Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 15, 2016 Administrators Share Posted July 15, 2016 Interesting word study - http://www.godswordtowomen.org/ezerkenegdo.htm It is notable that EGW also refers to Adam and Eve as being creates as equals. "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Cochoa Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 7 minutes ago, Tom Wetmore said: Interesting word study - http://www.godswordtowomen.org/ezerkenegdo.htm It is notable that EGW also refers to Adam and Eve as being creates as equals. Yes, they were created as equals, just like God the Father and Jesus are equals. They still had different roles, and a need for mutual love and unity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 15, 2016 Author Administrators Share Posted July 15, 2016 God created the man and woman to rule together over all of creation. (See Genesis 1:27-28) The Biblical creation story really doesn't identify different roles for them. It is stated as a joint rulership over creation. "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Cochoa Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 6 minutes ago, Tom Wetmore said: God created the man and woman to rule together over all of creation. (See Genesis 1:27-28) The Biblical creation story really doesn't identify different roles for them. It is stated as a joint rulership over creation. Some pertinent questions come to my mind. 1) Why does the Bible explicitly speak of Adam being created before Eve? (See Genesis 2:7-24; 1 Timothy 2:13.) 2) Why does Adam, not Eve, name all of the animals? (See Genesis 2:20.) 3) Why does God name Adam, but Adam names Eve? (See Genesis 2:7, 19, 23; 3:20.) 4) Why was Eve told to stay with her husband, not the other way around? (See PP 54.1.) 5) Why was Adam taller than Eve? (See ST, January 9, 1879 par. 13.) 6) Why does God say it is not good for the man to be alone, so the woman would be his helpmeet? (See Genesis 2:18.) 7) Why does God make Eve from a piece of Adam, but no piece of Eve was in Adam? (See Genesis 2:20-21.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 15, 2016 Author Administrators Share Posted July 15, 2016 You do realize that the Hebrew that is translated as the traditional proper name "Adam" is in fact the Hebrew word "man". It also means "mankind", "human being". The use of the Hebrew "adam" is most frequently used in the OT to mean or refer to "mankind". That would be the meaning in Genesis 1:27 that precisely says that God created both male and female "adam". No Biblical evidence that God named the man, or the woman. He called them both "adam" or "man" saying "let's make "adam" and proceeds to make "adam" male and female. As for the order of creation, that which is created first in time is not necessarily in order of importance or rank. Do not forget that God created fish and birds and animals before he created man. As for your number 6, the meaning of the word translated as "helpmeet" is the whole point of the article linked in the OP, if you would read it. It strongly infers an equal relationship, not one of subservience. As for you number 7, read EGW's explanation of that carefully. She says a rib from the man's side to mean the she should stand beside him as his equal. CoAspen, rudywoofs (Pam), Rossw and 1 other 4 "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Cochoa Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 4 hours ago, Tom Wetmore said: She says a rib from the man's side to mean the she should stand beside him as his equal. Exactly. "She" should stand beside "him" as "his" equal. God made the woman for the man. God didn't make the man for the woman, to stand beside her as her equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 equal adjective 1 being the same in quantity, size, degree, or value • (of people) having the same status, rights, or opportunities. • uniform in application or effect; without discrimination on any grounds • evenly or fairly balanced What we have here is failure to understand the dictionary.....or not!! (...could have sworn I saw that signpost talking....) Kevin H and Tom Wetmore 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APL Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Does Green forget that he was made of a woman? Kevin H and Tom Wetmore 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoarrge Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Not all of those definitions apply. There is obviously a degree of asymmetry. To be an agent of creation is to serve the Creator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Cochoa Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 54 minutes ago, CoAspen said: equal adjective 1 being the same in quantity, size, degree, or value • (of people) having the same status, rights, or opportunities. • uniform in application or effect; without discrimination on any grounds • evenly or fairly balanced What we have here is failure to understand the dictionary.....or not!! (...could have sworn I saw that signpost talking....) As your dictionary allows, "equal" can have different meanings. For example, "value." Right now, one USD might equal 0.9 Euros. Does that mean that the dollar is greater than the Euro? Obviously not. Would $100 be greater than €90? No, they are equal. But are they the same? Obviously not. Sameness and equality are separate entities. Adam and Eve were NOT equal in height, in their manner of creation, in their time of creation, in appearance, in abilities, etc. Yet they were equal in value, in position, in opportunities, etc. Unfortunately, sin extended the inequalities. Rossw 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Quote Yet they were equal in value, in position, in opportunities, etc. Unfortunately, sin extended the inequalities. So where is the conflict? What does being shorter or taller have to do with equality of value, position or opportunities? What does not being equal in appearance have to do with value, position or opportunities? Etc, etc....? You are agreeing with their being equal in position and opportunities, do you understand what that means? Actually, it is not different meanings but all encompassing, covering ever all possible aspects. Do I sense a little straining....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 I'm not taking sides here, but we have a question that begs to be answered: What is Paul's point in the following statement? "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression." 