Murders depicted in the Bible

[Kevin Straub]

10 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Number 1 of course!

We see it differently. The Lake of Fire is not God. The experience of the quenchless fire is the presence of God convicting the sinner in judgment. The Lake of Fire comes after every being has gone through the unquenchable fire. Lake of Fire is the final cleanup. Every rebel is already dead and this is when everything is taken out of existence, even matter itself. Note in Revelation that "Death and Hell (the grave)" are cast into this Lake. It is not a lake of molten sulphur. It is the final step before the new creation is performed by God.

[Kevin Straub]

9 hours ago, APL said:

 

Satan plants in our minds that sin is not destructive agent, that God is.  Satan takes a verse such as Matthew 10:28 and tells us that it is God that we need to fear.  Satan tells us that God is a severe judge.  Satan leads us to look at disease and death as punishment inflicted by God.  Not only is He the originator of all, but He is the life of everything that lives. It is His life that we receive in the sunshine, in the pure, sweet air, in the food which builds up our bodies and sustains our strength. It is by His life that we exist, hour by hour, moment by moment. Except as perverted by sin, all His gifts tend to life, to health and joy. It is sin that destroys.  As EGW says, Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon death as proceeding from God, as punishment inflicted because of sin.

ALL power in the universe has one source, God. The Creator so respects man's free will, that he gives him power to do that which is contrary to the divine will. This power however is limited; but God gives man unlimited power to do that which is according to his will.  There is one we need to fear.  It is not Satan, other men, or God. 

True. The one we need to fear is ourselves.

“The same power that upholds nature is working also in man. The same great laws that guide alike the star and the atom control human life. The laws that govern the heart's action, regulating the flow of the current of life to the body, are the laws of the mighty Intelligence that has the jurisdiction of the soul. From Him all life proceeds. Only in harmony with Him can be found its true sphere of action. For all the objects of His creation the condition is the same--a life sustained by receiving the life of God, a life exercised in harmony with the Creator's will. To transgress His law--physical, mental, or moral--is to place one's self out of harmony with the universe, to introduce discord, anarchy, ruin” (Ed 99.2) [see also Eze. 7:3, 4].

[APL]

5 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

True. The one we need to fear is ourselves.

“The same power that upholds nature is working also in man. The same great laws that guide alike the star and the atom control human life. The laws that govern the heart's action, regulating the flow of the current of life to the body, are the laws of the mighty Intelligence that has the jurisdiction of the soul. From Him all life proceeds. Only in harmony with Him can be found its true sphere of action. For all the objects of His creation the condition is the same--a life sustained by receiving the life of God, a life exercised in harmony with the Creator's will. To transgress His law--physical, mental, or moral--is to place one's self out of harmony with the universe, to introduce discord, anarchy, ruin” (Ed 99.2) [see also Eze. 7:3, 4].

 

But Jesus bade His disciples, "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul." [Matthew 10:28] Those who are true to God need not fear the power of men nor the enmity of Satan. In Christ their eternal life is secure. Their only fear should be lest they surrender the truth, and thus betray the trust with which God has honored them. {DA 356.1}

 

It is Satan's work to fill men's hearts with doubt. He leads them to look upon God as a stern judge. He tempts them to sin, and then to regard themselves as too vile to approach their heavenly Father or to excite His pity. The Lord understands all this. Jesus assures His disciples of God's sympathy for them in their needs and weaknesses. Not a sigh is breathed, not a pain felt, not a grief pierces the soul, but the throb vibrates to the Father's heart. {DA 356.2}

[Kevin Straub]

9 hours ago, APL said:

Hey Green - Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

 

There it is!  God did it, he sent the fiery serpents, and many people will killed.  GOD is responsible for their death.  That is very plain, right? 

That old saying, "God said it, I believe it, and that is good enough for me" is seriously in need of a reality check. First, God has not put Himself on trial in the Bible in either WORDS, or LOGIC, or RHETORIC. Inspiration tells us so! If we are going to revert to a blunt and brittle view of inspiration as that, we are going to find ourselves in a world of difficulties, as our dispensationalist friends with their notion of verbal inspiration. Here is an example:

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 
 
45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]. 

[Kevin Straub]

7 hours ago, Samie said:

Oh, I see.

I think I am seeing your point. For you, in the final judgment that befalls a man who chose to "go it alone", God is not in anyway ACTIVELY implementing man's extinction in the fire of His presence but is merely honoring man's freedom of choice. He chose to break away from God, ergo, he automatically chose cessation of existence in the fire of His presence.

Did I understand you correctly?  If No, please enlighten me.

That is the basic reality of what I am seeing in the total picture of this thing. The decision to not have God is a decision to cease to exist and this is what every finally impenitent sinner will have to come to realize and accept. Upon acceptance of the reality, they acknowledge the unalterable decision they have made for themselves and in essence, if not in actually expression, are saying, "I accept. Let me go." And God will allow them to expire by withdrawing His sustaining power.

“The same power that upholds nature is working also in man. The same great laws that guide alike the star and the atom control human life. The laws that govern the heart's action, regulating the flow of the current of life to the body, are the laws of the mighty Intelligence that has the jurisdiction of the soul. From Him all life proceeds. Only in harmony with Him can be found its true sphere of action. For all the objects of His creation the condition is the same--a life sustained by receiving the life of God, a life exercised in harmony with the Creator's will. To transgress His law--physical, mental, or moral--is to place one's self out of harmony with the universe, to introduce discord, anarchy, ruin” (Ed 99.2) [see also Eze. 7:3, 4].

“We read of CHAINS OF DARKNESS for the transgressor of God's law. We read of the WORM THAT DIETH NOT, and of the FIRE THAT IS NOT QUENCHED. Thus is REPRESENTED the experience of every one who has permitted himself to be grafted into the stock of Satan, who has cherished sinful attributes. When it is too late, HE WILL SEE that sin is the transgression of God's law. HE WILL REALIZE that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God's wrath abides on him. THIS is a fire unquenchable, and BY IT every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed. Satan strives constantly to lead men into sin, and he who is willing to be led, who refuses to forsake his sins, and despises forgiveness and grace, will suffer the result of his course” (ST, April 14, 1898 par. 13).

 

“Against every evildoer God's law utters CONDEMNATION. He may disregard that voice, he may seek to drown its warning, but in vain. It follows him. It makes itself heard. It destroys his peace. If unheeded, it pursues him to the grave. It bears witness against him at the judgment. A QUENCHLESS FIRE, IT CONSUMES AT LAST SOUL AND BODY” (Ed 144.5).

