Legalization of Marijuana

[Dr. Shane]

Ellen White took a strong position on prohibition (making alcohol illegal) She supported prohibition so much she said we should vote for it even if it mean voting on Sabbath.

If Ellen White were alive today, or if God were to call forth another prophet, how would they stand on the issue of legalizing marijuana?

Now I don't know if God revealed to Ellen White that the church should support prohibition or if Ellen White believed that due to other influences. (I suspect one could find out) Nor do I know if God's will in this matter was due to inadequit protections for the family and other circumstances which have changed from that time.

Typical history books teach that prohibition was a failure. However those that supported repealing prohibition promised that if it was repealed, it would break the back of organized crime. It seems to me that repealing prohibition has proved itself to be a failure.

During prohibition the number of cases of cirrhosis declined and slowing increased each decade after prohibition was repealed. This would indicate the alcohol consumption decreased during prohibition.

The chart below shows alcohol consumption per capita. Notice the decline just before national prohibition. Many individual states were passing prohibition laws during that time which seems to have resulted in decreased consoption.

It took more than a generation (40 years) for alcohol consumption to reach the rates it was prior to WW1. That seems to indicate that alcohol prohibition was a succes.

[Dr. Shane]

Given our lessons from alcohol probition, and lessons from some other nations that have made marijuana legal, we have reason to believe that if marijuana was made legal, consumption would increase.

In the past decade various law suits have been brought against tobacco companies by states to be reimbursed health care costs that states have had to pay as a result of tobacco use. The use of tobacco increases health care costs which creates a burdon on society as a whole. If marijuana were made legal, the burdon on the health care industry would become greater.

One of the ways alcohol impairs driving is by decreasing a driver's reaction time. One of the ways marijuana impairs driving is by impairing depth preception. A driver using marijuana is more likely to tailgate others which is a primary cause of accidents.

[Dr. Shane]

Jeannie:

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My DH (who had many parolees as his patients) advocated decriminalizing marijuana and other street drugs. Not legalizing them -- the intoxication they caused would still be illegal -- but only taking away the criminal penalties. If street drugs could be purchased at any drug store, the same way alcohol is now purchased, it would reduce the retail price of the stuff, thus destroy the black market, and do away with the street crimes such as robbery which are committed by drug addicts in order to get money to support their habit.

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That is not typically what is meant by decriminalizing marijuana.

Decriminalization of Marijuana in Canada

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...the Justice Minister doesn't plan to go so far as to make marijuana legal, he is expected to introduce legislation in 2003 to decriminalize the use and possession of small amounts of marijuana for personal use. In other words, the use and possession of small amounts of marijuana would remain illegal, but jail sentences and criminal records would be replaced with fines.

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That is a far cry from legalization and is something I could support.

[Ron Lambert]

Shane, I believe that the wrong lessons are being learned from Prohibition. Prohibition largely worked. It only failed after many years when Christians became apathetic and did not turn out to vote against repeal. That is the real lesson to be learned--not to take for granted past victories, but to be eternally vigilant, and not give up victories already gained out of apathy.

Make no mistake, the repeal of Prohibition was a disaster, one of the truly worst things that has ever happened in America. How many lives, marriages, and families, have been destroyed by alchohol since Prohibition was repealed?

The argument many give in defense of legalizing marijuana and other drugs is a common one. At first glance, it seems persuasive. But look a little deeper.

(1) If "recreational" use of such drugs is legalized, it will ammount to society officially giving its consent to "recreational" use of these drugs. God judges societies as well as individuals. If our society declares something that is evil to be good, then shall we not face an accounting over it with God--especially since in a democracy, we have a part in government?

(2) If such drugs are made readily available, then multitudes more people--especially children and youth--will be exposed to them and become addicted, who otherwise might never have been tempted.

[David_McQueen]

It is not so cut and dry unfortunately and a number of issues have to be considered here.

The reality is that lots of people smoke and infuse marijuana as pain relief and emotional escapism even though it is illegal. As such the so called war on drugs is not working. I personally often wonder if the amount of money expended on criminalising posession and imprisoning those who have it could be better spent on fines and restorative procedure.

