When your spouse is treated badly.

[Sojourner]

So this last Sabbath my wife and my daughters aged 5 & 9 came along to church. My wife does not come often but comes from time to time. I am a full member and she is not. Anyway at one point I looked over and she was looking upset. When I asked what was up I was told that she would tell me later. Eventually I got it out of her that when she and my youngest daughter walked in, a nasty comment was made by an older member that they were both 'wearing jeans' and how unacceptable that was. My wife would not point out the person that had made the comment. Likely because she was worried that I would have torn strips off them over it. Which as angry as I might feel I would not have done more.  

Anyway the upshot is that my wife says she no longer wishes to attend and will not be attending this Adventist church anymore.

I myself am pretty unhappy over the whole affair also and think the best course of action is to take a break and gather my thoughts.

I think that a lot of this type of thing has been bubbling away under the surface and in my enthusiasm for being into the SDA I have not acknowledged it. This same church recently had members make criticism of the praise and worship team over the drumming and some rubbish over brain lobe addiction  to drumming beats. As such they now no longer have a drummer even though the Pastor formally apologised to him. 

I am thinking of either trying another local SDA church, there is one that a number of young people go to. Yet I think that it still is going to be a hard sell to my wife. Or I am considering taking her to a similar Pentecostal church that was her background when I first met her and spending some time to seek God over what to do. Whether I strike out somewhere new or go each sabbath to the current church and just suffer the legalistic people that seem to dominate it. 

I do wish people would get an understanding of what harm and damage words can do when they open their mouths. Still at the same time I would also rather people be honest. If the goal is to have an SDA church that is a cross between a Christadelphian members only ecclesia and an Exclusive Brethren fellowship where clothing and gender rules are strictly enforced then at least people can make their own minds up about if they wish to continue attending or not.. 

[Gregory Matthews]

There is no easy answer to your questions.

Congregations have personalities.  Individual congregations may not be able to meet the spiritual needs of a specific person.

 I would probably look for another congregation to attend, regardless of whether on not my wife went with me.

 

[Green Cochoa]

?

I would address the matter differently.  Rather than run from the problem, face it and address it.  Ask to see the pastor first.  Share with him what happened.  Ask him if you may present the matter to the church board.  The church needs to know and to deal with the situation, and one member should not ruin church attendance for you when other members likely welcome you and would miss you if you leave.  Let the church board investigate and deal with the individual and/or instruct the church membership at large in how to be hospitable and Christlike.  It is the duty of the church to do this.

If the pastor and/or church board is unwilling to address it, write a letter to the ministerial secretary of the conference and inform him of the situation.  Something will happen.

Jesus never once cast someone out for their apparel--not even naked people.  The righteousness of Christ is to be our spiritual apparel, and clearly some in the church do not have it.  This should be a concern of top priority for them, lest they lose their own salvation--like Jesus said to the Jewish leaders of His day: "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."  (Matthew 23:13)

[Gregory Matthews]

There is some value is what Green said. 

I suspect that many women would not want to return to such a congregation.  My real mission would be to do the best for my wife, if I was in that situation.  I would likely consider that the best for her would be  to get  her into another   congregation if possible.  That would be my mission, not to fix the congregation.

If I were able to get my wife into another congregation, I would then consider what Green has suggested, as long as I thought that I could accomplish that without spiritual harm to my wife.

However, in addressing the local congregation, I would attempt to work through the local pastor, with that pastor taking the lead, rather than going over the head of the pastor and directly to the Church Board.  Right or wrong, the local pastor commonly has great influence over the Church Board.  I would want to have the pastor working with me.

In military terms, winning a battle may result in losing the war.  All to often we can get ourselves into situations where we defeat our fundamental mission by doing that.   I would carefully consider whether or not to take such an issue to the ministerial secretary.  It might be the thing to do. And, it might not be?

In any case, Green has added value to the conversation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gary K]

Sojourner,

I am really sorry that this happened to your wife.  My advice is to first take it to God in a lot of prayer.  What I mean by that is keep on praying about it every day.  Do not just give it a one time shot and if you do not see results from one prayer stop praying about it.  Tell God exactly how you feel about the pain your wife feels and the anger you feel.  Be completely real with Him.  Then ask Him to work this out with all parties concerned, including yourself. 