[Kevin Straub]

In the following document you will find compiled all seven in the "Character of God, Series 'A'" series of tracts, formatted for normal viewing (non-tract) with the titles  

1. “Do As I Say Not As I Do”_Is God Above the Law?

2. The Wrath of God_Is God Violent?

3. How to Read the Bible and Not Become an Atheist

4. Israel and the Sword_Was That God’s Idea?

5. Do Angels of God Kill and Destroy?

6. A Portrait of God_He Looks Just Like Jesus

7. The Fourth Angel Reveals the Glory of God

 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107170239/CGA series standard layout/%231-7_CGA series_single doc.docx

Series 'B' is at this time under construction, with titles (first two are completed):
 

1. Our Unchanging God_Does God Have Two Kinds of Wrath?

2. The Nature of Sin and the Issues at Stake in the Great Controversy

3. The Flood

4. Sodom and Gomorrah

5. The Korah Rebellion and “Fire from the Lord”

6. Did Jesus Use Force?

7. The Destruction of the Wicked

 

[APL]

Most SDAs I encounter think the issue with the Law is over the 7th-day Sabbath.  But it is more than that, Satan has attacked the whole law, the 6th included.  The sixth is, "you shall not kill".  But Satan would have us believe that this really means "you shall not murder," and that killing other humans is good and appropriate at times.  After all, look at the law of Moses.  The 7th is under attack, divorce must be OK because we have laws dealing with it.  And slavery and many others laws.  But Christ came and magnified the law and shows us the true meaning of the law.  Christ shows us that because of the hardness of our hearts were the laws given.  Israel never needed to fight to take the land of Canaan.  But because their minds were terribly blinded by transgression, they could not see the truth.  Even today when Moses is read, there is a veil over the mind, 2 Corinthians 3:15.  But in Christ, the veil is taken away.  We need to hear the testimony of Jesus.  This is the 3rd Angel's Message. 

[Kevin Straub]

9 minutes ago, APL said:

Most SDAs I encounter think the issue with the Law is over the 7th-day Sabbath.  But it is more than that, Satan has attacked the whole law, the 6th included.  The sixth is, "you shall not kill".  But Satan would have us believe that this really means "you shall not murder," and that killing other humans is good and appropriate at times.  After all, look at the law of Moses.  The 7th is under attack, divorce must be OK because we have laws dealing with it.  And slavery and many others laws.  But Christ came and magnified the law and shows us the true meaning of the law.  Christ shows us that because of the hardness of our hearts were the laws given.  Israel never needed to fight to take the land of Canaan.  But because their minds were terribly blinded by transgression, they could not see the truth.  Even today when Moses is read, there is a veil over the mind, 2 Corinthians 3:15.  But in Christ, the veil is taken away.  We need to hear the testimony of Jesus.  This is the 3rd Angel's Message. 

Amen. I don't know who you are, but this then is the message we have heard of Him and which we declare unto the brethren today. It is actually a testing message. The foolish virgins are those who have not studied His character (COL 411.1).

"So in the night of spiritual darkness, God's word goes forth, "Let there be light." To His people He says, "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee." Isaiah 60:1.  
     "'Behold,' says the Scripture, 'the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people; but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and His glory shall be seen upon thee.' Isaiah 60:2. 
     "It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth.
     "This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, 'O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength [a LOUD CRY!]; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him.' Isaiah 40:9,10. 
     "Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. The children of God are to manifest His glory. In their own life and character they are to reveal what the grace of God has done for them" (COL 415). 
    

[Samie]

2 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

9 hours ago, Samie said:

Oh, I see.

I think I am seeing your point. For you, in the final judgment that befalls a man who chose to "go it alone", God is not in anyway ACTIVELY implementing man's extinction in the fire of His presence but is merely honoring man's freedom of choice. He chose to break away from God, ergo, he automatically chose cessation of existence in the fire of His presence.

Did I understand you correctly?  If No, please enlighten me.

That is the basic reality of what I am seeing in the total picture of this thing. The decision to not have God is a decision to cease to exist and this is what every finally impenitent sinner will have to come to realize and accept. Upon acceptance of the reality, they acknowledge the unalterable decision they have made for themselves and in essence, if not in actually expression, are saying, "I accept. Let me go." And God will allow them to expire by withdrawing His sustaining power.

Thank you again, Kevin. And Happy Sabbath, brother.

I now fully understand where you're coming from.  I admire your tenacity in uplifting the truth that God is, indeed, love.  But of course, I also take into consideration that you are not only dwelling on the mercy side of God's governance but also on the justice side with, shall I say, a bit of twist. Relative to this point, I noticed this:

On 08/01/2017 at 4:56 AM, Kevin Straub said:

But there is a problem when God will employ force for punishing free moral agents for making the wrong choice. It makes no sense whatsoever, establishing only a tyranny, not a government based upon free choice and true loyalty and heart appreciation.

It is in this regard where I want you to elucidate a little bit more.

I can believe that in this world, in this life, God could be simply letting over. But when the time comes where every man will be rewarded for what he has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12), God will ACTIVELY make sure that each one gets his due reward.

My biblical basis for this position is the resurrection of the wicked. 

To resurrect people is SOLELY God's act. He cannot simply let over the work of resurrecting the dead from their graves. NOBODY other than the Source of Life, or rather Life Himself, is able to resurrect the dead. Resurrect the wicked and then what? Bring them to His judgment seat and then PASSIVELY annihilate them by the fire of His presence? Why resurrect them in the first place only to be sent back to the grave again?

I think I deserve an explanation from your side.  Thank you in advance, brother.

 

[Kevin Straub]

6 hours ago, Samie said:

Thank you again, Kevin. And Happy Sabbath, brother.

I now fully understand where you're coming from.  I admire your tenacity in uplifting the truth that God is, indeed, love.  But of course, I also take into consideration that you are not only dwelling on the mercy side of God's governance but also on the justice side with, shall I say, a bit of twist. Relative to this point, I noticed this:

It is in this regard where I want you to elucidate a little bit more.

I can believe that in this world, in this life, God could be simply letting over. But when the time comes where every man will be rewarded for what he has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12), God will ACTIVELY make sure that each one gets his due reward.

My biblical basis for this position is the resurrection of the wicked. 

