Love and Risk

[joeb]

I have been prayerfully mulling the following over for the last few weeks, maybe a couple of months or so.  

Just what is the relationship between risk and love?  Does someone who loves his fellow man take risks because he loves his neighbor?  What I mean by that I'll try to make clear in the following analogy.  It has it's weak points where it doesn't really fit what I'm trying to get across, but it's the best I have been able to come up with.

Let's say you are sitting alone in your car at a parking lot near the beach and while there you observe a group of men getting what appears to be mines out of the trunk of their car.  You watch them and they start burying those mines in the path that leads down to the beach.  You try to call the authorities but find out your cell phone is dead and there is no one else around.  The men drive away without seeing you and now you're the only one outside that group who knows the pathway is mined.  What do you do?  Drive away and take the risk that someone comes while you are gone and starts walking down that mined pathway?  Do you stay and warn your fellow man the pathway is mined and to walk down that path to the beach means almost certain death?  

Let's say you stay to warn people and hope someone with a working cell phone comes along that they will let you borrow to call the cops.  Now, the very first person who comes along tells you he doesn't believe you when you when you tell him it might not be very healthy to walk down that path.  What do you do then?  Do you say, oh well, I tried but now his life is in his own hands and walk away while he goes to his death?  Or, do you try repeatedly to stop him?  How far would you go to save his life?  Would you tell him explicitly what the problem is a couple of times and then walk away when he refuses to believe you?  Just how hard would you work save his life?  If he gets mad at you would you cease trying to stop him?  Would you tackle him and hold him down even though he becomes enraged at your interference with what he wants to do?  Would you risk him getting really angry with you because you're trying to save his life?  

Could you really say you loved the man if the only effort you made to save his life was to suggest to him that it might not be healthy for him to take that path because you feared he might become angry with you?  What about if you went only one step further and told him the path was mined?  Would that constitute real love for him?  How much anger, sarcasm, or mockery on his part would you risk to save his life?  At what point would you walk away and just let him go to his death?  Would you risk taking a baseball bat and knocking him out to stop him, or if you're physically capable have a fist fight with him?  Just what kind of risk would you take for him?

I ask because as I read the Gospels I see Jesus taking great risks trying to reach His enemies.  He was very blunt with them.  In His ministry He exposed every error they taught at every opportunity.  He pointed out their lack of faith. He told them they were of their father the devil.  He told them they had made the temple a den of theives.  He risked them hating Him because He was trying to save them.  Many of them did hate Him because of what He said to them.  Jesus risked His life attempting to reach His enemies, and His efforts ultimately cost Him His life.  

Just how far would Jesus go to keep the man from walking down the mined path to sure death?  What would He risk for that man?  What would you risk for that stubborn, wilfull, unbelieving, angry man?  Would you risk some jail time by physically stopping him?  Would you risk him getting angry enough with you that he would kill you? Just how much would you risk for him?  

The question is important for it reveals to us how much we love our fellow man in how risk averse we are in attempting to help them.  Do you sit on the sidelines and think, oh, I wouldn't risk making anyone angry by exposing to them the error they believe because I wouldn't want to make them angry?  If you do, just how much do you really love that person?  How much do you care if they are lost?  Enough to risk the loss of a friendship because you stood firmly for God's word?  The errors the devil promotes about God and the Bible will kill just as surely as the land mine in the path for error teaches us a warped view of God and often induces us to ignore God's warnings and entreaties.  His errors also cause many to worship the idol of human reasoning. The devil's "logic bombs" will ultimately kill us if we believe them just as surely as a land mine will end our life here on earth.  So, do we oppose those lethal logic bombs because of the death and destruction they bring forth, or do we just ignore them and walk away without taking a risk?

