Does having a fallen nature make us transgressors?

[Gerr]

On 5/8/2016 at 10:11 AM, Robert said:

What is transgression?

 Transgression pre-supposes that one has the knowledge of the law. Transgression, therefore, is the known violation of God's moral law.

Are we born guilty of transgression?

Answer: Absolutely not!  See Romans 5:13

Are we born sinners?

Answer: Absolutely!  See Ps 51:5 for starters.

Why?

Turn to Eph 2:3 "...All of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh (i.e., our fallen natures), indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind..."

By birth the desires of our fallen natures and our minds are in complete harmony. This is because we are born "spiritually dead" because God's Spirit is has not yet been invited to live within our spirit (i.e., the inner mind). 

Therefore in our case having a sinful nature makes us sinners because we are born with our fallen natures controlling our minds. 

Christ, as the son of man, was born spiritually alive.  Unlike us His mind was never under the control of "our" fallen natures.  Hence Christ never sinned, not even by a thought.  He was never born a slave to the desires of our fallen natures as we are.

There seems to be a contradiction in the above.  Sin is defined as "transgression of the law" (1 Jn 3:4).  On the one hand you say we are born sinners, i.e. transgressors of the law,  and on the other hand you say "absolutely not" born guilty of transgression.  Born a sinner, a transgressor of the law but not guilty of transgression!  Seems like an oxymoron.

[Robert]

Take for example infants.  They have no cognitive knowledge of God's law, yet they are born self-centered (selfish).  Selfishness is the essence of sin; therefore infants are sinners, but they are not transgressors.  

To understand this better I suggest reading Roman 5:12-14:

So then, just as sin entered the world (i.e., the human race) through one man (Adam) and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned (in Adam)— for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but there is no accounting for sin when there is no law.  Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam transgressed.

We are born sinners.  We are born "bent-to-self" (self-centered).  The Bible calls this "iniquity".

When we become aware of God's law, either directly or indirectly, we become transgressors. 

 

[Robert]

5 hours ago, jackson said:

We are born with a fallen nature, which, if not resisted by the will, leads us to sin.

When you were born did you even know what "the will" was?  No!  So, what's your point?

The love of self (iniquity) drives us from birth.  Everything we do from birth is polluted with "self".   

Quote

Iniquity is the result of transgression.

The Bible uses some 12 different words to define sin; but putting these together we may categorize sin into three basic concepts.  These three are all expressed in Ps. 51:2-3. They are:  iniquity, sin, and transgression. 

The root meaning of iniquity is “to be bent.” At the fall Adam's nature took a u-turn, i.e., it became "bent back to self".  

Iniquity is not an act, but rather a condition. 

[Robert]

3 minutes ago, jackson said:

Through the help provided, man, in his fallen nature, can do the very things God expects him to do. He can walk and work and live by faith in the Son of God. The Lord draws man close to his side, to walk with him, to work with him, and to teach him how to overcome temptation. With every temptation there is a way of escape, by walking humbly with God.  {RH, April 15, 1909 par. 7} 

This is off subject....The subject is "Does having a fallen nature make us transgressors?"

[Robert]

4 hours ago, jackson said:

According to your doctrine, a fallen nature makes one a transgressor, and since all retain a fallen nature until the resurrection or translation, then one can never be an overcomer, but always a sinner in this life.

Your doctrine also precludes Jesus from being made in the nature of Abraham, made in all things as we are and experiencing every temptation that we experience, for that would mean he was born with a fallen nature. But your doctrine would make Him a sinner....

I didn't say that having a fallen nature makes you a transgressor.  Having a fallen nature condemns you.  Guilt and condemnation are not the same.  Here's an illustration:

Man "A" is thumbing a ride.  Man "B" stops his car to pick him up.  What man "A" doesn't know is that man "B" has been drinking.  Anyway, man "B", because he is intoxicated, takes a curve too fast and kills himself and man "A".

Conclusion:

Man "B" is guilty of breaking a known law. He is a transgressor and therefore guilty before the law concerning DWI.

Man "A" is innocent, but because of man "B's" transgression (i.e., the breaking of a known law) man "A" is condemned to death.

Yes?

