When Public opinion swings to the conservatives

[Neil D]

[:"brown"] Shane, I know already that you and I are going to get into this...But this is what happens when neo-conservatives religionists start living out thier hate...They desecrate a valued soldier by condemning him in front of his relatives....This is a sad day when these guys chase soldier funerals.... [/]

opinions clash before soldier's memorial

Opinions, not fists, clash before soldier’s memorial

By WADE LARSON

February 27, 2006

There was a twisted sort of First Amendment irony at the memorial service of Army 1st Lt. Garrison Avery on Saturday.

For more than an hour before the ceremony began, 15 members of a religious group based in Topeka, Kan., protested across the road from the service, saying that God killed Avery and other soldiers as punishment for America’s tolerance of homosexuals.

The group from Topeka is led by the Rev. Fred Phelps and is made up mostly of Phelps’ extended family. Those in attendance Saturday paced up and down the block shouting, singing and holding signs with messages such as “God sent the IEDs,” referring to the Improvised Explosive Devices used by insurgents in Iraq. Some wore flags wrapped upside-down around their waists.

“You killed those soldiers by your sin,” one protester shouted.

However, the roar of six motorcycles rolling into the First Evangelical Free Church parking lot momentarily drowned their shouts out. The roar of the bikes seemed to capture the essence of the Veterans of Foreign Wars Patriot Guard Riders’ mission.

The VFW Patriot Guard Riders is comprised of VFW members who share a common interest in motorcycles and use that interest to further VFW causes. One of those causes is to shield soldiers’ families from disruption during their mourning.

Attendees of the memorial service walked between two rows of the riders to the doors of the church. More than 100 veterans and members of their families from the Midwest area came to pay tribute to Avery and to show support for his family.

Avery, a 2000 Lincoln High School graduate, was buried at the U.S. Military Academy in West Point. He was killed when a bomb exploded near his Humvee in Baghdad, Iraq. His parents live in Lincoln.

Avery’s uncle moved throughout the crowd, thanking people for their support. The riders mingled on the sidewalk, talking about where they were from and which unit they had been in during their time in the service. The shouts and signs of the protesters were forgotten.

“What protesters?” said one Patriot Guard Rider about the opposing group.

Many of the riders’ jackets were covered in assorted patches paying homage to their military backgrounds.

Police were visible around the area in case of any conflict, but they had little to do besides stand and watch. Both groups kept to their own sides of the road.“As far as my understanding of the gospel, they’re just sadly confused,” said Tom Pappas, one of the onlookers.

As an answer to the protests, the riders and other supporters stood in a line stretching the block and turned determined backs to the protestors.

Among those on the sidewalk were members of local churches and others who opposed the messages displayed by the protesters across the street. Clean-shaven, well-dressed men in suits and ties stood next to bikers wearing black leather jackets and chaps.

Shortly after the ceremony began at 11 a.m., the protesters began to pack their signs into square green cases and moved toward their vehicles. Members of Patriot Guard Riders still on the sidewalk began to move toward the church.

But one group of four veterans was still standing. Two of them began to fold the American flag with slow, meticulous reverence.

The messages across the street made no difference. As they folded the flag, no one spoke.

SEEN AND HEARD

Participants made themselves heard on both sides of the street before the memorial service of Army 1st Lt. Garrison Avery. Picketers from Kansas who often travel to soldiers or AIDS victims’ funerals to protest America’s stance on gay rights made their opinion known outside the service.

Shouted by the protesters:

- “If you don’t repent, America is doomed.”

- “God is your enemy.”

- “Turn the country over to the fags, they’ll come home in body bags.”

- “Waa, Waa” (imitating crying)

- “God hates America, land of the fags” (sung)

Phrases among the protesters’ signs:

- “God Hates America”

- “God Hates You”

- “Don’t Pray for the USA”

- “Pro-Gay Bush”

- “God sent the IEDs”

- “Nebraskan Taliban”

[Bravus]

God seriously needs to limber up a fireball for Fred Phelps.

[Dr. Shane]

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But this is what happens when neo-conservatives religionists start living out thier hate...

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Sounds like this is a small, isolated group of wackos. I don't think it is fair to paint religious, neo-conservatives with the same brush. That would be like painting all pro-life groups the same as the wackos that kill abortion doctors.

[Planey]

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Shane said:

Sounds like this is a small, isolated group of wackos. I don't think it is fair to paint religious, neo-conservatives with the same brush. That would be like painting all pro-life groups the same as the wackos that kill abortion doctors.

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Are we in danger of doing the same thing to Muslims because of the action of terrorists?

