Dress code in church?

[GayatfootofCross]

Well......

I think The Ladies should indeed wear her best to church! But it would be according to mY fine taste and delicate fashionable sensibilities!

Glorious beaded sweeping gowns with arm length gloves (ya know there was a time when no self respecting woman  stepped outside her homes without her lil white gloves with a delicate pearl button on the wrist)

and a matching TaLL head piece.

Modest for sure but tailored nicely.

I think many pleats would have a great effect when one twirls but only with multiple slips and ruffles and bloomers to show not self with impropriety.

Whalebone and cage crinoline and bustles are optional.

 

And now for You Gents!

Of course when sitting and having herbal tea with the  Ladies at potluck, one must show himself as quite dapper.

Tuxes with tails and top hats are all the rage!

It don't have to be black anymore!

But please if one must wear bright colours -a Zoot Suit will be more becoming to enter into The Sanctuary.

And spats! All men must wear spats!

 

 

[bonnie]

Mockery disguised as "humor"of what appeared to be a sincere question can be a effective means of showing disdain and a lack of respect for others that have concerns that differ from "yours". So unimportant and foolish that a response is used that hasn't anything to do with the thoughts or posts of others but to make them appear shallow and superficial .Does doing so make "some" feel superior in their christianity?

[Outta Here]

If that was directed at my response about the "green dress" and muted tones...my point was simply that the emphasis so many people place on what is "acceptable" or "Sunday best" is merely a human fabrication. Sometimes I go to the extremes to highlight the issues; my apologies if anyone thought I was making a mockery of the question. Earlier in this thread I mentioned that we should be clean, modest and concerned with wearing the armor of Christ. It is my opinion that no particular type of clothing is better than any other. What is beautiful to some is hideous to others; what is well-thought-out to some is thrown-together for others. I'd take it even a step further--what is clean and modest to some people is neither clean nor modest to others. So, ultimately, we really shouldn't spend our time judging what others wear, or how they smell, or if we're offended by them--it's what they do in their hearts that matters to God. If we follow His lead, it's what they do in their hearts that should matter to us. 

[bonnie]

39 minutes ago, Aubrey said:

If that was directed at my response about the "green dress" and muted tones...my point was simply that the emphasis so many people place on what is "acceptable" or "Sunday best" is merely a human fabrication. Sometimes I go to the extremes to highlight the issues; my apologies if anyone thought I was making a mockery of the question. Earlier in this thread I mentioned that we should be clean, modest and concerned with wearing the armor of Christ. It is my opinion that no particular type of clothing is better than any other. What is beautiful to some is hideous to others; what is well-thought-out to some is thrown-together for others. I'd take it even a step further--what is clean and modest to some people is neither clean nor modest to others. So, ultimately, we really shouldn't spend our time judging what others wear, or how they smell, or if we're offended by them--it's what they do in their hearts that matters to God. If we follow His lead, it's what they do in their hearts that should matter to us. 

Didn't have anything to do with you or  any comment about a green dress. I think I missed that comment. It would have been hard to miss the mockery in another post however. If someone expresses an opinion or asks a question it does not necessarily mean  So, ultimately, we really shouldn't spend our time judging what others wear, or how they smell, or if we're offended by them 

 

If all we could have afforded was a pair of worn jeans and a flannel shirt that is what would have been worn. However that would not have been an acceptable choice for my boys as long as they had better. It would not have been " I am just going to church so I will wear my old jeans, No one has a right to judge me".  Someone else's judgement is not what guided the upbringing of our boys

Perhaps you are judging someone when you voice an opinion,not everyone is. The post above mine that you seem to take offense at is clearly mocking. No one has suggested that type of reasoning in this discussion.