To resurrect people is SOLELY God's act. He cannot simply let over the work of resurrecting the dead from their graves. NOBODY other than the Source of Life, or rather Life Himself, is able to resurrect the dead. Resurrect the wicked and then what? Bring them to His judgment seat and then PASSIVELY annihilate them by the fire of His presence? Why resurrect them in the first place only to be sent back to the grave again?

I think I deserve an explanation from your side.  Thank you in advance, brother.

 

Hi Samie, and thank-you for your civil dialogue; it is truly appreciated. I enjoy talking to nice people.

Your question is a good one and I am happy to share some thoughts on it with you.

The resurrection is certainly not anything akin to passive wrath, hiding of face, giving over, as you say. It is an act of God. The life of Christ is the source of their resurrection, though they do not acknowledge Him. What gives God the right, under the terms of the great controversy (freedom of choice, non-coercion, demonstration of love on principles of righteousness, not physical power) to impose a resurrection upon those to whom Satan has a total claim? It is because this is unfinished business. Yes, they are Satan's and they are brought back for the last act. Would Satan cry "foul" on this? Apparently not. He is happy to have all of his army again, especially at one point of time. They are his last great hope of victory in the great controversy. They are given over entirely to Satan right from the moment of their resurrection. Satan has all power to deceive them and he does. He claims that he resurrected them, he tells them a story of how he has been robbed of his place and that the tyrant is over there in the city with His followers. He backs up his stories with miracle working power, healing the infirmities of the resurrected wicked. 

In this unfinished story, the wicked must be brought to a full awakening of the choice they have made. As the scene progresses, war preparations are made for the attack upon the city. The day comes and they march. I believe it is noteworthy that just as they begin their march, Jesus issues the command to close the gates of the city. Think about that. They are not given a new probation, but then again, they are not looking for one. The gates are opened but they will not go in. That place would be torture to them, as we read in inspiration.

Then comes the coronation of Christ and the great white throne judgment scene and everything is brought out from the books of personal memories and the records of history. This is the time of fire from God out of heaven. The presence of God burns into their souls as fire, like this:

"As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart--all appear as if written in letters of fire" (GC 666.2).

This is the time when this experience begins:

"We read of chains of darkness for the transgressor of God's law. We read of the worm that dieth not, and of the fire that is not quenched. Thus is represented the experience of every one who has permitted himself to be grafted into the stock of Satan, who has cherished sinful attributes. When it is too late, he will see that sin is the transgression of God's law. He will realize that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God's wrath abides on him. This is a fire unquenchable, and by it every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed. Satan strives constantly to lead men into sin, and he who is willing to be led, who refuses to forsake his sins, and despises forgiveness and grace, will suffer the result of his course" (ST, April 14, 1898 par. 13).

The eyes are all opened in the great white throne judgment. All of humanity is brought together at the same time to take part in a common war against God and provide this revelation to the universe and to themselves of the nature of the course of their lives and the inevitable results of it. Further, they will realize fixedness of their choice and that it is by their choice. The next thing that happens is a breakout of war as the damned turn upon Satan and upon those most powerful agents he has used to deceive. I do not see that they actually get their hands on Satan or come against him physically in any way. Satan and his angels are spirit beings. The Bible says they turn their sword against the beauty of his wisdom and thereby defile his brightness (Eze. 28:7). This would be his deceptions, his ideology. Being totally unmasked for what he is, they do not follow him into battle. His kingdom is lost forever, having no subjects to lead. I can see that at this time all of nature is being let loose, as well and the fires that were unleashed in the seventh plague will resume. In all of this upheaval, each one will come to the point of giving up the struggle. The level of wickedness will determine how long before they give themselves over. Some perish quickly. Others "burn" a long time (in the unquenchable fire experience). I have no way to categorically state that none will die in physical fire, because physical fires will be a part of this mix--not as fabricated by God, but as unleashed fires already in reserve in nature. As the wicked give up, it will be witnessed by all the righteous universe that they gave up their struggle and said to the Almighty, "Depart from us" (Job 22:17). At that point, nature's fires may burn them, or they may go down in the battle that is being waged on every side, or they may even commit suicide. One thing I do not believe for a moment is that God simultaneously injects healing power into them for the purpose of sustaining them to receive physical torture. Imposed physical punishment is inconsistent with what God is purposing in this final demonstration and it is inconsistent with His character for it attributes to Him the principles inherent in human systems of justice which are: 1) restitution--which is eye-for-eye and is also impossible in this situation because they cannot pay back for what they have done by physical suffering; 2) vengeance--God does not do hurt-for-hurt retribution; and 3) deterrence--which has nothing to do with securing heart loyalty but is only concerned with non-resistance, with obtaining obedience on threat of punishment and this is fear based. Deterrence precludes love.

The events that take place because of the second resurrection are absolutely necessary to the finishing of the great controversy and ensuring that sin never again rises. The onlooking universe will see that the choice to perish was not imposed upon any soul by God but was totally their own choice and that God did everything He could to save them. The fixedness of their choice had to be demonstrated so that their death would be seen to be the result of sin and not of God killing them for being sinners.

[Kevin H]

On ‎1‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 1:28 AM, Green Cochoa said:

Careful, now.  We may be getting too pantheistic.

Note that "God's agent" does not equal "God." And if it does, it indicates His active involvement.

We cannot reduce God to just so much coal and oil--but when that stuff all gets lit, we will certainly have a lake of fire.

Nope, not pantheistic at all...

[Kevin Straub]

1 hour ago, jackson said:

Kevin, I think you mixing up punishment with forced love. Of course God does not want conscripts. He wants willing volunteers. He forces no one to love Him , nor did He create Adam and Eve with a built-in love for  Him; for He wants all to choose whom they will serve -either  themselves or their Creator. But for the peace and tranquility of all Creation there must be obedience to His laws. He warned Adam and Eve of the severe punishment to be enacted if they ate of a certain tree. Was this a coercive requirement by God  to force Adam to love Him? Of course not. Adam and Eve were on probation to see where their loyalty lay. To warn Adam, in advance, of the penalty for disobedience is a loving act and has nothing to do with trying to make Adam love Him through fear.

The Bible says "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". We are  to be wise enough to know that the Lord has requirements that He commands to be met, and that He has set down punishments for disobedience. Wisdom born of faith understands that God means what He says and says what He means. This fear of the punishment for disobedience is wisdom and should not color our love for God.