After you have been praying about it for a week or so then start to act on it yourself.  I would not go first to the pastor or the church board.  If you can remember who was doing the greeting ask around for who made the remarks to your wife and then go to them and ask why.  That is the Biblical way to go about things.  Take it up with the individual first.  If that does no good take it to the head elder and have him help.  Then take it to the entire church if working with an elder fails. Follow the way God told us to work through things and God will honor your needs and requests for help.

[CoAspen]

With GM being a former pastor and leader....

Quote

 My real mission would be to do the best for my wife, if I was in that situation.  I would likely consider that the best for her would be  to get  her into another   congregation if possible.  That would be my mission, not to fix the congregation.

....I believe he gives solid advice. I really like his position on 'not fixing'. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gary K:  The Biblical way, as you stated it, applies to the two individuals directly involved, which in this case is S. and his wife.   On the assumption that the wife will not want to confront, S should turn it over to the system.  The system has rules of procedure and S should let someone  who is assumed to be fair and objective take over the situation.  It is not the job of S to confront the individual.

Both Green and I have given advice on this.

NOTE:  Again, as I have said, it may be that the spiritual interests of the wife are best served by letting it go.  If the  individual typically reacts to people in that way, it will happen again and others can respond as appropriate.

 

 

 

 

[debbym]

only by grace do we rise above personally insulting offenses.  

i would suggest this pastor needs to present messages on the harm of being judgmental of visitors to the church, and i would inform the pastor of this event.  then i would deeply apologize to my spouse and possibly arrange for the pastor to apologize on behalf of the well meaning but insulting member. this is not good when members are hurtful to those coming to church.

facetiously my thought is... i would like to see thirty visitors crowd this church Sabbath morning in jeans... give this member a work out then crash his program by letting him see how much God loves them and is so happy they came to visit at His house.

We all need to be stretched, God's love is greater than we know.

[Gregory Matthews]

Beware of well meaning people:

If you will forgive me for what I have told before:  My ex-wife and I were leaving church one Sabbath when a man came up to her and stated that he needed to ask her to forgive him.  She informed him that she was not aware of anything that he had done to offend her.  So, he proceeded to tell her that he had been telling people that he considered her to be rather ugly looking   and he should have kept his thoughts to himself!

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Beware of well meaning people:

If you will forgive me for what I have told before:  My ex-wife and I were leaving church one Sabbath when a man came up to her and stated that he needed to ask her to forgive him.  She informed him that she was not aware of anything that he had done to offend her.  So, he proceeded to tell her that he had been telling people that he considered her to be rather ugly looking   and he should have kept his thoughts to himself!

 

Yeah.  Those who just can't wait to "do the right thing" ...

That guy should've kept his apology to himself, as well.  What a bozo.

[GayatfootofCross]

How awful!

Sojourner.

I am so sorry for this.

It pains me to the quick.

My Church still argues over women wearing pants in the Church building.

We had a 30 ish couple starting to attend and she had magnificent magenta hair and he had a ponytail and earnings on both ears.

Someone said something to them and they never came back.

It is true what Gregory Mathews said ..each congregation has its own personalities.

Where do one go to worship on the Sabbath  when surrounded by Sunday Churches and no other Sabbath keeping church in sight?

Many SDA's believe it is a sin to worship on Sunday.

I know far too many that don't go or been kicked out.

 

[Gary K]

Oh brother,

Let's see who gave good advice.  Did anyone but me point Sojourner to God as the main solution for the situation.  No.  That is a terrible omission.  God is to be the first place we turn to for help in any of the difficulties of life. 

As to the rest of what was put forward, I will use an illustration out of my own life.  Back in the 70's I was a cigarette smoking, pot smoking, heavy drinking, wild man.  Every third or fourth word that came out of my mouth was the f-bomb and it was so much a part of me I did not realize I was doing it.  One day at work a guy I worked with came up to me and told me I was offending his wife.  I was so surprised I didn't know what to say.  I asked how I was doing that, and he said your constant use of the f-bomb is highly offensive to her. 