How you or someone else sees the issue is what, a opinion or a judgement? That word gets thrown around a lot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GayatfootofCross]

1 hour ago, Aubrey said:

If that was directed at my response about the "green dress" and muted tones...my point was simply that the emphasis so many people place on what is "acceptable" or "Sunday best" is merely a human fabrication. Sometimes I go to the extremes to highlight the issues; my apologies if anyone thought I was making a mockery of the question. Earlier in this thread I mentioned that we should be clean, modest and concerned with wearing the armor of Christ. It is my opinion that no particular type of clothing is better than any other. What is beautiful to some is hideous to others; what is well-thought-out to some is thrown-together for others. I'd take it even a step further--what is clean and modest to some people is neither clean nor modest to others. So, ultimately, we really shouldn't spend our time judging what others wear, or how they smell, or if we're offended by them--it's what they do in their hearts that matters to God. If we follow His lead, it's what they do in their hearts that should matter to us. 

I loved the comment about green dresses!

We do have our preferences !

But seriously when I read your "green" statement my naive gullible innocent thought was going thru my mind's Rolodex  and landed on that thing about men wearing green suits in the 1900's! lol

To show your That Way !

Then Pam said something about the Irish! I didn't even think of that and I have a lil irish in me. (or so im told)

No mockery My Dear I agree!

And if people take offense I am with you.... I apologize too.

I know you enough to know that is not your intent nor mine

 

We truly do not know each other and not all will get me or you.

All said in good fun and satire agreeing We cant be going around dictating what one should wear like we are their parents and they are our little children.

Imagine  me thinking it's My  job to think its even remotely christian to comment on what someones wears to wear at church!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My goodness!

It is not a club!

Or is it?

 

[GayatfootofCross]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

GATFOTC, you must have been very well to do when you were younger to be able to afford a Zoot Suit! But maybe I just spent too much on the "Mod Clothes" back then? In the early 60s Platform Shoes were $75.00 for the snake skin ones I wore. Do you realize how much those shoes would be now?

I love it!

There is an older SDA born and bred couple who have an extensive expensive wardrobe !

He has beautiful Genuine Leather fancy coats and real alligator cowboy boots.

She wears real fur in this day and age.

They love showing it off and telling what animals they are.

Many different animal origin apparels according to the seasons.

My son who is a militant PETA VEGAN  would cry foul if he knew.

but anyhoo

We do tend think our culture is thee christian way of doing things.

The richer the Society/People the nicer cars and homes and apparel.

But no where do I find a Dress Code for church in scriptures. So whatever!

 

..well there is a dress code for Priests wearing ceremonial robes and a  ephod over it made of Gold Purple blue and Scarlet with and of course golden plate of Sparkly Jewels of every hue.

..We are all priests of God now.

Imagine me waltzing into Church wearing that!

After all I have scriptures backing me up!

unlike the OP thoughts  and the consensus  that I can find.

Please correct me if I am wrong. whbae

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Outta Here]

Yes, Bonnie. Yes. I am sorry for judging. Opinions can definitely be judgments. Unfortunately, I think this kind of topic lends itself to judgments/opinions. The subject of Sabbath attire has been brought up on Club Adventist probably at least once every year since it's inception. Probably been around the churches for decades prior to this online forum. I still firmly believe that if, in our own opinion as led by the Holy Spirit, we present ourselves as clean, modest and adorning of the Spirit of God in His full armor--then we would do well to worship in the company of angels on Sabbath morning (and every other day we choose to worship at the foot of the cross).

[GayatfootofCross]

All joking and debate aside there is something much more serious my heart goes to.

What it does to the human hearts toward one another when we focus on things we don't love about each other.

We cannot hold in our hands judgement and love at the same time.

There will always be people who do things differently and who think differently and approach people, places, and things  differently.

Whatsoever is lovely etc also applies to who we find ourselves in company with.

 

God help us All

 

[Gary K]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

We cannot continue to filter ourselves, or other people coming into the Church by the way they dress, or the customs they practice.

"We dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." 2 Cor 10:12. {TMK 174.1}

Instead of going about to establish our own righteousness we must accept the righteousness of Christ. His blood atones for our sins. His obedience is accepted for us. Our actions do not in any way establish our righteousness.