The concerns of addiction and increased use are a bit of a misnomer really. Studies in Holland have shown that the contained use of it is acually better than prohibition. It also prevents the mixing and blending prevalent in the black market, ie.skunk, high grade and other blends where cocaine, scouring powder, bicarbonate of soda, etc are mixed in with marijuana. The rules regarding sale, driving under the influence, etc are even more punitive than those in countries where use is illegal.

I dont advocate the use of marijuana in any form, but to be honest neither do I think prohibition works.

[Dr. Shane]

The Canadian idea of decriminalazation is worth considering. No one would ever be sent to jail or prison for use or possession of a small amount of marijuana - only fines would be given. If fines are not paid the person's wages can be garnished. The only jailable offenses would be possesion of large quantities (intent to sell), the sale and transportation of the drug.

[bevin]

I just came off a 12 hr shift on an ambulance in a 250K people city.

We see many more problems caused by TOBACCO than alcohol.

We seem many MANY more problems caused by poor upbringing than by almost any other cause.

If you really want to solve the damn problem, start funding education properly.

Oh, I forgot, Shane backs Bush and his tax cuts and huge debts to move taxpayers money into the pockets of his cronies - oil, military hardware makers, and Homeland Security shysters.

Excuse me if I sound bitter. I just got home AFTER the shift from a 4 hour Homeland Security boondoogle where they are making us all do some worthless training in some beaucratic mumbo brain-bubble RATHER THAN SOLVING THE DAMN PROBLEM.

And everyone at the bottom of the pile in EMS/Fire/Police knows just how badly this agency is messing up - and how many billions of $$$ are being wasted on the wrong issues.

All because Bush-selected incompetent cronies are in charge.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

Point well made... tabacco causes a lot of problems. If marijuana was legal it would be cause the same type of problems too.

The ramblings kind of remind me of Rush Limbaugh when Bill Clinton was President. Rush could never ever see anything good with Clinton and whenever anything went wrong it was always Clinton's fault.

[CyberGuy]

Yes we all agree that Tabacco causes a lot of health problems. I agree Marijuana is not much better but let us be consistant here. Ban both or legalize both. If both are legalized then heavily tax Marijuana like Tabacco is and use that funds to educated the people against the evils of tobacco and Marijuana. Marijuna is just a wild leaf that has some properties that give people a high when smoked. Indians knew of that just like the eastern Indians knew of Tabacco and introduced the English to the evils of tabacco.

My point is this. Does it solve our prison problems by putting people in Jail for smoking Marijuna. I think it would be better served to fine them or make them serve long community services rather than to take up the tax payers money by serving time in prison. That is pointless In My Opinion.

[Jeannieb43]

Bevin, you've got it right.

The U.S. is right now in the grip of a corrupt administration. Legislation to benefit the rich, and big business, is the only thing that carries any weight. The little guys, and the middle-class, are getting squeezed.

Unfortunately, I don't know whether the U.S. will ever get any better in the future. I don't see a strong opposition party coming up. In other words, I feel like this is probably the beginning of the end.

[Neil D]

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Excuse me if I sound bitter. I just got home AFTER the shift from a 4 hour Homeland Security boondoogle where they are making us all do some worthless training in some beaucratic mumbo brain-bubble RATHER THAN SOLVING THE DAMN PROBLEM.

And everyone at the bottom of the pile in EMS/Fire/Police knows just how badly this agency is messing up - and how many billions of $$$ are being wasted on the wrong issues.

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Ho boy, is that ever correct.... It truely does seem that the guys at the bottome of the dog pile know just what is working and just what doesn't work and seems to be doing what some "bean counter" up above him feels is necessary, but doesn't have the experience to deal with the problem.

Just like in health care, we have boomers coming into health care, a large segment of the population, but goverment doesn't want to pay for the health care that others have had... If it cost the goverment/insurance a $1.00 to fix your father, now they want to spend $0.40 to fix them for the same thing....Of course, CEO/CFO need thier millions to 'run' the hospitals and the real people who worry about the patients are the ones taking care of them....the RN, the RTs, CNAs,.... it's just plain stupid.