Heb 11:7       By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 

Ex34:6          And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,   34:7   Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

 As inspiration noted, , "God's hatred of sin is intense and overwhelming"({RH, March 29, 1892 par. 4} 

I am certainly not mixing up punishment with forced love. If Noah was moved by fear of what God would do to Him if He didn't obey, then his faith was not mature. This is obedience rendered because of being afraid of God. But I would hope that Noah's fear would rather have been the kind Adventists always admit is the healthy one: respect for the Creator and trust in Him as the Source and Sustainer of Life. Nevertheless, we do not go by what any man in history may or may not have believed about God. With the revelation of Jesus Christ, we certainly do have a clear picture of how God acts in the course of the great controversy. The cross reveals His wrath, His "judicial punishment" (the major voice of Scripture), which is the passive modality of Divine Recession, or hiding of face. Notice how this is spelled out in a key statement in the SoP that reflects the same minor voice that shows up also in the keys to wrath in Scripture itself:

“As man's substitute and surety, the iniquity of men was laid upon Christ; He was counted a transgressor that He might redeem them from the curse of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam of every age was pressing upon His heart; and the wrath of God and the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. Every pang endured by the Son of God upon the cross, the blood drops that flowed from His head, His hands and feet, the convulsions of agony which racked His frame, and the unutterable anguish that filled His soul at the hiding of His Father's face from Him, speak to man, saying, It is for love of thee that the Son of God consents to have these heinous crimes laid upon Him…. He, the sin-bearer, endures judicial punishment for iniquity and becomes sin itself for man” (SR 225.1).

 

When God's character-glory was revealed to Moses, the part about not clearing the guilty means just that. But why must we read that to mean God will impose physical punishment by His own hand? This is reading into the text what is not there. According to the minor voice key to wrath, given by the principle of first mention, look at Deut. 31:16-18 and find there that it is the hiding of His face, which is giving them over to that which they have chosen when they reject God. His wrath is to withdraw, Divine Recession. THIS is what is meant by not clearing the guilty. It is like this: "Ephraim is joined to his idols, leave him alone" (Hos. 4:17), and this: "woe also to them when I depart from them!" (Hos. 9:12).

 

Of course God's hatred of sin is intense and overwhelming. Does this prove that God has dual modalities of wrath? It surely does not! It is just a statement. Sin is the separation of the soul from God and it runs contrary to life. God is the God of the living and not of the dead. He is all about life. He pleads with each one:

 

Eze. 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 

 

Notice that it does not say "Turn from your wickedness or I will kill you."

Take special care to process the thought that John brings, when he tells us how only we may come to a perfect love relationship with God:

 

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 
The NIV says "because fear has to do with punishment."
 

[Kevin H]

21 hours ago, Samie said:

And can you please tell us your answer to question #1 - "Who is the lake of fire in Rev 20?" 

Thank you.

No time to go into it now but if I can borrow a title of a sermon preached in the good news tour (I believe 2006 but not sure) "I'm going to hell and looking forward to it!" "I will spend eternity in the lake of fire!

[Samie]

Hi Kevin S;

Thank you for the time and effort you spent in addressing the resurrection-of-the-wicked issue I raised. I am grateful for that, brother.

However, in my opinion, your explanation seemed to have fallen short of disproving my contention that "when the time comes where every man will be rewarded for what he has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12), God will ACTIVELY make sure that each one gets his due reward."  Truth of the matter is, I was wondering whether you were trying to disprove my contention or agreeing with it because it appears to me that your explanation strengthened my position that indeed God will ACTIVELY make sure the wicked gets his due reward:

1. You acknowledged that indeed the resurrection is God's act: "It is an act of God."

2.  You acknowledged that God, under the terms of the great controversy, despite losing His right over those Satan has total claim, yet He IMPOSED a resurrection upon them for reason of UNFINISHED BUSINESS.

3.  You acknowledged that the UNFINISHED BUSINESS is God's in that "the wicked must be brought to a full awakening of the choice they have made."

4.  And to bring the wicked to a full awakening of the choice they made, God gathered them to witness the coronation of Christ and "As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed.  They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart--all appear as if written in letters of fire".

5. Having brought the wicked to a full awakening of the choice they made, "the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them." {GC 668.2}

I guess all of the above are ACTIVE acts of God in making sure that all the wicked receive their due reward.

Now, if God will ACTIVELY make sure that all the wicked will receive their due reward, doesn't that run counter to your proposition?

[Samie]

On 13/01/2017 at 5:46 PM, Samie said:

And can you please tell us your answer to question #1 - "Who is the lake of fire in Rev 20?" 

Thank you.

5 hours ago, Kevin H said:

No time to go into it now but if I can borrow a title of a sermon preached in the good news tour (I believe 2006 but not sure) "I'm going to hell and looking forward to it!" "I will spend eternity in the lake of fire!

 

Gleaned from your previous posts relative to this question, I guess your answer is "God is the lake of fire".  Only a short statement of 6 words. Shorter than your post I quoted above.

 

 

[Kevin Straub]

8 hours ago, Kevin H said:

No time to go into it now but if I can borrow a title of a sermon preached in the good news tour (I believe 2006 but not sure) "I'm going to hell and looking forward to it!" "I will spend eternity in the lake of fire!

I believe that many of these folks are on the right track, but we have a different angle on the lake of fire. They say they wish to spend eternity there because they believe it is the presence of God, the "everlasting burnings" of Isaiah 33:14. We hold that the everlasting burnings is the presence of God and this is one and the same as the unquenchable fire. God, the consuming fire, is the unquenchable fire. The lake of fire is the great final conflagration when God takes everything out of existence by the cessation of His word, of His power that sustains all of nature. Notice that the beast, the false prophet, death and hell are all cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20; 20:14). These are abstract entities. It is like saying "the Clinton Foundation" was thrown into the lake of fire. With everything being taken out of existence, all evil institutions and their results are to be gone forever. Yes, bodies will also be in the lake. But they will have already expired. God isn't throwing anyone alive into a vat of molten sulphur.

[Kevin Straub]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

Now, if God will ACTIVELY make sure that all the wicked will receive their due reward, doesn't that run counter to your proposition?

Not at all. God's government, being based upon freedom of choice, still has to contain that element  of final reward which is God’s express promise that grace and mercy "by no means will clear the guilty." Those who want to keep their own way must do so with the full understanding that it is an impossibility—not because God will kill them but because God is the source of life.