There are two errors frequently hurled against us, which we need to guard against. The first is that of looking to our own works, and/or trusting to anything that we can do, to bring ourselves into harmony with God.

While we are trying to become holy by our own works, and making sure our tie is on straight; and  in trying keep to the law, and to traditions or customs, we are surely attempting an impossibility.

Who has said how we dress is trying to become holy?  Not me. Everything I have said points to the fact that what we do is a reflection of who we are inside and how much we love God.  Stop putting words in mouth.  A good tree cannot produce bad fruit and a corrupt tree cannot produce good fruit.  Wash the inside of you and the outside will be clean too.  That's all Bible truth.  It has nothing to do with self-righteousness.  It is Jesus telling us how to look at, and understand, ourselves and our spiritual life.

Your judgment of me is what I have come to expect from the liberal side of the church.   The mocking, the scorn, the deception, all of it really bothers me for we are supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ.  The anger that comes out when I point to Biblical standards and Biblical truth is something that just baffles me.  That is not me making judgments.   It is God making judgments for it is His word not mine. 

I'm not accusing you of all that for you have been pretty civil up to this point.  I'm just saying it is very common on that side of the fence.  l have seen it here repeatedly while those who do it cry love, love, love, oh how much I love people.  Only problem is there is no room in their hearts for someone who sees things from a diametrically opposing point of view.  And I see it that way because that is how the Bible presents it.  I point it out because I love my heavenly Father and my fellow man. 

Here's a quote from the Desire of Ages on this subject:

Quote

The servant is not above his master. The Prince of heaven was called Beelzebub, and His disciples will be misrepresented in like
manner. But whatever the danger, Christ’s followers must avow their principles. They should scorn concealment. They cannot remain
uncommitted until assured of safety in confessing the truth. They are set as watchmen, to warn men of their peril. The truth received
from Christ must be imparted to all, freely and openly. Jesus said, ”What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye
hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops." [356]

Jesus Himself never purchased peace by compromise. His heart overflowed with love for the whole human race, but He was never
indulgent to their sins. He was too much their friend to remain silent while they were pursuing a course that would ruin their souls,—
the souls He had purchased with His own blood. He labored that man should be true to himself, true to his higher and eternal interest.
The servants of Christ are called to the same work, and they should beware lest, in seeking to prevent discord, they surrender the
truth. They are to ”follow after the things which make for peace" (Romans 14:19); but real peace can never be secured by compro-
mising principle. And no man can be true to principle without exciting opposition. A Christianity that is spiritual will be opposed by the
children of disobedience. But Jesus bade His disciples, ”Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul." Those
who are true to God need not fear the power of men nor the enmity of Satan. In Christ their eternal life is secure. Their only fear
should be lest they surrender the truth, and thus betray the trust with which God has honored them.

It is Satan’s work to fill men’s hearts with doubt. He leads them to look upon God as a stern judge. He tempts them to sin, and then
to regard themselves as too vile to approach their heavenly Father or to excite His pity. The Lord understands all this. Jesus assures
His disciples of God’s sympathy for them in their needs and weaknesses. Not a sigh is breathed, not a pain felt, not a grief pierces
the soul, but the throb vibrates to the Father’s heart.

Desire of Ages 356,357

 

No one ever had higher standards than Jesus.  No one.  Love and standards do not oppose each other.  Jesus proved that.  Yet His love was rejected because He said what was earthly was not good enough.  He said the religious bigots of His day didn't understand the Bible nor the power of God.   My love for God induces me to say that we must treat Him with far more respect than we treat any human being.  He is our Creator, our Sustainer, our Redeemer, our Sanctifier, our re-Creator, and He is our Lord and Master.  All of that should bring out the highest degree of respect and love that we are capable of giving Him.  To me nothing else is even close to being acceptable.  I don't judge anyone who walks through the door of the church the first time for how they dress, how they act, what they say, the number of f-bombs that come out of their mouth, and all the rest of it.  I do wonder at those who have known of Christ for years and still come to meet Him dressed like they could care less who they are coming to meet.  We are coming to meet the absolute ruler of the universe.  Act like it.