[Ron Lambert]

I think this is probably the main difference between social liberals and social conservatives. Social liberals do not take seriously the realities of good and evil, and typically deny that evil even exists as an objective reality. So to them everything is relative, and arguments based on the morality of declaring something to be acceptable when it is immoral and destructive mean nothing to them--they shrug it off as irrelevant to anything in the real world. Such people also typically fail to see the wisdom and necessity of taking a firm, even proactive stand against evil. Like Neville Chamberlain of pre-WWII Britain, they would rather temporize and equivocate, and wait until the evil has grown so enormous and deadly that it cannot be ignored, and it takes a world war to put it down.

This lesson is repeated over and over again throughout history, and yet the social liberals never seem to learn the lesson to be learned. Evil does exist, and it is wisdom, it is righteous, to oppose it firmly and as proactively as possible.

[bevin]

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Like Neville Chamberlain of pre-WWII Britain, they would rather temporize and equivocate

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We have been around this one before.

Chamberlain declared "peace in our time" and started an incredible build up of England's military strength. He bought England 12 months, and sacrificed his personal reputation to do so.

Those who don't know their history are doomed to invent it.

The case of Iraq, however, is NOT the same as Germany, and there is no reason to believe the Bush Boondoggle in Iraq has done ANYTHING to improve the security of the world.

Yes - most Iraqi's believe that they are better off without Saddam. Most American's think they would be better off without George W Bush - whose approval ratings hit a record low of 32% this week...

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

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The U.S. is right now in the grip of a corrupt administration. Legislation to benefit the rich, and big business, is the only thing that carries any weight.

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Enron's corruption has its connections to the Democrat party during the Clinton Administration. It gave a whopping $420K to the Democrat party starting in 1995 and had easy access to both Clinton and Gore. In 1998 Energy Secretary Federico Pena encouraged electrical legislation that would benefit Enron. Clinton's Treasury Secretary, Robert Rubin, recieved $40 million from Citigroup to help with the Enron account during the early part of the Bush Administration.

What is my point? IF the current adminstration is corrupt, it is no different than previous administrations. So let's keep prespective.

I think we were discussing marijuana legislation in light of the Spirit of Prophecy.

[Ron Lambert]

Bevin, history is clear that at every point, Hitler had issued standing orders to his army to back off at the first hint of mobilization and real intent to intervene on the part of Britain and its allies. But he was allowed to invade and take the Sudetanland, and Austria, and build up Germany's size and resources, until only an all-out World War could have stopped him.

The attempts to rehabilitate Neville Chamberlain are foolish and grossly ignorant of the facts. World War II would not have been necessary if Hitler had been opposed firmly right away. Hitler would have backed off. Neville Chamberlain is a perfect example of how totally foolish the social liberals' viewpoint is and always has been. It is their unprincipled, cowardly attempt to avoid war that has always caused war, by encouraging would-be counquerors to believe they can get away with aggression because no one has the will to stop them.

[David_McQueen]

I am sure Ellen would have just been as opposed to marijuana being legalised in her day. The thing is that of course we oppose anything that abuses the body. We do not support or condone things like alcohol and tobacco, however there are cultures were things like alcohol sit readily within a community without there being abuse, like the Jewish community for example.

Alcohol has been around from day dot. Indeed Lot and Noah found out the side effects of knocking back to much of the stuff. However scripture tended to focus then more about getting drunk on strong drink rather than a prohibition.

I wish this was an easy subject that we could be so black and white about it, but am sure that many of you in the medical prophesion could testify that morphine(legal) can be abused as much as cocaine(illegal). Whilst yes we can voice our opposition to the legalisaztion of what are considered recreational drugs we need to recognise that many similar drugs, whether as opiates, stimulants or depressants do exist with the same kind of chemical structure, capabilites of addiction and ability to be abused.

[bevin]

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Bevin, history is clear that at every point,

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ROFLOL

/Bevin

[bevin]

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I am sure Ellen would have just been as opposed to marijuana being legalised in her day.

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It was the Harrison Narcotic Act of 1914 that limited the indiscriminate use of opium, cocaine, and similar drugs.