1 Tim 2:12-14 NASB 1977 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Robert, that statement has been discussed many times as to context and what was actually under discussion at that point in time...context...context...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossw Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 15 minutes ago, CoAspen said: Robert, that statement has been discussed many times as to context and what was actually under discussion at that point in time...context...context...... Are all Scripture to be interpreted in this way? Did Paul write his letter because it was only true to the audience? It seems as if what is true to his audience should be true to all believers otherwise why is it a part of canon instead of just historical record. If you don't like discussion why do you participate? Or are you hiding something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 16, 2016 Author Administrators Share Posted July 16, 2016 Context is important. If you ignore the context, comprehension of what the author meant is diminished and can lead to significant mistakes in understanding. This is not something to be avoided or suspicious of. Understand the context of Psalms 137:9, or you might be lead to make a horrible mistake - Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 1 hour ago, CoAspen said: Robert, that statement has been discussed many times as to context and what was actually under discussion at that point in time...context...context...... One view: https://bible.org/seriespage/9-what-does-it-mean-not-teach-or-have-authority-over-men-1-timothy-211-15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossw Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 1 Timothy 2 is not Psalms 137:9. Context can always be decided from within the chapter in Scripture or from other areas within Scripture. 1 Timothy 2 is pretty straight forward. What is everyone missing that you understand so well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 16, 2016 Author Administrators Share Posted July 16, 2016 4 hours ago, Green Cochoa said: "She" should stand beside "him" as "his" equal. God made the woman for the man. God didn't make the man for the woman, to stand beside her as her equal. Strange understanding of equal. If A equals B, B equals A. Can you grasp that God made them for each other? To be as one? That created oneness concept of the equal union of a married man and woman is something that Jesus strongly affirmed. APL 1 "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 Opponents on both sides of this debate have good arguments, but again I do not see it as a salvation issue. Years ago I was very against women as pastors. Now I really do not care either way because it doesn't fall within what the SDA church main purpose is and that is to present the Three Angels' messages of Revelation 14 phkrause 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 16, 2016 Author Administrators Share Posted July 16, 2016 2 minutes ago, Rossw said: 1 Timothy 2 is not Psalms 137:9. Context can always be decided from within the chapter in Scripture or from other areas within Scripture. 1 Timothy 2 is pretty straight forward. What is everyone missing that you understand so well? Not always. Meaning of words that have been translated from an ancient language may require looking outside of the context of Scripture to fully understand their meaning in the context of the time and culture they were written. Understanding archaeological, other historical, evidence helps to understand things not explained in Scripture. Understanding the geopolitical circumstance when something was written help us to understand what the original writer and readers may have taken for granted and didn't need to have explained. But let's not get sidetracked from the topic... "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 16, 2016 Author Administrators Share Posted July 16, 2016 Consider these statements by EGW: “The spirit that Christ manifests toward His church is the spirit that the husband and wife are to manifest toward each other” (Adventist Home, 95). “Neither husband nor wife is to make a plea for rulership. The Lord has laid down the principle that is to guide in this matter” (Adventist Home, 106-107). “Do not try to compel each other to do as you wish. You cannot do this and retain each other’s love” (Adventist Home, 107). “Remember that your wife accepted you as her husband, not that you might rule over her, but that you might be her helper” (Testimonies, 7:48). APL 1 "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 No lording it over the wife in those quotes.... Rossw 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossw Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 Just now, Tom Wetmore said: But let's not get sidetracked from the topic... I don't believe it is getting side tracked. Robert brought out a very important passage which can have significance to the discussion. Paul wrote a reference to Adam and Eve in 1 Timothy 2 that can apply to all man and woman. Doesn't the example used by Paul of Adam and Eve's dynamic show the relevance to everyone on down? It's kinda like the headship thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossw Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 4 minutes ago, Tom Wetmore said: Consider these statements by EGW: “The spirit that Christ manifests toward His church is the spirit that the husband and wife are to manifest toward each other” (Adventist Home, 95). “Neither husband nor wife is to make a plea for rulership. The Lord has laid down the principle that is to guide in this matter” (Adventist Home, 106-107). “Do not try to compel each other to do as you wish. You cannot do this and retain each other’s love” (Adventist Home, 107). “Remember that your wife accepted you as her husband, not that you might rule over her, but that you might be her helper” (Testimonies, 7:48). Why are extremes, such as abuse in the case of these quotes, continued to be used as strawmen to paint the anti-WO negatively? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 2 hours ago, Robert said: "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet." What is absent from the above context is a congregational setting or am I missing something? Kevin H 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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