[Gary K]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

You said some things about "your judgment" meaning mine, I presume? Before you use such a word on someone, it might be an idea to slow down and see if that is actually the case. if you look at the post which you are questioning, you will see that I bolded one of the sentences that i quoted from your post. That is what I was commenting on. Period. Your presumptions about what side of the fence I am sitting on are sorely lacking in evidence. You said in that sentence that people are "disrespecting God" if they do not dress a certain way, and my post in reply to that, was to promote deeper thinking on that line of thinking. I am not concerned in those comments about being "pretty civil up to this point," because this thread is not about my civility. I did not judge you. I commented on that sentence that was bandying about the idea of people "possibly" being "disrespectful to God,"  when they "fail" to dress a certain way. The issue you are trying to raise here reminds me of a time that I saw a guy in church with a very wrinkled suit jacket on, and in general, a little untidy looking. I judged him as something I had no right to do. As that man talked from the pulpit later that morning, it came out that he had been at the bedside of his dying wife all night long, and she died in his arms. We should be ashamed of ourselves for judging people as "disrespectful to God" just because they do not dress right. And I am not "a liberal!"  How can i be? I have not set foot in a church for 3 years? You really dont have much ground to stand on here, unless you apply the dress standard to you only, and back away from applying it to others whom you know nothing about. Just sayin...I hope I did not disqualify myself from being in The Civil Poster Camp for voicing my opinion.

Wanderer,

When you start throwing around "trying to become holy by our own works" you are accusing me of promoting self-righteousness when nothing I have said on this thread has to do with me, or anyone else, trying to become holy through how we dress.  That is putting words in my mouth.  It is you judging my motivations.

I cannot become holy by anything I do.  No one can.  It is impossible.  It is God who sanctifies us.  I see this entire thread in  the context of who God is, and what is HIS just due from us.  That has nothing to do with thinking how we dress will make us holy.   

I see you as a pretty good guy, Wanderer.  So don't think that you have offended me to some point that I will now not like you.  Your posts show a pretty honest guy and I like that.  I respect honesty a lot.  It is a rare quality in our society today. I also see quite a bit of humility in you.  Once again, a good thing. 

That you judged the man in the wrinkled suit does not mean I would have.  Just because I argue for high standards does not mean I am judgmental.  Jesus also argued for the highest standards possible. 

I see it as the mind set of the liberal that any time someone mentions a standard of behavior the liberal thinks they are being judgmental.  It simply is not true.  Are there those who use standards to beat people with?  Of course there are.  But that does not mean everyone who talks standards falls into that group by default.  That is judging someone without evidence.  Now, if you had seen me condemn someone for what they wore, then you would have a case.  However, you have never seen me do such a thing.  To point out room for improvement is not being judgmental.  To point out that God is worthy of the very best we have is not being judgmental. 

I have not said to a single person on this thread, you are evil because you disagree with me and you don't like my standards.  If I had I would have been being judgmental.  I have said nothing even close to that. 

[CoAspen]

Quote

I see it as the mind set of the liberal that any time someone mentions a standard of behavior the liberal thinks they are being judgmental. 

Saying someone is 'liberal', what ever that means, is a judging statement!

[Gregory Matthews]

Garry  K:  People here are often telling you how you present yourself to others.  That presentation may not reflect the real you.  But, you should take seriously the comments as to how you present yourself.  If you are satisfied with that presentation, you clearly do not have to change.  That is your choice.

 

[Green Cochoa]

7 hours ago, Gary K said:

We are coming to meet the absolute ruler of the universe.  Act like it.

But keep in mind that not all who come to church dressed poorly do so with understanding.