[Robert]

4 hours ago, jackson said:

 The title of this thread is "does having a fallen nature make us transgressors?".  So i assume, in light of your example above, that you agree that the answer to that is "No"  

My example differentiated between guilt and condemnation.  If you break a known law you are guilty of transgression.  It's just that simple.

If you are ignorant of law your aren't guilty before the law.  That's the point of Romans 5:13

Quote

Have you now retracted that statement in light of your description of Man "A" as being innocent?

Man "A" is not guilty of DWI just as the human race is not born guilty of Adam's sin (i.e., eating the fruit of the tree), but man "A", because of his association with man "B" is condemned to death.

My point?  We are not born guilty of Adam's sin.  However, we do share his fallen nature and therefore we belong to a condemned race.  If not then "flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God" becomes meaningless. "Flesh" here is Sarx in the Greek.  It means "sinful human nature".  

Our natures condemn us. Paul refers to it as "sin living in me".  Because we are born without God's Spirit our first primitive thoughts are based in "iniquity" and there we are sinners, but until the law we are not transgressors. 

[Robert]

5 hours ago, jackson said:

I think we must differentiate between the first and second death. 

The discussion is not about the 1st and 2nd death...It's about transgression, sin and condemnation. 

[Robert]

7 hours ago, jackson said:

Through Adam's sin all mankind lose access to the tree of life, lose immortality  and die the first death.. 

That's not what Paul states, although there's some truth to what you state.  

Paul: 

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned [in Adam]—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Adam transgressed.  Adam broke a known command.  He knew, firsthand, not to eat of the fruit of the tree.  Because of his transgression "sin entered the world".  Sin here is not transgression rather here Paul is addressing the source of our sinning - our bent-to-self.

Because of our "bent-to-self" - because of our fallen nature - "death came to all people" because mankind receive from Adam nothing but condemnation.  

"As related to the first Adam, men receive from him nothing but guilt and the sentence of death." [EGW]

[Robert]

7 hours ago, jackson said:

The second death is the punishment  for  our unrepented and unforsaken sins.

No, the 2nd death is "the curse of the law", which is God abandonment with no hope of a resurrection.

If you've sinned...if you are imperfect...then you must die. Do you honestly think you can obtain heaven through your works?  Please...that's pure legalistic nonsense.

Your only hope is to accept the righteousness of Christ because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".  "The glory of God" being His agape love manifested in the life of Christ.  Christ had no self-interest.  There was not one iota of self-seeking in His life. 

Christ lived after this model: “Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.” 1 Corinthians 10:24

[Robert]

24 minutes ago, jackson said:

Unless he repents, confesses his wrongs, and becomes qualified through the grace of Christ for service in his cause, he is a lost man. 

As wonderful as repentance is it is ultimately admitting to Christ that you are a sinner in need of both His imputed and imparted righteousness. 

[Robert]

2 hours ago, jackson said:

No, no no. It is much more than that. It is being sorry enough not to want to sin again. It is turning away from your disobedience with a resolve . 

Okay, resolve ain't perfection, right?  It seems you preaching good old salvation by works - legalism.

[APL]

But while it is true that repentance must precede forgiveness, for it is only the broken and contrite heart that is acceptable to God, yet the sinner cannot bring himself to repentance, or prepare himself to come to Christ. Except the sinner repent, he cannot be forgiven; but the question to be decided is as to whether repentance is the work of the sinner or the gift of Christ. Must the sinner wait until he is filled with remorse for his sin before he can come to Christ? The very first step to Christ is taken through the drawing of the Spirit of God; as man responds to this drawing, he advances toward Christ in order that he may repent. {1SM 390.1}

[Robert]

4 hours ago, jackson said:

It is works of righteousness that qualifies one for Heaven....

What does Paul state to those who think that they can add to Christ's finished work of redemption?

"You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." Gal 5:4

Jackson, you and folks like yourself, are the main reason I stopped attending the local SDA church.  They taught the same subtle legalism as you do.

Here's my question to you:  Do you think you can stand before God's law on judgement day and claim to be "blameless" as Saul (turned Paul) did in Philippians 3:6?

If so, you'll be sadly mistaken. 

