If there was one change the Church could do in 2017

[Gregory Matthews]

Green, every denominational employer for whom I have worked has expected that I work more than 8 - 5, 40 hours a week and at no extra pay.  SDA pastors are clearly expected to work more than an 8 l- 5 job.

By the way, in both my service as a military chaplain and as a VA chaplain, I was expected to work additional hours at no additional pay.  That expectation even included a time when I was an hourly worker and only paid by the hour for the hours that I worked.  Even then, I was expected to put in unpaid hours.

NOTE:  For aprox. 10 years, as a VA employee, I was an hourly worker officially expected to work 20 hours a week for much of that time.  When first hired  it was at less than 20 hours a week of official pay.

As to ethics and who one works for:  By accepting pay for  services rendered, one incurs an ethical obligation toward the human source of that pay.  Therefore any Conference LE leader should avoid even the appearance of evil by not competing with the other LEs in the sale of literature.

NOTE:  I am well aware that if you wished, you could propose a situation where I might say differently.  Let us not go that route.  I am simply responding to your post and the way that you worded it.

 

 

[Ron Amnsn]

16 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

I believe the church most needs a change in structural philosophy.  The church must cease and desist from its continual efforts to centralize, to organize under a single leadership entity or organization, to legitimize and enforce "memorandums of understanding" upon supporting ministries in an effort to essentially annex them to the church, and in general to "bureaucratize" the work of the Lord's servants.

I agree.  The concept of there being one "true" denomination is problematic because the organization becomes the focus of attention.  Naturally, the power-hungry will seek to gain control of it, while the devout will seek to keep it pure, and it's very difficult to tell the difference, even within one's self. 

The Bible tells us to confess our sins to one another, but doing that --especially when it is denominational leadership that has erred-- threatens to tarnish "the denominational name" or reputation, so confessing the mistakes of the organization and owning up to them often goes out the window.  The results of that are debilitating spiritually.

I don't see anywhere in Scripture where Jesus authorized his followers to form a denomination.  Even the word "church" doesn't belong in the Bible, if it were translated correctly. 

When Jesus was on earth, he operated largely outside the realm of the existing organized religious authority and structure.  Jesus didn't need religious power or political influence. 

A re-evaluation and change of structural philosophy is definitely needed.

[Green Cochoa]

5 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

As to ethics and who one works for:  By accepting pay for  services rendered, one incurs an ethical obligation toward the human source of that pay.  Therefore any Conference LE leader should avoid even the appearance of evil by not competing with the other LEs in the sale of literature.

NOTE:  I am well aware that if you wished, you could propose a situation where I might say differently.  Let us not go that route.  I am simply responding to your post and the way that you worded it.

No man can serve two masters.  I serve the Heavenly one.  The human authorities do not have the right to tell me how to serve Him.

[Gregory Matthews]

Green:  Then they have the right to separate you from their employment and financial  pays.

When you accept their funds, then they have a right to tell you what to do.

At that point you have the right to say "no" and separate from their employment.  No problem.

[Kevin H]

20 hours ago, Sojourner said:

Would the 1844 doctrine exist if Ellen White had not had a vision about it? Why is it that no other Christian group or theologians have been able to look at the scripture and come up with the same year and resultant doctrine? 

Yes it would have. No, no other church or theologian have formulated quite what we have. But they all have the different elements spread among different churches and theologians. Some have even been discussing with our theologians in forming their own doctrine of judgment and like ours even if they don't buy every detail of it.

There is a big difference between if we were to claim to have this doctrine but with nothing to back it up. Here again like I said you can learn about the cycles from with both the Investigative Judgment and the Year day theory are applications of in Henri Frankfort and others "Before Philosophy" The year-day cycle is common in the ancient world. Scholars in things like Egyptology, and other ancient studies all have the year-day theory. Two independent papri prove that the decree for the decree to rebuild and restore was effective on the day of atonement 457 BC. etc. etc. No the others have not put it together like we did, but you can find all the aspects of the doctrine spread out among the other churches and theologians and historians. So which other person's view should we give up so that we don't have our doctrine. As I said if no one had any of the parts then maybe we are wrong. But when we keep finding parts of it spread among the others that indicated that we are right.