It would not be fair for God to leave everything hanging with all the unnumbered host having gone down to the grave with wicked self in the ascendancy and no resolution, no demonstration that "if" they had had more light they might have chosen righteousness. This is all vitally necessary for everyone and it is only fair to the wicked themselves to reveal their condition to their own selves. The sleep death doesn't finalize anything, it is only an interruption in the process of consummating their decision.

The "proposition" is that God does not have two modalities of wrath, "active" and "passive" and that He does not exercise physical force to punish by the infliction of pain and terror, appealing to principles of restitution, vengeance and deterrence. 

The second resurrection is not wrath, by the Bible definition, which is hiding of face. This is giving them opportunity to live out their chosen reality to its conclusion, which is to kill God. But God shuts the door to that because He has the right to be God and He has the right to protect His own. The sight of Christ rising up for the coronation ceremony is such a grand display of glory and sheer awesomeness that it arrests them in their tracks (note that the light that floods out does not destroy them physically as it is thought to have done at the second coming--this concept of "destroyed by the brightness of His coming" is something else and it is actually to be played out also in the final judgment scene as they are about to enter into the unquenchable fire experience). God is not rising up to exert power of physical force to end the controversy. He does it by revelation. They stop and they watch and their will to kill God comes to an end, as they turn on each other. This is where the power of God is displayed in full force, showing that righteousness wins without firing a shot; that the wicked destroy themselves.

[Gail]

I thought I had a plain, Thus saith the Lord, to fit the discussion:

Psalm 17:13, KJV- "Arise, O Lord, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword."

It sounds from this that the wicked is God's sword. Unfortunately, though, most translations that I checked render it differently (even the KJ21)

Keep up the good work in keeping things civil!

[Kevin Straub]

3 hours ago, Gail said:

I thought I had a plain, Thus saith the Lord, to fit the discussion:

Psalm 17:13, KJV- "Arise, O Lord, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword."

It sounds from this that the wicked is God's sword. Unfortunately, though, most translations that I checked render it differently (even the KJ21)

Keep up the good work in keeping things civil!

It is true that the modern translations take it differently. In the KJV "which is" are added words and in the bulk of the others "by thy" is added. It is the slant of the translator apparently. However, the concept that the wicked are God's weapon is Biblical. For example:

Eze. 30:24 And I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and put my sword in his hand: but I will break Pharaoh's arms, and he shall groan before him with the groanings of a deadly wounded [man]. 
 30:25 But I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I shall put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land of Egypt. 

Isa. 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. 

The Biblically defined principle of Divine wrath clearly manifests at time by God "employing" the enemy of both Himself and His people to "punish" another wicked nation or even His own people. In this particular parlance, the destroying element becomes "God's" sword. Satan is the wrath of God upon this world, in that they have chosen to reject God.

 

[Kevin Straub]

42 minutes ago, jackson said:

Kevin, there is no argument about whether God uses DR in His dealings with men. The argument is rather does He also use direct intervention in the punishment of obstinate disobedience. For some reason unknown to me, you insist that God works only on the principle of DR and that His direct active punishment would be a breaking of this  principle that you have  tied to the Great Controversy.

I maintain that this principle you speak of is a personal construct of yours and is not evidenced in scripture. The swallowing up of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram], the striking dead of Uzzah, the leprosy given to Miriam, the temporary blindness of Paul, the ten plagues in Egypt, the Flood, the deaths of Ananias and his wife Sapphira, the leprosy given to Gehazi, and the dumbness given to Zacharias  are  examples of God's direct active exercising of punishment when He deems it appropriate.

We are to take the Bible as it reads , with clear verses expounding on verses not so clear. This is not circular reasoning  but rather the sound hermeneutic of having scripture explain scripture.

As for the question of Godly fear, I think this can be best explained by the following:

The Lord would have his people trust in him and abide in his love, but that does not mean that we shall have no fear or misgivings. Some seem to think that if a man has a wholesome fear of the judgments of God, it is a proof that he is destitute of faith; but this is not so. A proper fear of God, in believing his threatenings, works the peaceable fruits of righteousness, by causing the trembling soul to flee to Jesus. Many ought to have this spirit today, and turn to the Lord with humble contrition, for the Lord has not given so many terrible threatenings, pronounced so severe judgments in his word, simply to have them recorded, but he means what he says. One says, "Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law." Paul says, "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men."(R&H 10/21/98)

God's "threatenings" are again, language. God will do what He says He will do. He will give the wicked over to their choice and the results of that. I see that you have not read most of what I have provided already on this discussion and would only be repeating myself. Please download the following tract text from Series B in Character of God and you will see the challenge issued for the standard view to provide an hermeneutic principle for dual modalities of wrath, besides just giving more examples of the language. That doesn't cut it.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107170239/CGB series_standard layout/%231CGB _Our Unchanging God_Does God Have Two Kinds of Wrath_std layout.docx

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

2 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107170239/CGB series_standard layout/%231CGB _Our Unchanging God_Does God Have Two Kinds of Wrath_std layout.docx

I read the above paper, and thought it very interesting.   In it, you stated:  " God would have us fear SIN and be deterred from experiencing ITS results, but not to be fearful of HIM..."   

Is that your basic premise from which your assertion stems that God is only passively involved with the consequences of sin?

 

[Kevin Straub]

26 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

I read the above paper, and thought it very interesting.   In it, you stated:  " God would have us fear SIN and be deterred from experiencing ITS results, but not to be fearful of HIM..."   

Is that your basic premise from which your assertion stems that God is only passively involved with the consequences of sin?

 

No. I think this particular study shows the problem with the way we read the language inconsistently in that we have no basis for abandoning DR in some cases but not in others. The only hermeneutic principle offered is that some particular narratives lack specific markers in the various phrases indicating DR or they lack an explicit aetiology. This alone is enough for us to determine that we are dealing with idiomatic language when it comes to Divine wrath. But humans don't like that. They want vengeance and punishment and they read emotion into the wrath of God when it is not based in emotion at all.