EGW died in 1915.

Throughout almost all her life opium, cocaine, etc were all legal medications that anyone could buy without a prescription.

She did not oppose their being legally available.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

Right or wrong, she did oppose using drugs as medicine.

[Planey]

What is a drug?

More specifically, what did EGW mean by her use of the term?

For instance, is aspirin a drug? Paracetamaol? Ibuprofen?

I have end renal failure, I take a raft of medications - atacand, adalat, pressin, diamicron, monopril, tenormin among others. Should I immediately discontinue these treatments?Are natural remedies (echinacea, St John's wort, etc) still drugs or are they ok?

I am interested.

Graeme

[bevin]

The only decent effective drugs available when EGW wrote her condemnation were opium and quinine. Aspirin was not available as a pure med, but could be gotten from herbal teas. No antibiotics were known. Quinine was being prescribed for many things that it did not work for.

Her remarks do not apply to modern medicine.

It is a shame God did not show her that quinine was, and still is, highly effective against malaria. It is a stunning indictment of the claim that she was far ahead of her time in medicine that she did not know it was transmitted by mosquitos and cured by quinine.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

Bevin's summerary is pretty much the prevailing wisdom in the Adventist church today.

I know Ellen White was influenced a lot by other Christian thought of her time - not just by God in visions. I am not aware that she claimed that God ever showed her that quinine was not an effective drug.

[Ron Lambert]

Ellen G. White explicitly warned against "preparations of mercury and calomel," (Spiritual Gifts, Volume 4A, page 139, paragraph 2) which used to be commonly prescribed. We know today about the harmfulness of mercury. (Calomel is mercury chloride.) In the same sentence, though, she also warned against quinine. (Quinine is extracted from the bark of the South American cinchona tree.) Like you said, Shane, quinine used to be the main treatment for malaria. More effective medicines are used now. But after doing some research, I find that Ellen G. White did have good reason to warn against use of quinine.

Beginning around 1850, quinine was used as a prophylaxis to prevent or mitigate diseases in general (typically in situations where antibiotics would be prescribed today). Such use would have been an overuse, and may have involved dosage levels that were dangerous, as indicated in the following extract from a Wickipedia article:

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Use of quinine in therapeutic doses may cause cinchonism; in excessive doses or rare cases, it may even cause death, usually by rapid pulmonary edema. In very large doses quinine also acts as an abortifacient; quinine is also considered a Category X teratogen by the FDA, meaning that it can cause birth defects (especially deafness) if taken by a woman during pregnancy.

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Quinine is a flavor component of tonic water. According to tradition, the bitter taste of antimalarial quinine tonic led British colonials in India to mix it with gin, thus creating the gin and tonic cocktail.

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In the United States the Food and Drug Administration limits tonic water quinine to 83 ppm which is one-half to one-quarter the concentration used in therapeutic tonic.

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Link for above: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinine

This indicates that Ellen G. White had very good reason to warn against use of quinine, as it was commonly being used after 1850 to treat many things other than malaria. Also seems like a good additional reason to avoid gin and tonic, especially women who are pregnant.

Following is a description of cinchonism, which can be caused by quinine:

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Symptoms of mild cinchonism (which may occur from standard therapeutic doses of quinine) include flushed and sweaty skin, tinnitus, blurred vision, impaired hearing, confusion, reversible high-frequency hearing loss, headache, abdominal pain, rashes, lichenoid photosensitivity [1], vertigo, dizziness, dysphoria (feeling uneasy), nausea and vomiting, and diarrhea.

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Large doses of quinine may lead to severe symptoms of cinchonism: skin rashes, deafness, somnolence, diminished visual acuity or blindness, anaphylactic shock, and disturbances in cardiac rhythm or conduction, death from cardiotoxicity.

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Patients treated with quinine may also suffer from hypoglycemia (especially if administered intravenously) and hypotension (low blood pressure). In very high doses (higher than those used to treat malaria) during the first trimester of pregnancy quinine may act as an abortifacient, or cause birth defects, especially deafness.

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Link for above: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinchonism