipedia):

Stern's background includes surfing,^[1] plus a Master of Divinity degree from Fuller Theological Seminary, graduate work at the University of Judaism (now the American Jewish University), and a Ph.D. in economics from Princeton University. He taught the first course in 'Judaism and Christianity' at Fuller Theological Seminary and at UCLA he was a professor. ^[2]

Stern lives in Jerusalem and is active in Israel's Messianic Jewish community.^[3][4]

Complete Jewish Bible[edit]

Stern's major work is the Complete Jewish Bible, his English translation of the Tanakh and New Testament (which he, like many Messianic Jews, refers to as the "B'rit Hadashah", from the Hebrew term ברית חדשה, often translated "new covenant", used in Jeremiah 31). One unique feature of Stern's translation is the wide usage of transliteration, rather than literal translation, throughout the Bible. For the New Testament, Greek proper nouns are often replaced with transliterated Hebrew words. Stern himself refers to this as a "cosmetic" treatment.^{[citation needed]}

Other notable characteristics of Stern's translation include the translating of Greek phrases about "the law" as having to do with "Torah-legalism" instead. More explanation is found in his Messianic Jewish Manifesto (now out of print) and his Messianic Judaism: A Modern Movement With an Ancient Past (a revision of the Manifesto).

[Gregory Matthews]

Also, if you look as Stern's educational background, you will not find him qualified to publish such a  translation. 

[Wingnut]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

All in all, Dr. Stern's work (CJB) in my thinking reflects considerable bias.  Yes, in some cases it may be informed.  But, it is a bias.  For more on this see (from Wikipedia):

 

 

Was this involved in the Sacred Names movement?

[Gregory Matthews]

Sacred Name Movement:  I do not know.

[Wingnut]

If Christ died on a Friday or a Wednesday - it sounds like a non-salvation issue.

 

But I find that even the very smallest truth or error can unlock or lock a much bigger truth or error.

[Scuba]

Wingnut

If Christ died on a Friday or a Wednesday - it sounds like a non-salvation issue.

But I find that even the very smallest truth or error can unlock or lock a much bigger truth or error.

Truth and error form like standing dominos in a line. When one is knocked down a bunch usually follow. If enough domino's fall you might find out when the last one falls that you were never really following God in the first place. 

[Gregory Matthews]

By the way, there is a book, written by a Rabbi, which reflects actual Jewish thought, that comments on New Testament passages and shows with actual quotations, what Jewish scholars and theologians have said on the subject throughout the years. I personally own a copy of that book.  However, due to my current living situation to include the fact that my books are now in storage, I an unable to name either the author or the title of the book.

I think (?) the book has a focus on Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and the words of Jesus rather than the other NT books.

[Wingnut]

2 hours ago, Scuba said:

Wingnut

If Christ died on a Friday or a Wednesday - it sounds like a non-salvation issue.

But I find that even the very smallest truth or error can unlock or lock a much bigger truth or error.

Truth and error form like standing dominos in a line. When one is knocked down a bunch usually follow. If enough domino's fall you might find out when the last one falls that you were never really following God in the first place. 

There is a lot of truth in your domino analogy.  And the smallest little error could be like the pin in a grenade.  It's holding in all that truth which is ready to explode out.  Bad analogy, but the best I can think of.

Zechariah 4:10

For who hath despised the day of small things? 

 

[Scuba]

7 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

There is a lot of truth in your domino analogy.  And the smallest little error could be like the pin in a grenade.  It's holding in all that truth which is ready to explode out.  Bad analogy, but the best I can think of.

Zechariah 4:10

For who hath despised the day of small things? 

 

Jesus used leaven for His analogy.

[Wingnut]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

By the way, there is a book, written by a Rabbi, which reflects actual Jewish thought, that comments on New Testament passages and shows with actual quotations, what Jewish scholars and theologians have said on the subject throughout the years. I personally own a copy of that book.  However, due to my current living situation to include the fact that my books are now in storage, I an unable to name either the author or the title of the book.

I think (?) the book has a focus on Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and the words of Jesus rather than the other NT books.

The movie "Fiddler on the Roof" correctly shows that the Jews have traditions for everything.

It is just very hard to tease apart what bits come from the Torah and which from the Talmud.

[phkrause]

On 11/12/2015, 9:28:46, Gregory Matthews said:

All in all, Dr. Stern's work (CJB) in my thinking reflects considerable bias.  Yes, in some cases it may be informed.  But, it is a bias.  For more on this see (from Wikipedia):

 

 

And so are most other Bible's!

[phkrause]

7 hours ago, Wingnut said:

The movie "Fiddler on the Roof" correctly shows that the Jews have traditions for everything.

It is just very hard to tease apart what bits come from the Torah and which from the Talmud.

And so do all other denominations. And if you read the Torah and read the Talmud, you shouldn't have a problem of what comes from where!