[Robert]

5 hours ago, jackson said:

If you love Him you will keep His commandments. Why is this so threatening to you? Is Rev 22:14 asking the impossible of you?

I noted that you avoided my question.  Why?  Just for you, I'll repeat it:

Do you think you can stand before God's law on judgement day and claim to be "blameless" as Saul (turned Paul) did in Philippians 3:6?

[Robert]

5 hours ago, jackson said:

But why are you questioning me, when you should be questioning  Jesus? Do you really disagree with him when He said in Rev 22:14:: "  Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."?

Here is the NASB: "Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city."

BTW, here's info on this version:

https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/

[Robert]

4 hours ago, jackson said:

i echo the sentiments of Paul:....Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded....

Here's the NKJV: "Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind" Phil 3:15

Quote

Whether I  be an overcomer or not has no bearing on the truth as revealed in scripture. 

No, Jackson...no.  The question was directly to you.  Stop evading! 

Do you think you can stand before God's law on judgement day and claim to be "blameless" as Saul (turned Paul) did in Philippians 3:6?

 

[Robert]

2 hours ago, jackson said:

Ok, you want to use a translation that avoids the word commandments. But washing their robes and making them clean and white is a mark of righteousness and  is a work the saints do.(Rev 19:8 &3:18)  However,  that would be legalism in your thinking. Furthermore ,

Rev 19:8          And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 

Rev 3:18          I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 

There are many other scriptures warning us of the necessity of keeping God's commandments; some right in the same book of revelation.

Rev 12:17   And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev  14:12   Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1 John  2:3   And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.    2:4   He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 5:3   For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

So then, I take it that you keep the commandments and that you stand righteous before God's law?

[Robert]

...When I stand before the judgment seat of God, and the law of God says to me, “Have you obeyed me?”  I will not say to the law, “Well, I did my best.”

The law says, “I did not ask that question.”

“Well, I kept most of the law.”

The law will say, “I did not ask you that question either.  Have you obeyed me in every detail?”

“Well, I goofed up a few times.”

And the law says, “I’m sorry, you must die.  Once is enough.”

But I thank God I will not answer the law that way.  I will say, “Yes, I have obeyed you perfectly.”

The law will say, “When did you obey me perfectly?”

“When I was in Christ.  Then I had perfect obedience.”

But the law will say, “You’re a sinner, you must die.”

And I will say to the law, “Well I have bad news for you, I have already died.”

The law will say, “When did you die?”

I will quote to the law Galatians 2:20:

 

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live....

 

The law will say, “Well, if that’s your position, then you are free to live.”

And I will say to the law, “Thank you.”

Because, in Christ, the law has been established on behalf of you and me.  That is what verse 31 says.  God doesn’t bypass His law to justify us.  God holds His integrity to His law when He justifies me through His Son Jesus Christ.  Because, in His Son’s holy history, God has met every demand of the law for you and for me.  That is the “good news” of the Gospel.

[JS]

[Robert]

1 hour ago, jackson said:

Why do you base your understanding of the scriptures on my response to them? What in the world does my spiritual walk have to do with the truth? 

Spiritual walk?  Sorry, that doesn't answer the law.

Gal 3:10  "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.'"

 

[Robert]

1 hour ago, jackson said:

If i fall away and fail to reach the potential God has provided for us all,, does that make God's promises  empty ones ?

To "fall away" is to commit apostasy - i.e., to harden one's heart and fully reject the atonement. Failing to keep the law is not apostasy; you are getting the two confused.

God promised us salvation "in Christ Jesus".  That work is finished...it's complete.  You cannot add to that work through sanctification.  Until you get that straight you will continue to have no peace; no assurance and no rest.

. 

[Robert]

None of the apostles and prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, but have trusted wholly in the righteousness of Christ.

So will it be with all who behold Christ. The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14.

Let the recording angels write the history of the holy struggles and conflicts of the people of God; let them record their prayers and tears; but let not God be dishonored by the declaration from human lips, "I am sinless; I am holy." Sanctified lips will never give utterance to such presumptuous words. [AA 561,562]

[Robert]

BTW, Jackson, we are off subject.  Interested in getting back to the original question?

"Does having a fallen nature make us transgressors?"