The great controversy theme and the testimony of Christ are even more powerful witnesses to the veracity of a single, unvarying modality of wrath. I just finished tract 2 in the CGB series which will provide more information to help you understand where we are coming from (maybe you would like to read the CGA series, too--these should actually come first.)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107170239/CGB series_standard layout/%232CGB _The Nature of Sin and the Issues at Stake in the Great Controversy_std layout.docx

[Kevin H]

It's late and I have to go into work a few hours early tomorrow so let me cut and paste from another topic but where I describe hell fire, I'll do some editing of it and hope you find it useful:

The traditional understanding of the Judgement: We stand before God with our knees knocking. Our record is reviewed and God either tells us that we are allowed into heaven where we run with joy and relief wiping the sweat off our brow and hoping to get into heaven before God changes his mind. Otherwise we are judged and God says we have to go to hell were we are dragged off screaming and begging for mercy and suffer the physical pain of the fire forever.

Now we (and Mrs. White has helped us to see this) that hell fire is the glory and beauty and love of God. Moses was unable to see God's face because it would have consumed him. He was able to only see the back of God. And from just seeing the back of God he shone so bright that he had to wear a veil. When Jesus cleaned out the temple we find that his divinity flashed through humanity and people ran in 2 directions. The money changers were running away from it, and children and the poor were running TO it. How often to you see children running with joy to an angry man with a whip? Yet there was something about Jesus' anger that made the little children and the poor want to run and be with him. That flash of divinity that made the money changers run away and children and poor and ill run towars him was a peek at hell fire.

Mrs. White pictures that when Jesus comes and we see him in all his glory It will be so awesome that we all ask "Who shall be able to stand?" There is a moment of awful silence, the angels stop their singing. Then Jesus says [sings?[ "My grace is sufficient for you" Notice Jesus does not say "My grace is sufficient for some of you" He does not say "My grace is sufficient for you and you but not you over there, and it's sufficient for you, no not you I'm talking to the person standing behind you, sorry for the confusion and false hope you held until you realized that I was talking to the person behind you" Jesus tells all of us that his grace is sufficient for me! However Mrs. White points out that despite what Jesus just told me, that the people who hear him give 2 responses. The one group says "Of course his grace is sufficient for me! This is my God and he will save us!" But other people who just heard Jesus tell them that his grace is sufficient for them feel that he's lying, and with the influence of existentialism on our culture they have become slaves to their feelings. They feel that his grace is not sufficient for them and as they see their lives in contrast to his purity they believe that God is going to get them for their sins, they run in terror to the hills and caves and say "Fall on us and hide us from the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb."

"Wrath of the lamb" Can you picture yourselves hearing a news bulletin "Lamb escapes from the children’s zoo lock your doors and stay inside? The lost have no more need to be afraid of Jesus than they are of a little lamb. However they are terrified like never before and the brightness of his coming consumes them. We have the truth here at the second coming, but then we fall appart and into tradition and superstition at the third coming instead of carrying out what we saw a taste of at the second coming to be in it's full force at the third coming.

So at the end of time. Isaiah 33 asks who can live in the eternal fire. The answer is that the righteous live forever in that fire. When prophets first saw God in vision they felt like they were being burned alive. But learned that they could not only survive in that fire but thrive in that fire and hated not to be burning in that fire. Deuteronomy 4:24 reads For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

We, all of us have 2 attitudes fighting with in us. One is our sinful nature or a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. To esteem ourselves more highly than others, to serve self, to seek the highest place and often this results in evil surmisings and bitterness of spirit. Fighting dispositon this is a gift that God gave us in Genesis 3:15 which is not only a promise of the messiah, but that there is something in us attracted to God and beauty and repulsed by the ugliness of sin. That our deepest desire is to love the world as Jesus has loved it. Then for us his mission is accomplished. We are fitted for heaven for we have heaven in our hearts.

Everything we do builds on one of these two attudes and weakens the other. Yet even at our worst we are trying to manipulate the world into what we think we need to be able to like it better. And even at our best there is a taint of selfishness and thus truly our best is like filthy rags. Thus everything we do has both elements of respect and contempt in it.

At the end of time we do what Moses was not at that time ready to do, see God's front (granted there will still be the unapproachable light and deep darkness reminding us that there is more to God then what we are seeing so that we don't commit the sin of idolatry and think we are seeing God in total). But we will see him in love and glory. Jesus is our deepest desire. The one altogether lovely, the one sweeter than honey and more desirable than gold. The one beloved of women (a forgotten Biblical name of Jesus). We are all overwhelmed by his beauty and glory. The righteous find it heaven to be in this situation and we respond to the overwheming aspect of seeing our filthy rags in contrast to Jesus' holyness by casting our crowns at his feet singing "Holy, Holy Holy, worthery if the lamb!" and at the second coming our sinful nature, or the disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world will been burned out of us.

To the lost they are in a dilemma. Jesus is their deepest desire. They are attracteed to his beauty. They long to run into his loving arms and give themselves fully over to him. They are welcomed by Jesus who tells them that his grace is sufficient for them. But as they contrast their selfishness to his righteousness they do not sing the song of the redeemed. They are unforgiving people and thus they cannot comprehend forgiveness. They think that sooner or later God is going to get them for their sins. Jesus in John 3:18-21 said that there is only ONE reason why people are lost. And that it because they won't come to the light for fear their deeds will be exposed. For fear that God is going to get them for their sins. (while those who do come to the light find not a condemning God but a welcoming God who changes them).

The lost see loved ones around the throne who they long to be reunited with. But they also remember how they would use things like criticizing, complaining, blaming, nagging, threatening, punishing and rewarding to control to make these people do what they wanted them to do. They see how horrible and selfish their interactions with even their loved ones has been. And they see others who they did not love and who they wanted to hurt. And they are horrified especially as they contrast their behavior with the purity and beauty and self-sacrificing love of Jesus. And they know that the one who sits on the throne knows the deepest recesses of their mind and heart and they want to pull away from the source of life. Hitler does not see the final solution from the results of thousands of years of sin and excuses, but sees how these acts were seen through the pure eyes of God. So everyone will see themselves. The redeemed cast their crowns and sing out of gratitude, while the lost want to pull back and hide from the only source of life. Yet Jesus is still their deepest desire. They are in a dilemma. They want to run to Jesus and accept his grace, but they refuse to yield to this desire. It's God's nature to love and forgive and to draw all unto him, but God's love is a power that brings out the best in us. For those who do not want the best in them to be brought out, who are horrified at the ugliness of their sin and don't trust in God's grace but are slaves to their feeling where they feel that God is going to get them so also want to pull back from the one they so long to run to.  It is a very uncomfortable position. It is even worst than the traditonal Catholic/Baptist hell.