I recall one of my students many years ago.  She was a large girl, and the other students called her "Pig" (acceptable within the culture, mind you).  She wore an equally large T-shirt to Friday night vespers, with English text all over it.  While I am certain she could not read and understand it, and perhaps 90% of the students there would have had no inkling of what it said, it distracted me.  The text detailed, in bullet point fashion, the things she had done with her boyfriend the night before--and I will provide no further details!  However, as only about 15% of our students were Christian, it is likely she was a Buddhist and had no proper conception of God to begin with, much less an understanding of how her attire affected the worship.

I never said anything to her about it.  I don't think anyone did.  Let God be our Judge, for He is in a better position to exercise fairness.

[Gregory Matthews]

Standards of dress:

1)  Such are often culturally determined, rather than being absolute dicta that came down from God.

2)  I remember living in Korea where people were so offended by  GIs who would go hiking in the mountains on a hot summer day and be shirtless.  Yet, they would bath openly in the mountain streams.

 3)  I think of a SDA conference, located in another country, that would disfellowship any member who was reported as being seen in public wearing blue jeans.

4)  I sometimes wear a shirt to church that in several other countries is considered to be a dress shirt, one that you would wear when you want to dress your best.  Yet, there was a time in the U.S. when I would have been taken to task for wearing such a shirt and in some cases prohibited form being on the  platform while wearing it.

I wonder if God sometimes has to laugh at what we may do in honor of his name?

NOTE:  When I used the word "dicta" in # 1, I was thinking of Gail.  If you know her, you will know why I was thinking of her. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gerr]

On 2/19/2017 at 7:26 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

Sorry, Gerry, that    is not true today in many situations to include some that are high paying.

Recently, I had the opportunity to observe a group of people interviewing for a well paying job in  a high-tech industry.  All were wearing casual clothing.

Also, I am aware of a situation where Microsoft had selected a good number of people for a position.  All who were selected   had been casually dressed at the interview. 

So, are we going to use our way of approaching mere men our standard in approaching God now?

[Gregory Matthews]

Gerry, I was responding to a comment that you made last Saturday at 4:50 in which you compared people dressing up for a job interview to going to church.  My comment was to the effect that today many people dress quite casual for job interviews, so why should we expect less of them for going to church.

What one wears to church is symptomatic of cultural norms.   We need to get used to that if we wish to have a positive impact on our society today. 

When Christ was here on Earth, the people came to him in the clothing that they typically wore during the day,  just as they were.

Do we really need to demand more?

 

[pierrepaul]

There are 3 topics that go round-and-round in SdA circles. Everyone has an opinion, there is no consensus, and the opinions are heavily influenced by culture.

(a) Church dress, and as as a sub-topic, ornamental fashion (i.e. jewellery light, such as ties, tie clips, ornamental buttons, decorative scarves, lapel pins).

(b) Church music styles.

(c) Sabbath observance.

These have been around for my entire life (almost 5 decades). It's the same debates over and over and over again - the same arguments, the same positions - the debates generate much heat, little light.

I suspect that women in ministry will be a fourth such topic in decades to come.

 

[CoAspen]

Well.....that (a,b,c) keeps us from really being concerned about important matters, a personal relationship with God. We can exam what others are doing to measure ourselves. 

A ridiculas amount of time is spent examining others, their journey, their beliefs, their culture, etc etc. An abnormal amount of wastful time. For all the talk about 'time is short, end is coming around the corner' we seem to enjoy wandering around in the desert!!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Not wanting to beat a dead horse, but I find it somewhat disconcerting when I compare the idea of approaching God in less than one's best with how I used to approach the goddess Ashtoreth in nothing less than my absolute finest and special clothing.  One wouldn't even *think* of doing otherwise because it was deemed an honor and a privilege to approach her.  Maybe it's just me, but if I have an *appointed* time set to meet with God, I would feel like it would be a slap in His face to offer less respect to *Him* than I did to Ashtoreth.  

just my 2¢

[JoeMo]

What do you think God appreciates more - a well-dressed hypocrite or a shabbily dressed true believer?