 

[Green Cochoa]

On 01/04/2017 at 5:26 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

Green:  Then they have the right to separate you from their employment and financial  pays.

When you accept their funds, then they have a right to tell you what to do.

At that point you have the right to say "no" and separate from their employment.  No problem.

This type of "ethical" thinking diverges significantly from the work ethic taught by Mrs. White.  She makes it clear that individual liberties in service to God must be respected, and that no individual should feel it his or her duty to dictate to others what or how to do the work.  There is a stark contrast between working together in harmony, and lording it over each other, "as the Gentiles do."  Jesus taught His disciples a different way than the typical "hierarchy."  It seems many in our church today still haven't gotten His message.  Oh, and perhaps shockingly to some, Mrs. White advocated church support for independent ministry at times.  Furthermore, she goes so far as to recommend doctors be paid by tithe monies to work alongside pastors in gospel work.  Our church has seemingly a narrow vision of what the work should look like--mostly patterned after the world.  That's why I have urged in this topic a change of structural philosophy.  This is truly a needed change.  And I believe until the change is made (will the "old guard" have to pass on before it can happen?), the church will never be able to join hands with the laity in a cooperation that will finish the work.  Yet until that cooperation is reached, the work will not be finished--according to Mrs. White.

[Gregory Matthews]

Green said:

  There is a stark contrast between working together in harmony, and lording it over each other, "as the Gentiles do." 

Recently, one of the area SDA congregations in the area where I  live decided that in an attempt to reach people in their area who had not been reached, the congregation would sponsor a "Creation Health" meetings.

For the purpose of this discussion, let us say that the Head Elder in that congregation decided that he  needed to conduct a series of meetings, on the same date and at the same time as the CH meetings. 

I would say that in the above situation, the local congregation would have every right to tell the Head Elder that he/she could not tell people that those meetings were sponsored by the local congregation.

Being open, I will say that a better course of action might be to have both meetings.  I would say that perhaps God could lead in both.  but, that is not my point.  My point is the right of the local congregation to decide to only sponsor one.

I can understand that you probably feel that in the past you have been victimized by people who have lorded it over you.  Perhaps you have.  Your experiences are a part of your personal life.  But, I would ask you this:  Can you say with confidence that you have never done the same to others?

  

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

In psychology, in working with people, one task may be to help  people to become aware the power that they may have.  Yes, there may be consequences of exercising that power.  But, people have power.

This is true within the Church.

I am reminded of a congregation that had been asked to consider an evangelistic series and the Conference had recommended a person.  That person took over the main Sabbath service, where he presented his thinking as to what should happen if he did a series.  Following his presentation, the local leaders were to meet and decide, with the individual congregational members having the opportunity to share their thinking.

At the end of the service I found the Head Elder.  I asked him if he had noted the number of people who had walked out of the service while the  man was still preaching.  When he said that he had noted it, I responded:  The message they were telling you is that this congregation is not going to support him in any meetings that he holds.  If he holds meetings here, they will fail, due to a lack of support.  He responded that he agreed with me and he would recommend that this person not come to hold meetings.  That is what happened.

I am not going to name names in this public forum.  But, I could do so.  I am aware to congregational pastors who have said "NO" to high level elected denominational officials.

People have power. 

 

 

 

[Green Cochoa]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Can you say with confidence that you have never done the same to others?

Yes, I can.  At least, in my mature life.  (Let's leave childhood out, ok?)

1) In most cases I was not placed in a position where I could exercise any degree of authority.

2) In the places where I was in charge, I granted large liberties to those under me to do as they saw fit, in their own wisdom and service to the Lord.

 

Most administrators do not do as I did.  I believe their spirit of control, however, runs contrary to scripture and Ellen White.  Mrs. White said no one should hunger for positions of authority.  Unfortunately, the ones usually in such positions are there because they much desired to be.  The times when I was in authority were not because I had desired such, but because others chose me for that position.  In every case, their choice came as a surprise to me.

I discovered, as the one in charge, that there were two kinds of workers:

1) Those who thrived in the liberties granted them, and who were motivated to shine by them; and

2) Those who were so accustomed to being told what to do that they were lost in the environment of "do your best work for the Lord."