How far down the same path of taking the risks Jesus took are you willing to go?  Do you follow His example or do you fear other people's possible anger?  Remember what Jesus said.  He said He didn't come to bring peace but came to bring a sword.  What did He mean by that?  He meant that people will either accept truth because they are one of His sheep and recognize His voice calling to them in the truth presented to them, or those who aren't His sheep will very possibly become angry and vehemently reject His truth while hating the messenger.  With either response God's word is not returning to him "void" and is accomplishing that which He sent it forth to do.  How?  He sent it out to cause us to make a decision either for or against Him.  He said I would that you were either cold or hot, but instead you're lukewarm.  Either love Me or hate Me, but don't be indifferent.  I can do something for you if you're up front about being for or against me, but I can't do anything for you if you're just indifferent towards Me.  

Reread the Gospels with an eye toward how often Jesus outright opposed the scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees.  Look at how many times He told them they didn't even understand the Torah.  One instance that people often overlook is the Sermon on the Mount.  Everything He addressed in that sermon was directly opposing doctrines taught by the Pharisees and/or Sadducees.  It was basically a declaration of war because He left the supposed spiritual leaders of the Jews with no place to hide.  The truth He presented removed their guise of pretended knowledge of God. Remember how often the common man marveled at how Jesus taught with a sense of authority?  That's because Jesus stood for truth.  He placed it upon its rightful place in society and kept it up there no matter what anyone else said or did.  Can we do anything less?  Or should we just allow the rubble of error to hide the beautiful truths of God's word?  If we do we are doing exactly the same things the Pharisees and Sadducees did.  Their attitude toward truth wasn't even in the same ballpark as their desire for worldly wealth and acclaim.

A really good book on this is "Practical Lessons from the Experience of Israel for the Church Today" by F.C. Gilbert.  He makes his points by quoting Jewish writings for every spiritual error the Jews of Christ's day were making.  He shows the utter corruption and disregard for God's word that existed in those days.  Man's reasoning was held in much higher esteem than the God's word was.  The error of Christ's day is the same error held so dearly today.  It's no wonder for the devil prepares the same errors so attractive to the unregenerated heart time after time after time as every generation of humanity has to deal with the same lessons their father's either learned from or ignored.  Every generation must discover truth for itself.   

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote

people will either accept truth because they are one of His sheep and recognize His voice calling to them in the truth presented to them, or those who aren't His sheep will very possibly become angry and vehemently reject His truth while hating the messenger.

I sorta agree, but also sorta disagree with the above.  In presenting the "truth" to people, I think it's important to realize that we are not the voice of God.  We can say the same words to unbelievers as Jesus said to the Pharisees, and think we're doing "right" because we're quoting right out of the Bible.  But most of us don't have the innate authority that Jesus did that commanded the attention of people.  Jesus could be "in their faces" on "on their cases" with total knowledge that He was doing the right thing.  That's not so true with the rest of us.

The example in the OP was given about watching mines being placed on a pathway.  Do you warn people?  Of course.  But many won't believe you.  They need "proof" — that proof can be provided by you, or they can test it themselves.  

How would you show them?  I would throw rocks or some other heavy object that I could find in order to set off one of the explosives.  Nothing like examples to prove one's point.  

In the same manner, personal testimony is one of the most powerful weapons against Satan.

Just my 2¢

[Raphael]

Don't throw ur gold to dogs (this is Christ's words right?) and serve the platter/dish of thought at exactly the right moment (this 2nd must be in Psalms)

I'm sure Christ did all that above on a continual basis.. Cause aside He has special communion and rapport with God the Father, He too was a very infinitely ancient being as being one with The Alpha and Omega.. Human ages and measurements aren't for Him, aside His now human physical body.. And that's where the camouflage is..

So following Seth Rogen's movie act (forgot the (comedy) movie title) as an appointed subpoena special deliverer.. One really needs to get the right timing for the presentation of the message, and to have it coherently comprehended and acknowledged as in accordance even with world court justice standards..

 

[joeb]

13 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

I sorta agree, but also sorta disagree with the above.  In presenting the "truth" to people, I think it's important to realize that we are not the voice of God.  We can say the same words to unbelievers as Jesus said to the Pharisees, and think we're doing "right" because we're quoting right out of the Bible.  But most of us don't have the innate authority that Jesus did that commanded the attention of people.  Jesus could be "in their faces" on "on their cases" with total knowledge that He was doing the right thing.  That's not so true with the rest of us.

The example in the OP was given about watching mines being placed on a pathway.  Do you warn people?  Of course.  But many won't believe you.  They need "proof" — that proof can be provided by you, or they can test it themselves.  

How would you show them?  I would throw rocks or some other heavy object that I could find in order to set off one of the explosives.  Nothing like examples to prove one's point.  

In the same manner, personal testimony is one of the most powerful weapons against Satan.

Just my 2¢

That was a thoughtful reply, rudywoofs.  But, and I suppose you think there is always a "but" with me, I must point out some more Biblical evidence for you.  Number one is Elijah.  He mocked the priests of Baal, openly and repeatedly.  He told Ahab and Jezebel to their faces some mighty rough things.  He was very outspoken with the people of Israel.  Number two is Elisha.  He called bears out of woods to attack those mocking him.  He also was very outspoken.  Number 3 is Jeremiah.  Number 4 is Ezekiel.  Number 5 is Paul.  He told the people of the Corinth church flat out that they hadn't repented of the evil they had allowed to enter the church.  Look also at what he said to the "judaizers".  He, for all intents and purposes, called them the agents of the devil. 

I also have a question for you.  Why are we told to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves? 

I must point out, even though I had not thought of idea of attempting to set off the mines but throwing things at them and that it is a fairly good idea, that anything heavy enough to actually set off a mine is going to require you to be well within the range of a pop-up mine that jumps up about 3 feet in the air before it explodes.  When it does explode it shoots things like ball bearing out in a complete circle around the point of explosion.  IOWs, it is a very dangerous idea.  It could very well kill both you and whoever else is within 20 yards or so of the explosion.  Or, if the mines are ieds, the explosions are so large that just the pressure wave at the close distance you would necessarily have to standing would very possibly kill both you and the person you are trying to protect.   Think about an explosion large enough to lift a 60-80 ton tank off the ground and, at the very least, blow off one of its tracks.  That's a very powerful explosion.

Mines are designed so that the pressure required to set them off is quite a bit greater than the pressure applied to them when burying them.  If they were'nt, it would a suicide mission to try to set them.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

okay... well... color me stupid... I'm not a mine expert.  

I still maintain that first person testimony is going to be best in convincing someone of anything...

[CoAspen]

Following up on what you have said, Pam, I would add that some believe that they are presenting saving truth and get very indignant if others reject their version of truth. A person could get very self righteous about what they present and do much harm. Where is the role of the Holy Spirit? The farmer pointed the seeds, neither bringing rain or sun in order for the crop to prosper. I am also reminded of the admonition to Paul, if your words are not believed, shake the dust off your feet and move on. Our issue as humans, we went direct, immediate, verifiable proof our truth is accepted instead of allowing the growth process.

[Outta Here]

Isn't this the sort of thing that intercessory prayer addresses?

[joeb]

9 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

okay... well... color me stupid... I'm not a mine expert.  

I still maintain that first person testimony is going to be best in convincing someone of anything...

I'm no mine expert either, but as usual with me, I've read about them.  I have far ranging interests and curiousities so I have knowledge about a lot of things. 

I agree that personal evangelism is the best thing for most people, but what about the person who is deliberately spreading error?  Do you think it's a good thing to allow known error to stand unopposed?  How many of the devil's logic bombs will be planted in people's hearts if error is allowed to stand unopposed?  Remember, the closer to real truth a deception is the more deceptive it is.  Very few people will be decieved by obvious error, but many will be decieved by error that begins very close to truth and can only be recognized for what it is when the error is fully developed.  By that time people become emotionally invested in the error and most will refuse to abandon the error because they have so much invested in it, especially when the error appeals to the emotions and sounds very good on the surface. 

BTW, I would never consider you stupid.  I might disagree with your positions on a lot of things but I don't believe any of our disagreements are caused by you being stupid.  I actually consider you one of the more honest people on this board.  What ever position you take, you take it honestly.  I've never seen you duck, dodge, evade, mislead, etc....I have a lot of respect for that.