[Gregory Matthews]

The source of the material has something to say as to the authority that it has.  To be even more specific, the Talmud has more than one underlying source.

 

 

[Wingnut]

2 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The source of the material has something to say as to the authority that it has.  To be even more specific, the Talmud has more than one underlying source.

 

 

Occasionally someone will tell me how Jews say keep Passover today.  They eat an egg which represents...... and leave a space open for Elijah, and send a child to go and ask a question, "Is Elijah here?".  And the children hunt for something (eggs??), or some prize.  Forgive me if I sound confused, but it was a long and complicated description which I have largely expunged from my mind.  I have a very good ability to totally forget stuff I utterly reject.

 

But this Christian friend was raving about the rich Jewish tradition of Passover as if we can learn so much from it, and that we cannot even understand the NT without understanding Jewish culture.  I reject that.  The Bible stands as it is not needing external help to understand it.

[Gregory Matthews]

There is a group of Christians who believe that we should work Jewish religious holidays and some other stuff into our Christian practices.  Some of our Adventist members have been converted to this viewpoint.  We had one such in the congregation that I recently attended.  She liked to often quote from the Complete Jewish Bible, which is how I first became aware of it.

 

[Wingnut]

10 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

There is a group of Christians who believe that we should work Jewish religious holidays and some other stuff into our Christian practices.  Some of our Adventist members have been converted to this viewpoint.  We had one such in the congregation that I recently attended.  She liked to often quote from the Complete Jewish Bible, which is how I first became aware of it.

 

My objection to Jewish stuff is things like the egg, and leaving an open seat for Elijah, and sending children on a hunt for??? etc. none of which I read in the Bible.  I fear the Jews would only add more confusion than light.  Even their kosher laws seem embellished and complicated.

[Wingnut]

38 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

There is a group of Christians who believe that we should work Jewish religious holidays and some other stuff into our Christian practices.  Some of our Adventist members have been converted to this viewpoint.  We had one such in the congregation that I recently attended.  She liked to often quote from the Complete Jewish Bible, which is how I first became aware of it.

 

I have only attended church with Adventists for a year.  

Before that, for most of my adult life, I kept the weekly Sabbath as well as the annual Jewish Sabbaths mentioned in Lev 23, including Passover, Tabernacles, Trumpets and Atonement.

I have always liked these additional Sabbaths and continue to keep them privately at home.

Occasionally the subject will come up and I meet Adventists who seem interested in keeping the annual Sabbaths. I want to make sure that they do not view keeping Jewish Holy Days as a shortcut to deeper spirituality.  That they are not.

I personally still keep them because Jesus did.  

One could make the argument that they were intended for Israelites living in Israel near Jerusalem only, since there are references to keeping these at "the place which the Lord shall choose" which is Jerusalem.

[Gregory Matthews]

Koshar laws are very complicated, much more than Lev, chapter 11.

[Wingnut]

Just watched Jentzen Franklin interview Ben Carson on Faith Broadcasting Network.  Ben did a real good job.

Most folks do not know the following, that God commanded His feasts on certain days.

But the authorities who set the Jewish calendar have what are called "postponements" whereby they push the annual sabbaths forward, to make the keeping of these more convenient for them.  To read more see... 

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Mathematics_of_the_Jewish_Calendar/The_four_postponements_of_the_New_Year

Here is part of it...

"
Rule 2

If Rosh Hashana would fall on a Sunday, Wednesday or Friday, then it is postponed to the next day. If it has already been postponed to Sunday, Wednesday or Friday by Rule 1, it is thus postponed for two days.

The reason for this rule is that if Rosh Hashana fell on a Wednesday or Friday, then Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), which is on 10th Tishri, would be a Friday or Sunday. Since both Yom Kippur and the Sabbath, which occurs every Saturday, are days when virtually all work is forbidden, it would be very inconvenient to have them on consecutive days. However, it is all right for Yom Kippur and the Sabbath to coincide, as then they are only one day.

If Rosh Hashana fell on a Sunday, then Hoshana Rabba, which is 21st Tishri, would be a Saturday, the Sabbath. It is traditional on that day to walk seven times round the Synagogue carrying a palm branch; this ritual could not be performed on the Sabbath.

This rule is often called Lo ADU Rosh. "Lo" is the Hebrew for "no". "ADU" represents the first, fourth and sixth letters of the Hebrew alphabet, and means that Rosh (Hashana) cannot fall on the first, fourth or sixth days of the week.

If these were the only postponement rules, it would be possible for an ordinary year to have 356 days or a leap year to have 382 days. To avoid this, there are two further rules."
 