 

One of my staff in group 1 went on to work at another institution, with high recommendation from me.  At institution #2, the freedoms were those of the usual hierarchical system--i.e. they were expected to follow orders.  This staff member did not do well in that environment, and ended up leaving and/or being let go/fired.  On the other side, those who've grown dependent on following someone else's will on things do not find adequate structure in freedom, and will not do well.  Mrs. White addresses the latter condition and points the finger of blame toward those of authority who in the past trained such workers, stripping them of their God-given rights.

[Gregory Matthews]

Green, I am not going to personalize this discussion by focusing on your life and whether or not you do what you criticize others for doing.  This forum is not the place for such.  I do appreciate your response.

Again, I do not in any way challenge you as to your personal experience.

But, I will comment further on your comments in regard to the denomination, at least as I understand them, and as I have experienced them.

*  Fundamental to this issue is the individual that the power that each person has.   None of us can totally control the circumstances of our lives.  But, to a greater, or lessor extent each of us has some level of freedom as to how we respond to the circumstances that we are in, even if we do not have total freedom. On some levels, we all have the power to say "no."

*  If we decide to say no, that may mean that our relationship is ended, either through our choice, of by others with the power to end it.    But, in either case, the power is in our hands.

*  I can personally testify that I have done such, both in the U.S. Army, as an employee of the Veterans' Administration, and in working for a SDA Conference.  Now, I have paid a price for doing such.  In the Army it cost me promotions.  In the VA, it cost me a supervisory positon.  As a denominational pastor, I chose to leave congregational ministry, which I deeply loved, and move into another field of ministry.  But, in every situation, I am deeply convinced that God was able to use me in ministry and protected me when people whom I had made angry wanted to terminate my employment.

*  Green, you come across to me as strongly independent.  I can understand as so am I.   You probably do not realize the extent to which I am independent.  IOW  I am much more like you than you realize.  As a very independent person, one of the struggles that I have   is to work cooperatively with others.  You come across to me as having the same issue in your life.  Yes, I may be wrong.  But, that is how you come across to me.

*  You reference EGW as to your understanding of comments that she has made about not lording it over others.  I will suggest, and you will probably know the references, both EGW and the Bible talk about the importance of cooperatively working together on common goals.  In fact, that is part of the Biblical admonition that we should not neglect to worship together.

*  I can say that God has used me, to include my independence, to accomplish tasks the God has given me.  I will also say that denominational authorities have recognized such.  But, this post is not gong to center on me and how God has used me.

*  Instead I will simply say that God has taken imperfect people like me and placed us in positions where we could best be used, and has attempted to mature us in the process.  I will suggest that the same can apply to you.  I do not see you as perfect,  just as I am not perfect.  I do not believe that God is through with you.  God may have much more in mind for you if you will listen and respond.

 

Blessings on you, Green.

 

 

[GayatfootofCross]

To welcome and love on people who look totally bizarre

and baptize and let hold office if so inclined with their fabulous gifts.

and not be like other clubs/cults for a change.

 

It can only happen if the real Jesus becomes the Center of the Center.

 

 

[BigMark]

Less Ellen and more scripture. Work on plugging up the holes than enable 300,000 people to leave the church every year. 

[Nic Samojluk]

On 12/31/2016 at 10:21 AM, Stan said:

If there was one change the Church could do in 2017, what would that be?

Do away with the Adventist "Guidelines on Abortion," and request that both La Sierra University and Loma Linda University return the money donated by the greatest abortionist in the history of California. Judas did that much. He did return the blood 30 pieces of silver to those who had bribed him.

[LifeHiscost]

On 1/6/2017 at 6:23 PM, BigMark said:

Less Ellen and more scripture. Work on plugging up the holes than enable 300,000 people to leave the church every year. 

To accept less of God's gifts and efforts than in earlier generations, to protect His followers in these last days would seem counter productive to our eternal safety.

8Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 9Resist him, standing firm in your faith and in the knowledge that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kinds of suffering.… 1 Peter 5

30I can do nothing by Myself ...John 5

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

 

[Zach Wasaka]

I think the Church could work on the unemployment amongst the youngest generations in our church.

[Zach Wasaka]