Heaven and hell are not two different places. God does not say to some of us we can go into heaven and send the rest to hell. We are wrong when we say that the fire burning forever does not mean forever. "The Glory of him that is love will consume the wicked" When does the glory and beauty and love of God burn out? Never. It's just that some of us will find it to be heaven to burn forever in the fire of God's love and beauty and glory, while others will find it to be hell and consuming and death. God treats each and every one of us the exact same way. Lucifer is treated the same way as Gabrel. Judah is treated the same as Abraham.  The only difference between heaven and hell is that one is embracing all of reality with joy and enjoying reality and enjoying their friends and loved ones and have allowed the selfishness to have been burned out of them and to cast our crowns at Jesus feet and sing "Worthy is the lamb" and others are following a sick figment of their imagination that God's grace is not sufficient for them, are slaves to their feelings that God is going to get them for their sins. They become prisoners of their minds where they have created their own morbid heaven of complaining and whining about how unfair everything is only to see that God is indeed fair, and to come up with excuses but see that they have no excuse yet they refuse to leave this state of mind. Hell is locked not with a pad lock but a sliding lock and it's locked from the inside. As they see all thier excuses melt but refuse to yeild to their desire to run to him they make a compromise. They go on their knees and admit that God is indeed right, but they refuse to go further. This delema between wanting to run into his loving arms and have him wipe their tears from their eyes and wanting to be with him like nothing else they have ever been attracted to ever before, yet their refusing to yield to this desire and instead stay in their fear of what God would do to them and their morbid heaven of complaining and whining becomes so intense that it quite litterally rips them appart and disintergrates them. God is the great purifer,  he does not need some other flame for a clean up job. He is the great cosuming and cleansing fire.

On the one hand God is completely active in the distruction of the wicked. He is not passively twiddling his thumbs. The event that is so horrible for the lost is seeing God in full beauty and love and glory. If he did not show them this they would not have to suffer hell. On the other hand the lost are completely active in their own distruction since they make a different choice in how to respond than the saved.

[Kevin Straub]

11 hours ago, Kevin H said:

It's late and I have to go into work a few hours early tomorrow so let me cut and paste from another topic but where I describe hell fire, I'll do some editing of it and hope you find it useful:

The traditional understanding of the Judgement: We stand before God with our knees knocking. Our record is reviewed and God either tells us that we are allowed into heaven where we run with joy and relief wiping the sweat off our brow and hoping to get into heaven before God changes his mind. Otherwise we are judged and God says we have to go to hell were we are dragged off screaming and begging for mercy and suffer the physical pain of the fire forever.

Now we (and Mrs. White has helped us to see this) that hell fire is the glory and beauty and love of God. Moses was unable to see God's face because it would have consumed him. He was able to only see the back of God. And from just seeing the back of God he shone so bright that he had to wear a veil. When Jesus cleaned out the temple we find that his divinity flashed through humanity and people ran in 2 directions. The money changers were running away from it, and children and the poor were running TO it. How often to you see children running with joy to an angry man with a whip? Yet there was something about Jesus' anger that made the little children and the poor want to run and be with him. That flash of divinity that made the money changers run away and children and poor and ill run towars him was a peek at hell fire.

Mrs. White pictures that when Jesus comes and we see him in all his glory It will be so awesome that we all ask "Who shall be able to stand?" There is a moment of awful silence, the angels stop their singing. Then Jesus says [sings?[ "My grace is sufficient for you" Notice Jesus does not say "My grace is sufficient for some of you" He does not say "My grace is sufficient for you and you but not you over there, and it's sufficient for you, no not you I'm talking to the person standing behind you, sorry for the confusion and false hope you held until you realized that I was talking to the person behind you" Jesus tells all of us that his grace is sufficient for me! However Mrs. White points out that despite what Jesus just told me, that the people who hear him give 2 responses. The one group says "Of course his grace is sufficient for me! This is my God and he will save us!" But other people who just heard Jesus tell them that his grace is sufficient for them feel that he's lying, and with the influence of existentialism on our culture they have become slaves to their feelings. They feel that his grace is not sufficient for them and as they see their lives in contrast to his purity they believe that God is going to get them for their sins, they run in terror to the hills and caves and say "Fall on us and hide us from the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb."

"Wrath of the lamb" Can you picture yourselves hearing a news bulletin "Lamb escapes from the children’s zoo lock your doors and stay inside? The lost have no more need to be afraid of Jesus than they are of a little lamb. However they are terrified like never before and the brightness of his coming consumes them. We have the truth here at the second coming, but then we fall appart and into tradition and superstition at the third coming instead of carrying out what we saw a taste of at the second coming to be in it's full force at the third coming.

So at the end of time. Isaiah 33 asks who can live in the eternal fire. The answer is that the righteous live forever in that fire. When prophets first saw God in vision they felt like they were being burned alive. But learned that they could not only survive in that fire but thrive in that fire and hated not to be burning in that fire. Deuteronomy 4:24 reads For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

We, all of us have 2 attitudes fighting with in us. One is our sinful nature or a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. To esteem ourselves more highly than others, to serve self, to seek the highest place and often this results in evil surmisings and bitterness of spirit. Fighting dispositon this is a gift that God gave us in Genesis 3:15 which is not only a promise of the messiah, but that there is something in us attracted to God and beauty and repulsed by the ugliness of sin. That our deepest desire is to love the world as Jesus has loved it. Then for us his mission is accomplished. We are fitted for heaven for we have heaven in our hearts.

Everything we do builds on one of these two attudes and weakens the other. Yet even at our worst we are trying to manipulate the world into what we think we need to be able to like it better. And even at our best there is a taint of selfishness and thus truly our best is like filthy rags. Thus everything we do has both elements of respect and contempt in it.

At the end of time we do what Moses was not at that time ready to do, see God's front (granted there will still be the unapproachable light and deep darkness reminding us that there is more to God then what we are seeing so that we don't commit the sin of idolatry and think we are seeing God in total). But we will see him in love and glory. Jesus is our deepest desire. The one altogether lovely, the one sweeter than honey and more desirable than gold. The one beloved of women (a forgotten Biblical name of Jesus). We are all overwhelmed by his beauty and glory. The righteous find it heaven to be in this situation and we respond to the overwheming aspect of seeing our filthy rags in contrast to Jesus' holyness by casting our crowns at his feet singing "Holy, Holy Holy, worthery if the lamb!" and at the second coming our sinful nature, or the disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world will been burned out of us.