Graeme

[Dr. Shane]

It doesn't seem that way. Even right after 9/11 people were distinguishing between modern muslems and fundamentalists. President Bush has really went the extra mile to not paint all muslems with the same brush which has set a good example for the rest of the country.

We should learn from that and apply it to other groups. Not all liberals are the same. There are left-wing fringe liberals and mainstream moderate liberals. Not all conservatives are the same. There are right-wing radicals and mainstream moderate conservatives. The neo-conservatives are a group within the conservatives that support Bush's brand of conservativism - specifically the War on Terror. I see no indication in this story that these wackos should even be grouped in with neo-conservatives.

[Neil D]

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Are we in danger of doing the same thing to Muslims because of the action of terrorists?

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The American public has told their representatives that they did not like the sale of US ports to be over seen by the UNinted Emerates, an arab country where many of the 9/11 terrorists came from....

So, in some respect, yes, we are in danger of painting all Muslims as extreemists...

[Nicodema]

I share your outrage, Neil -- I really do -- I think Phelps is despicable, quite frankly, and have spent many an email with friends expressing our appallment (appallation? whatever the word is!) at his outrageous conduct and his total lack of consideration for human beings in their time of grief.

However, I think Shane is right when he says Phelps and his type are extreme hate-filled wackos and do not represent the mainstream right-wingers. Calling Phelps and his band of hatemongers a representation of them is just as inaccurate as calling the most inconsiderate and irrational eco-terrorists a representation of all left-wingers.

I thought Phelps was heinous enough when he was showing up at the funerals of AIDS sufferers and victims of "gay bashing" crimes who'd died and spewing his "God hates fags" rhetoric there. I mean come on, no matter how vehemently opposed you are to homosexuality, no matter how much you imagine yourself chosen to crusade "against" it, there is basic common human decency and respect for grieving people, not to burden their sorrowing hearts any further with ANYTHING, is like so elementary it's inconceivable that anyone over the age of 6 would fail to grasp it intuitively at the very least -- unless they were a psychopath, which I think Phelps may very well be. But he really shot himself in the foot when he started spewing his vitriolic filth at the funerals of soldiers. I'm sure if any RW-leaning folks sympathized with Phelps before, it stopped then and there. Everyone knows I vehemently oppose the war but unleashing scathing vitriol under the guise of a mock anti-war protest at someone's funeral is NOT the way to go to make one's point. It's just not the time nor the place. It's just not considerate of them and their feelings. It's just NOT RIGHT. There's a time to press one's point and there's a time to show consideration for someone else's feelings. I think it's pretty elementary to discern which of those categories a FUNERAL fits into, for crying out loud!

Hounding and harrassing grieving people at ANY time with forced subjection to such blatant hate and cruelty -- but in particular while they are in the very process of burying lost loved ones -- ranks down on the scale with baby-raping and thrill killing as far as depravity goes, if you ask me.

Phelps is a microcosmic study in everything thinking, feeling, decent human beings who are non-believers despise about "churchianity". We can learn from him ... learn what NOT to do, what NOT to be.

[Neil D]

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However, I think Shane is right when he says Phelps and his type are extreme hate-filled wackos and do not represent the mainstream right-wingers. Calling Phelps and his band of hatemongers a representation of them is just as inaccurate as calling the most inconsiderate and irrational eco-terrorists a representation of all left-wingers.

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I don't know, Nico... Seems pretty right wing to me...Of course, I think that those who are to the right wingers are pretty extreeme. Right of mainstream is ok, but right wingers are, in my book, extreeme..These guys have pegged the needle hard at right wingers...

And like Bravus, I think God has a very warm spot for these guys....

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Hounding and harrassing grieving people at ANY time with forced subjection to such blatant hate and cruelty -- but in particular while they are in the very process of burying lost loved ones -- ranks down on the scale with baby-raping and thrill killing as far as depravity goes, if you ask me.

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Hmmmm...."bottom feeders" and "scumbuckets" come to mind....

And yet, there are some who view flag burning, with the same intensity, as I do these people....

And as much as you, Shane, want to say that the public is mainstream/liberal, I bring this report to the forfront that the public opinion is, or has gone to the right, and is willing to embarrass to preserve thier way of living...

Can imprisoning be too far behind..?

[Dr. Shane]

I have to add that Rev. Pat Robertson seems to be about as radical as Phelps. His comments after Sharon's stroke were dispicable.

[gina i]

Phelps & Robertson run hate groups. I wish that one day those people that follow them will realize this. Makes me so so so sad.

[Nicodema]

I have to admit ... I hate hate-groups. Does that mean those of us who hate the hate-groups have our own anti-hate-group hate-group?

[Dr. Shane]

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven... A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."

Our problem is we often hate the things we should love and love the things we should hate