Moderators Bravus Posted February 23, 2006 Moderators Share Posted February 23, 2006 In the Abu Ghraib Revisited thread CoAspen asked us as Christians to account for the genocides (I'm using that term in its full technical sense of attempting to completely wipe out a people-group from existence by killing every man, woman and child) of the Old Testament. I can think of at least two responses - neither of them very satisfying. For a fuller answer we may have to wait until we get to heaven, but it's something that as Christians we just can't brush aside and ignore. If we can't face this question and this issue honestly, our foundations are shaky. The first is the answer from the Book of Job: "I'm God, you're not, you are not competent to judge my decisions - let me be God and you be you." In other words, the fact that a God-ordered genocide is incomprehensible to us, and seems inconsistent, doesn't say anything about God, it says something about our powers of comprehension. This one is really disatisfying, but it may be the only answer possible, and it fits even for biblical literalists. The second may be more controversial, and lies in the 'how God's will is represented' versus 'God's actual will'. If kings and prophets and leaders said 'God wants us to go in there and kill every man, woman, child and animal, and bash babies' heads against walls' and it was written down that way in the Bible, it doesn't absolutely mean that that's what God commanded. This isn't satisfying either, because it puts us in the position of trying to discern the real God *through* rather than *in* the Scriptures, and I'm sure it's quite offensive to many people. But to others it's comforting, because it absolves God of being in the same category as Hitler and Pol Pot in terms of actions. I'm not trying to lay out a position here, I'm trying to take CoAspen's question seriously. There will be others with other perspectives, who may have studied the question much more deeply than me, and I hope they'll participate. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I admit I haven't studied it out thoroughly or deeply, but I'm inclined toward something similar to your second proposition there, Bravus. I take a cluebrick in this direction from such puzzling juxtapositions as, for example, scripture speaking of Pharaoh hardening his heart in one place and in another, stating God hardened it; or scripture in one place saying God told David to take a census in Israel and in another place stating it was Satan who moved David to do so. It appears to me from these seemingly "contradictory" verses that there is precedent in Scripture for things being attributed to God directly which may, in fact, have their origins as far from Him as is the devil himself. As for why? -- some would say God has a habit of taking responsibility onto Himself for what He has permitted to transpire as if He had directly ordained it. (Isaiah 45:7 is often interpreted that way.) Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Hi Bravus, Why would God do such a thing? At this point in my life I have found a satisfactory answer. Isa 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Savior: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. 4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honorable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life. That says a lot and it brings me joy and assurance. God will take care of His people and He does it in a way that answers two issues within an issue. 1. What does God do with those nations who fully reject Him? 2. How does God take care of His people? The main issue is: Does God love all people or does He have favorites, what is He really like? God wants and tries to save all people (Think Jonah warning the Ninevites) but when they reject Him and His leading, they separate themselves from Him and end up serving false gods doing horrible things (Sacrificing children in that day, and today as well, only in a more subtle way). That is the main issue (God desiring to save all humanity) and then from that we get two groups, those who love & serve Him and those who hate & reject Him. There’s also another parameter here and that is, all those nations that were destroyed by the Israelites had rejected God and in most cases had oppressed or attacked God’s people 1st and Israel was retaliating according to the leading of God. If they had not been destroyed, they would have been constantly seeking to destroy them. This happened in Israel’s history and it was a problem for them. In war the one with the best plan wins and when God comes up with a plan, it’s a sure thing and it’s for the long term victory in the plan of salvation as well as for the temporal needs of His people. Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted February 23, 2006 Administrators Share Posted February 23, 2006 A book I read awhile back was quite helpful in addressing these perplexing OT questions about God that seem irreconcilable with the NT picture presented by God in the flesh. The book is Who's Afraid of the Old Testament God? by Alden Thompson. I recommend it for anyone struggling with the OT picture of God. One thing off the top of my head that I remember in his discussion specifically about the stories that you mention was that the picture of Satan in the OT is really rather incomplete and almost nonexistent. Everything that happens, good or bad, is attributed to God. Satan doesn't seem to get credit (or is it blame?) for anything bad that happens. One explanation is that all powerful God may well have gotten credited for Satan's deeds and influence over man. This could be the result of at least two possible OT perspectives. The first simply is an incomplete understanding of Satan as an evil supernatural force on earth. Other ancient religions resolve this by good gods and bad gods, but a monotheistic religion would have to conclude that all supernatural events, both good and bad, are that of the one true God. Satan is simply not accounted for as a supernatural power. The other possible view is that an all-powerful God that is in control of everything must ultimately get credit, or blame, for everything since He created everything and controls everything, good and bad. Declining to intervene against evil when it is easily within God's power makes God responsible, therefore no matter what happens, it is God doing it. There is much more obviously to the book, but that is what I recall off the top of my head. Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Quote: One explanation is that all powerful God may well have gotten credited for Satan's deeds and influence over man. This could be the result of at least two possible OT perspectives. The first simply is an incomplete understanding of Satan as an evil supernatural force on earth. [snip]... The other possible view is that an all-powerful God that is in control of everything must ultimately get credit, or blame, for everything since He created everything and controls everything, good and bad. There is a 3rd possible factor that I am sure many are not taking into account. Man himself... The past influence of his own actions [good or bad] have influenece on current situations... For example, if we eat to the point of becoming fat while a child, we suffer from the long term effects of that, ie type 2 diabeties...As we try to change our eating habits for the purpose of loosing weight, other complications follow, ie the inability to control, bad habits of intemperate eating...And while focusing on diabetes and controling it, other things become more susepable to failure, ie paying bills..or the maintaince on the car.. IOWS, man suffers from the consequences of his own actions, not necessarily from supernatural intervention. And because we have limitations of our time, we are forced to continue with the band-aid applications to rectify national and global problems.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 You lost me there Brother Neil. How does that relate to God ordering mass genocide? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Quote: You lost me there Brother Neil. How does that relate to God ordering mass genocide? Somebody THOUGHT/WISHES/DESIRES the genocide due to some past misgiving/offense/prejudice against the race/tribe/regional people..... God had nothing to do with it. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 There is a third possibility. So far you listed God's ways are inscrutable The leaders at the time misunderstood God's will To this I have to add The genocide's never happened Remember where in the Bible they occur. It is during the Exodus, which (by using the chronology within the Bible) took place in approx 1400BC. This was about the time of the Trojan wars. The written records that we read of these events date to the Babylonian captivity, in approximately 450BC - some 950 years of poor/no record keeping and purely oral traditions later. The written records of the Trojan Wars date to about 600-800BC, and are clearly full of exageration and myth. That tale did not survive intact for 600-800 years. It is unlikely that the tales of the Exodus survived intact the extra few hundred years. When we actually go into the ground, digging in the Holy Land and in Egypt, we do not find much solid evidence for the Exodus - and certainly none for God-ordered genocide. It is more likely that the oral transmission embellished the origins of the Israelites into these heroic tales. /Bevin ps: Don't bother bringing up Ron Wyatt's fantastic nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Quote: The belief that wipeing out the enemy was justified is not unusual throughout history and still survives today. Today? Iran -> Israel? Yep, that belief still exists today. God commanding the Isrealites to kill all inhabitants (men, women & children) is no different than what He did when He flooded the world. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Actually some of the biggest trouble-spots in the world today are places where the enemies were not wiped out - leading to conflicts that have killed many more than the original genocide would have killed. Having said that, I believe the best way of destroying your enemies is to make them your friends. Something the Iraqi's, Israeli's, and Bush administration does not understand. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Perhaps the answer we seek is found in the transmission of the sins of the fathers to the children and children's children. Generational sin worsens as it passes on to our children. If I don't resolves my issues, they will often show up in my children and they will be a little worse. This is one of the reasons that it is important for us as believers to acknowledge & repent of the sins that we have inherited & cultivated. I believe that the corrupt nations in the land of Canaan had become irredeemable by the celebration of iniquity, and the unrestrained transmission of their sins to their children. Sad, but true. Shane is right on target, in identifying the flood as a pattern of this cleansing. Any attempt, (by Thompson or others) to neutralize the OT commands of God to purge the Land, will ultimately arouse skepticism into our hearts. The Bible is a book that speaks to our heart like no other, and it needs no intervention of man to do that. We need the Spirit of God to hide it in our hearts. Bless you, olger Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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