To the lost they are in a dilemma. Jesus is their deepest desire. They are attracteed to his beauty. They long to run into his loving arms and give themselves fully over to him. They are welcomed by Jesus who tells them that his grace is sufficient for them. But as they contrast their selfishness to his righteousness they do not sing the song of the redeemed. They are unforgiving people and thus they cannot comprehend forgiveness. They think that sooner or later God is going to get them for their sins. Jesus in John 3:18-21 said that there is only ONE reason why people are lost. And that it because they won't come to the light for fear their deeds will be exposed. For fear that God is going to get them for their sins. (while those who do come to the light find not a condemning God but a welcoming God who changes them).

The lost see loved ones around the throne who they long to be reunited with. But they also remember how they would use things like criticizing, complaining, blaming, nagging, threatening, punishing and rewarding to control to make these people do what they wanted them to do. They see how horrible and selfish their interactions with even their loved ones has been. And they see others who they did not love and who they wanted to hurt. And they are horrified especially as they contrast their behavior with the purity and beauty and self-sacrificing love of Jesus. And they know that the one who sits on the throne knows the deepest recesses of their mind and heart and they want to pull away from the source of life. Hitler does not see the final solution from the results of thousands of years of sin and excuses, but sees how these acts were seen through the pure eyes of God. So everyone will see themselves. The redeemed cast their crowns and sing out of gratitude, while the lost want to pull back and hide from the only source of life. Yet Jesus is still their deepest desire. They are in a dilemma. They want to run to Jesus and accept his grace, but they refuse to yield to this desire. It's God's nature to love and forgive and to draw all unto him, but God's love is a power that brings out the best in us. For those who do not want the best in them to be brought out, who are horrified at the ugliness of their sin and don't trust in God's grace but are slaves to their feeling where they feel that God is going to get them so also want to pull back from the one they so long to run to.  It is a very uncomfortable position. It is even worst than the traditonal Catholic/Baptist hell.

Heaven and hell are not two different places. God does not say to some of us we can go into heaven and send the rest to hell. We are wrong when we say that the fire burning forever does not mean forever. "The Glory of him that is love will consume the wicked" When does the glory and beauty and love of God burn out? Never. It's just that some of us will find it to be heaven to burn forever in the fire of God's love and beauty and glory, while others will find it to be hell and consuming and death. God treats each and every one of us the exact same way. Lucifer is treated the same way as Gabrel. Judah is treated the same as Abraham.  The only difference between heaven and hell is that one is embracing all of reality with joy and enjoying reality and enjoying their friends and loved ones and have allowed the selfishness to have been burned out of them and to cast our crowns at Jesus feet and sing "Worthy is the lamb" and others are following a sick figment of their imagination that God's grace is not sufficient for them, are slaves to their feelings that God is going to get them for their sins. They become prisoners of their minds where they have created their own morbid heaven of complaining and whining about how unfair everything is only to see that God is indeed fair, and to come up with excuses but see that they have no excuse yet they refuse to leave this state of mind. Hell is locked not with a pad lock but a sliding lock and it's locked from the inside. As they see all thier excuses melt but refuse to yeild to their desire to run to him they make a compromise. They go on their knees and admit that God is indeed right, but they refuse to go further. This delema between wanting to run into his loving arms and have him wipe their tears from their eyes and wanting to be with him like nothing else they have ever been attracted to ever before, yet their refusing to yield to this desire and instead stay in their fear of what God would do to them and their morbid heaven of complaining and whining becomes so intense that it quite litterally rips them appart and disintergrates them. God is the great purifer,  he does not need some other flame for a clean up job. He is the great cosuming and cleansing fire.

On the one hand God is completely active in the distruction of the wicked. He is not passively twiddling his thumbs. The event that is so horrible for the lost is seeing God in full beauty and love and glory. If he did not show them this they would not have to suffer hell. On the other hand the lost are completely active in their own distruction since they make a different choice in how to respond than the saved.

Interesting, but I have to call it "fanciful." I do not see the final fire as the wicked wanting to run into His arms, not at all. Their conviction is not of the Holy Spirit, but only a hard confrontation of reality. The sweet voice of pleading and attraction is forever gone. In its place we see only "hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness" (GC 542.2). I see the unquenchable fire as a processing of the burden of guilt and a realization of the implications that their choice is to NOT have Christ and therefore they must die, for it is understood beyond a shadow of a doubt that Life is only in Him. They will acknowledge the justice of God and accept their fate, but in total hatred of God:

"The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them" (GC 671.2).

[Kevin Straub]

11 hours ago, Kevin H said:

To the lost they are in a dilemma. Jesus is their deepest desire. They are attracteed to his beauty. They long to run into his loving arms and give themselves fully over to him. They are welcomed by Jesus who tells them that his grace is sufficient for them. But as they contrast their selfishness to his righteousness they do not sing the song of the redeemed. They are unforgiving people and thus they cannot comprehend forgiveness. They think that sooner or later God is going to get them for their sins. Jesus in John 3:18-21 said that there is only ONE reason why people are lost. And that it because they won't come to the light for fear their deeds will be exposed. For fear that God is going to get them for their sins. (while those who do come to the light find not a condemning God but a welcoming God who changes them).

I tried to edit my previous response but it seems to have timed out or something and could no longer edit. I want to expand my thought a little, as follows:

Interesting, but I can only see this as somewhat "fanciful" and speculative, nor am aware of anything in inspiration to substantiate your premise that there is a struggle taking place to go towards God. I would have to see some solid evidence for it. In taking the "everlasting burnings" description of Isaiah 33 as the presence of God in which the righteous love to dwell we do well. However, there is no warrant to do with the text as you are proposing. The text also states that is a burning to the wicked, with our clue to how that is effected in the words "Ye shall conceive chaff...your breath ["ruach," which is the spirit, psyche], as fire, shall devour you" (v. 11). There is nothing in this to suggest any longing after God.

I do not see the final fire as the wicked wanting to run into His arms, not at all. Their conviction is not of the Holy Spirit, but only a hard confrontation of reality. The sweet voice of pleading and attraction is forever gone. In its place we see only "hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness" (GC 542.2). I see the unquenchable fire as a processing of the burden of guilt and a realization of the implications that their choice is to NOT have Christ and therefore they must die, for it is understood beyond a shadow of a doubt that Life is only in Him. They will acknowledge the justice of God and accept their fate, but in total hatred of God:

"The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them" (GC 671.2).