[BobRyan]

On 11/10/2015, 11:48:06, JoeMo said:

EGW did have the prophetic gift; but she did NOT hold the formal office of "Prophet".  In the OT, the gift of prophecy was concentrated in a few priviledged individuals.  In the NT, it is a distributed gift available to the whole church.  Furthermore, the gift of interpretation and discernment  are DIFFERENT than the gift of prophecy.  Wheras EGW's vision were (arguably) true and accurate, her interpretation (IMO) was not.  Writings of EGW is fine as a guide, as are Billy Graham's, Joseph Prince's, Tozer's, Luther's, etc.  The Bible and the Spirit are the ONLY standards by which these writings can be judged.

She did in fact hold the office of a prophet and was actually paid as an officer in the SDA church after James White died - in that very capacity. She claimed to have the same "more than a prophet" -- messenger of God - role as John the baptizer whom Christ said was a first century fulfillment to send Elijah the prophet. And in 1Ccor 12 that places her role but one step under "Apostle".

 

In 2 Peter 1:19-21 God tells us exactly how it is that the Bible "comes about"  -- and that is exactly how Ellen White got her information as well. We do not serve "two gods...one of the Bible and another that inspired Ellen White". As we all know. There are not "two gifts of prophecy in 1Cor 12". Other individuals had moments where they were given a vision or an inspired dream - contemporaries - but only Ellen White, Hazen Foss, William Foy were actually asked to serve in the role of prophet. Foy agreed to serve for at least a year before he quit. Foss rejected after having been given one vision. Ellen White accepted that prophetic ministry until the day of her death. Praise God!

[phkrause]

On 11/12/2015, 7:30:47, Scuba said:

9 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Just watched Jentzen Franklin interview Ben Carson on Faith Broadcasting Network.  Ben did a real good job.

Most folks do not know the following, that God commanded His feasts on certain days.

But the authorities who set the Jewish calendar have what are called "postponements" whereby they push the annual sabbaths forward, to make the keeping of these more convenient for them.  To read more see... 

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Mathematics_of_the_Jewish_Calendar/The_four_postponements_of_the_New_Year

Here is part of it...

"
Rule 2

If Rosh Hashana would fall on a Sunday, Wednesday or Friday, then it is postponed to the next day. If it has already been postponed to Sunday, Wednesday or Friday by Rule 1, it is thus postponed for two days.

The reason for this rule is that if Rosh Hashana fell on a Wednesday or Friday, then Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), which is on 10th Tishri, would be a Friday or Sunday. Since both Yom Kippur and the Sabbath, which occurs every Saturday, are days when virtually all work is forbidden, it would be very inconvenient to have them on consecutive days. However, it is all right for Yom Kippur and the Sabbath to coincide, as then they are only one day.

If Rosh Hashana fell on a Sunday, then Hoshana Rabba, which is 21st Tishri, would be a Saturday, the Sabbath. It is traditional on that day to walk seven times round the Synagogue carrying a palm branch; this ritual could not be performed on the Sabbath.

This rule is often called Lo ADU Rosh. "Lo" is the Hebrew for "no". "ADU" represents the first, fourth and sixth letters of the Hebrew alphabet, and means that Rosh (Hashana) cannot fall on the first, fourth or sixth days of the week.

If these were the only postponement rules, it would be possible for an ordinary year to have 356 days or a leap year to have 382 days. To avoid this, there are two further rules."
 

The words, (day of the week) are not in the original language. The word that should be there is the word, (Sabbath) so it should read like this, (On the first Sabbath). Why was it called the first Sabbath? Because they were counting the Sabbaths. That was the first Sabbath of seven Sabbaths they had to count in order to navigate to the next Feast Day 50 days later. Count seven Sabbaths and add a day to make 50 days. These are the instructions that God gave to them in Leviticus. New moons are used to determine which month they are in and weekly Sabbaths are used to determine which week they are in. If I said I wanted to meet with you on the second Sabbath after the first that would mean the second week on that particular month. Listen to this principle found in Luke.

Luke 6:1 Now it happened on the second Sabbath after the first that He went through the grain fields. And His disciples plucked the heads of grain and ate them,rubbing them in their hands.

It happened on the second Sabbath, after the first, means it was the second week of the new moon or the second week of that particular month.

Paul used the same principle of counting Sabbaths to determine the week. Listen.

1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first Sabbath let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.

Paul would be passing through their area on the first Sabbath of that particular month, in other words, the first week of that particular month. Paul would not say, "On September 7th I'll be passing through your area so put some things aside for me to take as I pass through".

check this website out

http://individual.utoronto.ca/kalendis/hebrew/postpone.htm

 

[Wingnut]

5 hours ago, phkrause said:

check this website out

http://individual.utoronto.ca/kalendis/hebrew/postpone.htm

 

Thank you.  It was interesting.

[Wingnut]

The more one studies the Hebrew calendar with its postponements, the more this scripture comes to mind.

Matt 15:6...

Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

It is not known if postponements were applied at the time of Christ.

If they were then it would possibly explain why Christ kept Passover a day before the Jews did.

I doubt Christ would have agreed with postponements or changing the date He ordered the days be kept.