When the "rules" about men wearing coats & ties and women wearing dresses were "created", almost all professional men were required to wear a coat and tie to work; and women were required to wear dresses or skirts.  It was the culture of the day.  I am a high-level professional; and I haven't worn a coat and tie to work in over 10 years! On Friday I even wear jeans and a tee-shirt sometimes.  I almost NEVER see women in a dress at work - they almost always have slacks or a pant-suit.  The only place I see a lot of skirts and dresses are at bars and rock concerts, where the dresses are barely long enough to cover the "subject". 

[pierrepaul]

This is somewhat tangential to the question of dress, but I wonder if it is appropriate to view attending a church service as "approaching God". St. Paul was clear (IMHO) that there is no more temple, that our bodies are the new temple, that the Holy Spirit lives in us and that we receive the Holy Spirit upon baptism. The old temple service where God resided in the Most Holy Place, and the High Priest approached God's presence with fear and trembling, is no longer. God does not reside in our meeting halls; and we don't (again IMHO) "approach God" when we attend a service in a meeting hall any more than when we engage in family worship at home, or private worship.

The Catholic (and Lutheran) confessions which teach trans-substantiation (or "real presence") continue to maintain a "tabernacle" in the church building where the consecrated Host is placed, as the consecrated Host contains the body of Christ. In our tradition, we have no such tabernacle. Our church buildings and meeting halls are not temples.

My own view (consistent with my personal view on many such issues) is that we are not to be stumbling blocks. We are to welcome all people into our meeting halls; I believe Christians ought to dress "well" (as "well" would be understood in the particular cultural context - not just the general culture, but also the culture of the particular congregation). I also believe that Christians ought not to make a display of ostentatious dress, nor make a display of overly casual dress. But visitors and fellow members who do not conform to these norms ought not to be made to feel uncomfortable or excluded.

[pierrepaul]

27 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

 I almost NEVER see women in a dress at work - they almost always have slacks or a pant-suit.  The only place I see a lot of skirts and dresses are at bars and rock concerts, where the dresses are barely long enough to cover the "subject". 

In our metropolitan downtown office, many of the professional young women dress in form-fitting short-skirt suits. It is part of the business and fashion culture in this city. Many of the young women at our church, accustomed to our city's professional culture, dress in a manner that would be professional and modest in a downtown office but which nevertheless would be considered provocative in a traditional conservative church congregation like the one I grew up in.

With respect to dress, life is far easier on men. One can almost never go wrong with a basic dark blue business suit for almost any occasion - church, business meeting, court, dinner, wedding, funeral, etc.

[bonnie]

What do you think God appreciates more - a well-dressed hypocrite or a shabbily dressed true believer?

Are there only two choices?  Can you be a shabbily dressed hypocrite and a well dressed true believer?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Green Cochoa]

God's rules obviously differ from man's.  I would definitely shave and bathe before meeting any important person--but God has specified we ought not do those things on Sabbath.  Most Adventists, including myself, still do.  But I'm reconsidering my position on that. 

[GayatfootofCross]

God has given us our imaginations.

Is there someone here who imagines that God is looking down on earth getting insulted every time someone shows up wearing jeans and a black pocket Tee knowing full well this guy has a clean suit or at least a blazer in his closet ?

"What  is going on here?  He's got a suit and not wearing it! Im offended..I will take away his blessing"

 

Is there  someone here who imagines that God is happy to see you in church ?

" I am so glad he came even though he'd almost just stayed in bed cause of the weight on his shoulders and now I can prompt someone there to show kindness to him"

 

Showing up to meet the King of the Universe dressed best and modest is wonderful  ..but how does Jesus take it when we dont?

It depends on what kind of God do we see?

Doesn't it

..............

GOD is patient, GOD is kind.
GOD does not envy,
is not boastful, is not conceited,
 does not act improperly,
is not selfish,... is not provoked,
GOD does not keep a record of wrongs.
  finds no joy in unrighteousness
but rejoices in the truth.
⁷  GOD bears all things, believes all things,
hopes all things, endures all things.

⁸ Love never ends.