[Robert]

On 5/8/2016 at 10:27 AM, Robert said:

Does having a fallen nature condemn us?

Answer: Yes!

You see there's a difference between condemnation and guilt.  

Guilt involves volition - the transgression of a known law.

On the other hand condemnation is the result of sharing Adam's fallen nature.  Because of Adam's transgression his nature became bent-to-self.  Since we are the multiplication of Adam's fallen life we all belong to a condemned race, not a guilty race.  

Let me use an example:  Let's say you are thumbing a ride because your car broke down.  Unknown to you the man picking you up is intoxicated.  He is guilty of breaking a known law (i.e., the law against drinking and driving).  You get in his vehicle; because he is intoxicated he takes a curve too fast and as result you both die.  The driver's transgression condemned you, but you aren't guilty of his sin.  You are however condemned because of his sin.

Therefore Christ, as the son of man, wasn't guilty of sin because He took our fallen nature upon His Divinity.  However by assuming our fallen nature He did unite himself to a condemned race.  That condemned race died on the cross forever.  At the resurrection Christ's humanity was raised in a glorified, sinless state without  "our" indwelling bent-to-self. 

 

[Rick Sterling]

Though we were born Jews and not pagan sinners, we acknowledge that what makes a man righteous is not obedience to the Law, but faith in Jesus Christ. we had to become believers in Christ Jesus no less than you had, and now we hold that faith in Christ rather than fidelity to the Law is what justifies(makes righteous) and that no one can be justified(made righteous) by keeping the Law. Now if we were to admit that the result of looking to Christ to justify us is to make us sinners like the rest, it would follow that Christ had induced us to sin, which would be absurd. If I were to return to a position I had already abandoned, I should be admitting I had done something wrong. In other words, through the Law I am dead to the Law, so that now I can live for God. I have been crucified with Christ, and I live now not with my own life but with the life of Christ who lives in me. The life I now live in this body I live in faith: faith in the Son of God who loved me and who sacrificed himself for my sake. I cannot bring myself to give up God's gift: if the Law can justify(make righteous) us, there is no point in the death of Christ. Galatians 2:15-21

So if I am "crucified with Christ" I am dead to the Law (Ten Commandments) therefore I no longer live. What follows my death is this, the Spirit of Christ inhabits my flesh, which is the gift of righteousness, the righteousness of Christ

That is why you, my brothers, who through the body of Christ are now dead to the Law, can now give yourselves to another husband, to him who rose from the dead to make us productive for God. Before our conversion our sinful passions, quite unsubdued by the Law, fertilized our bodies to make them give birth to death. but now we are fid of the Law, freed by death from our imprisonment, free to serve in the new spiritual way and not the old way of a written law. Romans 7:4-6

For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation. Romans 4:14-15

For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. Colossians 3:3-4

And such confidence we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death , in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 2 Corinthians 3:4-8

What is clear to me about the Law (Ten Commandments), according to Paul, is this: the Ten Commandments are the "Old Covenant" and they insured that all would die because no flesh and blood sinful mortal has the ability to obey them. So I need to die so God can resurrect me as He did His Son. This frees me from the "Old Covenant" "letters engraved on stones", and I now live in the Spirit, the "New Covenant" where there is freedom.

It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery (Ten Commandments). Galatians 5:1

 

 

[Robert]

1 hour ago, jackson said:

Apostasy- the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief  

No...that's not how the Bible defines Apostasy! 

Hebrew 10:5 Therefore, when He (the Divinity of Christ) came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me....7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— In the volume of the book it is written of Me—To do Your will, O God.’”

At the incarnation the Divinity of Christ was united to "a body". Hence Christ became the "last Adam".  Christ came to do His Father's will - to save the human race by His doing & dying.

verse10 By that will (i.e., by Christ's doing & dying) we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

When the humanity that Christ assumed died "all died".  Hence Christ's death was a corporate death and we have been justified in the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ. That work is a finished work.

verse 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth (i.e., that "in Christ" we stand just), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 

Under the Old Covenant if you sinned you died.  Under the New Covenant if you abandon Christ...if you apostatize by trampling "the Son of God underfoot" and reject the atonement, you've had it.  You are back under law....