Neil D Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 [:"blue"] Here you go, Shane. The beginings of the demise of the Roe VS Wade ruling....Congratulations, your party is now taking the offensive to curtal women's rights and reduce them to baby making machines.... [/] `Partial Birth' Abortion Ban Draws U.S. Supreme Court Review Feb. 21 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. Supreme Court agreed to decide whether the federal government can ban what opponents call ``partial birth'' abortion in a case that will pose the first test of Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr.'s approach toward reproductive rights. The court today said it will hear the Bush administration's appeal of a ruling that said the 2003 Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act is unconstitutional because it doesn't make an exception when a mother's health is at risk. The case has the potential to mark a turning point on abortion for the court, which in 2000 struck down a similar Nebraska law on a 5-4 vote. Abortion-rights advocates say a decision upholding the federal law would mark a retreat from the 2000 ruling and the principle that doctors can take steps they deem necessary to protect a patient's health. Bloomberg Report Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lambert Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Neil, do you clearly understand what "partial birth abortion" is? Do you understand it is talking about having a viable, living baby partly be born so it can be killed by stabbing it in the head? If you don't have a problem with that, then why don't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 21, 2006 Author Share Posted February 21, 2006 Nan, Do you wish to explain this since you do the actual OB-GYN work? Ron, Any woman who can deliver a head of the baby when at full term, has done the hardest part of delivering a baby...And since the issue is over the "health of the mother", I would surmise that any mother able to deliver the head of a baby, is NOT AT RISK. But then, I do not know all the possiblitys of an "at risk mother"...Do you? And it occurs to me that the old addage, "a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush" applys here.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Nan Posted February 21, 2006 Moderators Share Posted February 21, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Neil D said: Nan, Do you wish to explain this since you do the actual OB-GYN work? <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Ron, Any woman who can deliver a head of the baby when at full term, has done the hardest part of delivering a baby...And since the issue is over the "health of the mother", I would surmise that any mother able to deliver the head of a baby, is NOT AT RISK. But then, I do not know all the possiblitys of an "at risk mother"...Do you? And it occurs to me that the old addage, "a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush" applys here.... <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Neil, I do not do this sort of OBGYN work. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I am not aware of the routine use in this country of the techniques described in a Google search of 'partial birth abortion'. In the few cases of which I have nondirect knowledge, other methods are used. The most common method here of termination of a pregnancy up to about 24 weeks would involve a medication which induces strong uterine contractions which would usually kill the baby before it was born, by cutting off its oxygen supply for long periods. Occasionally such babies are born with a heart beat but do not survive long. My main use of that medication involves the termination of pregnancies when the fetus has already died. Shoulders can get stuck at delivery, getting the head out is not necessarily the worst/hardest part of a labour, but that is an aside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Quote: The beginings of the demise of the Roe VS Wade ruling Well, we can hope. But I am not going to hold my breath. Quote: Congratulations It is a little early for that. Please wait until a ruling has been made. I believe the partial birth abortion ban has an exception for cases when the mother's life is in danger. If it doesn't, it is likely to be struck down for that reason alone. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 22, 2006 Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 Nan... Twas a slip of the fingers to put in the words "THE actual ob-gyn work"....I meant a more generalized wording....as in 'actual OB-GYN work'... People; What most of us take issue with is the failure in many if not most late-term bans to take into account the life and health of the mother, in instances where complications can and often do jeopardize life and health. In such cases, the choice is either abort the pregnancy and save the mother, or risk losing one or both trying to go through with the full birth. Often the complications--which can include renal (kidney) problems leading to kidney failure; heart problems including murmurs and palpitations or even holes in the heart; or any life-threatening problem--go undetected until about the second or third trimester. Ohio tried to pass a blanket ban on all abortions, which included no such provisions for protecting the life of the mother and even made it a prosecutable offense to transport a woman across state lines to obtain an abortion--even in instances where the abortion is to preserve the life and/or health of the mother. Such bans are unConstitutional and impose undue restrictions on liberty. I would think that those who truly wish to protect the unborn would focus their efforts on preventing unwanted pregnancies and offering improved alternatives to abortion. But no anti-abortion law ever seems to do this. I guess most so-called "pro-lifers" really aren't as interested in protecting life as they claim to be. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 When we talk about what is and is not Constitutional we need to clarify our context. There is the historical context. For nearly 200 years states retained their right to legislate abortion laws under the Constitution. Since 1973 the Supreme Court has created precident that has provided a woman with the right to abortion. So there is the current or modern context and the historical context. Same Constitution just a different Supreme Court. Since the right to abortion came about due to a change in the Supreme Court and not in the Consitution, pro-choicers fear a new Supreme Court could return to the interpretation that prevailed in the nation for nearly 200 years. If Roe v. Wade is overturned it doesn't mean that abortion becomes illegal. What the pro-chocers fail to point out is the issue would go to the legislative branch and be decided through the democratic process. This is what we applaud around the world. Most pro-life groups are very active in promoting birth control and adoption. Pregnancy crisis centers do an excellent job. A member that use to be here, Tealeaves, was a practicing nurse that donated some of her time to working in a pregnancy crisis center. Many pro-lifers do such things. They are more than words. These people are examples of compassion. Laws do impact behavior. There need to be laws that regulated and restrict abortion. Public policy needs to discourage it. Hopefully this Supreme Court allows progress to be made in this area but stupid laws that restrict abortion without exceptions for the mother's life are destined to get struck down. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 23, 2006 Author Share Posted February 23, 2006 Quote: Ron Lambert said: Neil, do you clearly understand what "partial birth abortion" is? Do you understand it is talking about having a viable, living baby partly be born so it can be killed by stabbing it in the head? If you don't have a problem with that, then why don't you? Because this sort of senerio just doesn't exist..... Your premise is that women get abortions of healthy babys in the 3rd trimester because she doesnt want it..... Well, let's look at some facts.... From the National Abortion Federation [:"green"] Despite the claims of some anti-abortion activists, women have access to abortion in the third trimester only in extreme circumstances. Fewer than 2% of abortions are performed 21 weeks or after, and they are extremely rare after 26 weeks of pregnancy. Very few abortions are provided in the third trimester, and they are generally limited to cases of severe fetal abnormalities or situations when the life or health of the pregnant woman is seriously threatened. [/] And these are the most common reason for those late term abortions- [:"green"]Medical Complications Like anyone else in the population, pregnant women are susceptible to cancer, heart disease, diabetes, severe depression, addictions, and other serious health problems. Surgery, X-rays, chemotherapy, or other treatment vital to a woman's health or life may come to a halt once the pregnancy is discovered. A woman might choose abortion if a continued pregnancy would worsen her condition and/or threaten her life, or if she requires further treatments that may damage a developing fetus. Severe Fetal Abnormalities When a woman learns from the results of prenatal testing that a fetus has severe abnormalities, such as an undeveloped brain, a severe metabolic disorder, or no working kidney, she may wish to end the pregnancy rather than give birth to a child who will suffer and die in infancy or who will have severe disabilities. Unfortunately, the results of amniocentesis, one of the most important prenatal diagnostic tests, are generally not available until the 15th or 16th week of pregnancy, thus delaying the abortion decision. [/] Your facts are a bit off, Ron... The only reason that most doctors perform a trimester abortion is for the health of the mother... And that seems reasonable to me.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Remember another thread about this topic from a non-political point of view. Click here >>> Truth About Abortion Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 In a somewhat related story... >>> South Dakota passes abortion ban <<< Quote: Proposed amendments to the law to create exceptions to specifically protect the health of the mother, or in cases of rape or incest, were voted down. Also defeated was an amendment to put the proposal in the hands of voters. It really doesn't seem like the folks in power in South Dakota are all that bright. This law is likely to be struck down because it lacks such ammendments. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lambert Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Neil, you are changing the terms and speaking of only a selected set of specific situations. I was talking about "partial birth abortion." Not all such abortions involve damaged or defective babies. Some could be born as normal, living babies. They are allowed to be partially born so they can be physically killed, either by stabbing, or crushing the head, etc. I ask again, can you accept this? Never mind some other situation, some other procedure, some other circumstance. I am asking you about this one, that does happen, that some people want to continue being legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 23, 2006 Moderators Share Posted February 23, 2006 Just tagging on. It's murder to kill a baby after it's born, yet it's not a crime to kill it before it sees daylight. Go figure. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 23, 2006 Author Share Posted February 23, 2006 Quote: Neil, you are changing the terms and speaking of only a selected set of specific situations. I was talking about "partial birth abortion." Not all such abortions involve damaged or defective babies. You are right...IT's about protecting the health of the mother, when she is damaged by car crashes, or the stress of giving childbirth greatly endangers her life...But you knew that, didn't you? As evidenced by other physcians who frequent this forum, 3rd trimester abortrons are rare. OF those that do occur, according to the National Abortion Association, it happens when a] the mother's health is at great risk b] the baby is rarely viable after birth. It is NOT used to teminate the pregnacy for pregnacy's sake alone. With your position clear, Ron, you would prefer to make a law that would reduces a pregnant woman to a second class citizen, force her to give up her life for the life of the child. If that isn't a idol to the Catholic church, I don't know....And you sacrific every woman on that alter for the potential child's sake. I can only conclude that you don't trust a woman to make the right decision...which only indicate that you don't understand women and childbearing.... I truely pity people who have that opinion, as they will never understand the true worth of a woman.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 24, 2006 Moderators Share Posted February 24, 2006 How many lives are destroyed in order to spare the mother's life and not for convenience? Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 24, 2006 Author Share Posted February 24, 2006 Quote: How many lives are destroyed in order to spare the mother's life and not for convenience? Gerry, Aren't you a doctor? Don't you have some OB-GYN peers who you can ask? We have one general practioner who has induced labor due ot a child already dead...My question would be, do we as a public need to know these things? Isn't that covered by patient confedentuality and not subject to public scrutiny? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveB Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Hiya Neil, After a couple of years of absence it is nice to see you are still here making a grand attempt at winning hearts and minds and turning those who might be “baby producing machines” into “baby killing machines”. A couple of years hasn’t changed much of anything on here…. Same hot button topics, same viewpoints, same posters. Anyway, I thought I'd jump back in momentarily. Here are some more statistics for you: Abortion Statistics - Decisions to Have an Abortion (U.S.) 21.3% of women cannot afford a baby. 14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child. 12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.) 10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career. 7.9% of women want no (more) children. The above categories add up to 91.8 percent of all the reasons given for abortions in the US Each reason listed above has to do with issues of "convenience". 3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health. 2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health The above 2 categories amount to 5.1 percent If we could outlaw abortions on the basis of irresponsibility and convenience this would take care of approximately 91.8 percent of all abortions in the United States. The basis for 99 percent of all of your arguments cover the last two categories, which only cover 5.1% of the total argument. Statistically this makes your arguments in favor of turning women into baby killing machines, pretty close to irrelevant. Still yet, I would be happy to concede to you 5.1% of the argument if we could do away with 91.8% of all abortions. WDYT? Are you ready for a compromise? After all, you did admit that biblically abortion does equal murder. Remember? web page Quote SteveB "Whenever one begins to look at the bible as being subjective and open to “human” interpretation, watch closely for winsome philosophical excuses to follow." ME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 [sarcasm] I think just to balance this picture we ought to have cabals of women only deciding which men have misused their privileges and ought to be castrated. [/sarcasm] Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 25, 2006 Author Share Posted February 25, 2006 Quote: Anyway, I thought I'd jump back in momentarily. Here are some more statistics for you: First off, your stats are absolutely worthless as we are talking about the last trimester abortions... Not too many doctors that I am aware of, and I admit that I don't know all of them, will do 3rd trimester abortions unless it become clear that either the baby is at a low viablity risk, ie life threating birth defect or if the mother's health is in immediate risk, ie motor vehicle accident. The question that the goverment is proposing is that these type of trimester abortions be eliminated...My question is why? Are we setting up situations where mother's die because the doctor's are required to keep the baby alive? Who makes that decision? YOU???? As far as I am concerned, you can keep your filthy hands off my wife and my daughters.... I trust my daughters to make the right decision, and my wife and I as a family will make that decision FOR US.... That is our right.... It is NOT your right, nor the goverment's right.... If the goverment becomes involved, you have reduced all women to second class citisens.... And it is my duty to protect my family....Therefore, I am not afraid to kill someone when my family's health and welfare are concerned, especially when they are threatening the life of my family.... And that is my family's decisions to make....not yours... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Now in all honestly, women are in control of the entire reproduction process except in cases of rape/molestation. I am all for making men more responsible for the consequences but allowing abortion on demand does nothing to further that end. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 As I stated before, if abortion is to remain legal it should be restricted. Ways abortion could be restricted and discouraged are as follows: * Mandatory 24 hour waiting period * Mandatory counseling prior to abortion not done by the abortion provider * Pregnancy counseling centers (like Planned Parenthood) should not be allowed to be an abortion provider. * Minor children should have to have parental consent with some exceptions * Sex education programs in public school should discourage abortion and promote adoption * Special lisence plates should be availble that say something like "Choose Life" * Abortion providers should not be allowed to operate any pregnancy hotlines * Abortion providers should not be allowed to participate in any sex education in public schools * Abortions should not be allowed to be performed in a hospital except for medical reasons * PSAs (public service anouncements) should discourage abortion and encourage adoption * A tax credit should be given that equals the cost for adoption to those that adopt * Pregnancy shelters that provide shelter and medical care to unwed mothers should be subsidised by the governement. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 25, 2006 Author Share Posted February 25, 2006 This issue is about [large font] trimester abortions[/large font] ...not abortions...There is a difference between the two. I am not argueing over abortions...I am over trimester abortions... Shane, read my last post. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 It is more than that. Review my post #207330. South Sakota just passed a ban on all abortion except to save the mother's life and it is headed to the Supreme Court. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 26, 2006 Author Share Posted February 26, 2006 Quote: It is more than that. Review my post #207330. South Sakota just passed a ban on all abortion except to save the mother's life and it is headed to the Supreme Court. That was an aside...The origional post, was about trimester abortions...I know, cus I put it up. Gee wilikers, Shane. Stay on topic! Or are you attempting to hijack a thread? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Quote: Shane said: allowing abortion on demand does nothing to further that end. I seriously disagree with the total banning of ALL abortion outright, not even allowing exceptions in the case of rape, incest/molestation or where a woman's health is in jeopardy. Yet that is a FAR CRY from advocating the allowance of "abortion on demand." To equate the two is disingenuous. (And as it stands, you totally missed my point anyway: it is NOT for males to decide how women shall handle an issue pertaining to OUR bodies -- EVER -- period. When you become the ones who get pregnant and whose entire lives are at stake for being indelibly, irretrievably altered by that fact, THEN you can decide how to handle these situations. NOT before. Until then, you're out of line and out of place presuming to do so.) Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 I take a moderate position on abortion that neither extreame likes so I am use to taking heat. In my work with Republicans, I have gotten use to being labeled "pro-choice". I believe abortions should be legal in case the mother's life is in danger or a medical treatment is needed that would endanger the fetus (cancer treatments, serious surgery, etc.), in cases where a serious birth defect is determined in the fetus, in cases of rape and incest. But this thread really isn't about me and what I fail or do not fail to understand. Quote: it is NOT for males to decide how women shall handle an issue pertaining to OUR bodies -- EVER -- period. If we go back to biology class we learn a woman cannot get preganant by herself " -- EVER --- period." A sperm cell from a man's body has to be injected into a woman's body and fertilize the woman's egg. Once this happens a fetus begins to form. The question than becomes what rights the woman has over the fetus. True, it is in her body but is not her body. The fetus has its own DNA and eventually will have its own blood type. It is as much a part of the male's body as it is the woman's body but factually - it has its own body. Now in caes of rape we see that the sperm cell is forcably injected into the woman so many of us claim the woman has no obligation to nurish it. In cases where the mother's life is in danger, abortion is justified since killing in self-defense has always been acceptable. Abortion in cases of birth defects is more controversial. I do not believe I would ever choose that option but believe it should be left between a woman, her lover and doctor. In summerary, the issue of abortion focuses on the rights of the fetus, which has its own DNA. The woman should be seen as a seperate individual with her own rights too. A balanced view sees the fetus apart from the woman and not part of her. The #1 sideaffect of having sex is having a baby. It always has been and most likely, always will be. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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