I was still completely stunned that I had been offending someone I liked by my language.  She came up to us as it was after work and I asked her if I really offended her.  She said, yes.  Your language is very offensive to me.  I apologized to her and said I would do my best to stop using that word around her, and in doing so it came out again.  I was mortified and apologized all over again and said it just came out without me even realizing it.  It made me understand just how much I used the f-bomb.  And it did get me to clean up my language a lot.  Not just around her. 

We all three worked for a denominationally owned business and that guy could have gotten me into serious trouble by reporting me to my supervisor, but he was too big a man to do that.  He came directly to me and explained the problem and I respected him for it.  Had he gone to my supervisor and complained about me offending his wife he and I would have never gotten along after that in the least.  I would have seen him as a conniving, sneaking rat.  Instead of that we became friends over the situation.  He understood I didn't mean offense, and I understood just how lousy my language had become. 

As I read Sojourner's story it is not clear to me that someone was intentionally cruel to his wife.  She might have overheard a conversation between two people that just happened to mention they didn't think wearing jeans to church was appropriate and because she just happened to be there and wearing jeans she assumed it was directed at her.  I simply do not have enough evidence to judge the situation. 

If Sojourner is so angry that he wants his "pound of flesh" by humiliating the person who spoke, then he should go to the board or pastor.  However, if he wants nothing but to understand and to be a positive force for good then he should find the person who spoke and see what was actually going on.  If I was the person who had said the words that hurt his wife that is how I would want him to act.  To not even attempt to hear my side of the story and bring in the authority figures of the local church to come down on someone who may very well be innocent of maliciousness is a sure way to make sure there will be hard feelings afterwards.  I would be deeply offended by such an action.  If he did it to me the chances of him and I ever becoming friends afterwards would be between slim and none.  However, if he came to me first, even if I had been malicious, I would respect him and like him for being a big enough man to deal with it himself rather than beating me over the head and shoulders with authority figures. 

The choice is his.  He knows what he wants.  I'll bet that once he cools down some he will not want to be offensive.  He will seek a solution that helps all involved including the person with which he is now really angry. 

 

[GayatfootofCross]

12 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Beware of well meaning people:

If you will forgive me for what I have told before:  My ex-wife and I were leaving church one Sabbath when a man came up to her and stated that he needed to ask her to forgive him.  She informed him that she was not aware of anything that he had done to offend her.  So, he proceeded to tell her that he had been telling people that he considered her to be rather ugly looking   and he should have kept his thoughts to himself!

 

wow

Just wow!

[GayatfootofCross]

19 minutes ago, Gary K said:

Oh brother,

Let's see who gave good advice.  Did anyone but me point Sojourner to God as the main solution for the situation.  No.  That is a terrible omission.  God is to be the first place we turn to for help in any of the difficulties of life. 

As to the rest of what was put forward, I will use an illustration out of my own life.  Back in the 70's I was a cigarette smoking, pot smoking, heavy drinking, wild man.  Every third or fourth word that came out of my mouth was the f-bomb and it was so much a part of me I did not realize I was doing it.  One day at work a guy I worked with came up to me and told me I was offending his wife.  I was so surprised I didn't know what to say.  I asked how I was doing that, and he said your constant use of the f-bomb is highly offensive to her. 

I was still completely stunned that I had been offending someone I liked by my language.  She came up to us as it was after work and I asked her if I really offended her.  She said, yes.  Your language is very offensive to me.  I apologized to her and said I would do my best to stop using that word around her, and in doing so it came out again.  I was mortified and apologized all over again and said it just came out without me even realizing it.  It made me understand just how much I used the f-bomb.  And it did get me to clean up my language a lot.  Not just around her. 

We all three worked for a denominationally owned business and that guy could have gotten me into serious trouble by reporting me to my supervisor, but he was too big a man to do that.  He came directly to me and explained the problem and I respected him for it.  Had he gone to my supervisor and complained about me offending his wife he and I would have never gotten along after that in the least.  I would have seen him as a conniving, sneaking rat.  Instead of that we became friends over the situation.  He understood I didn't mean offense, and I understood just how lousy my language had become. 

 

Dear Gary K
Hello! I really appreciate your story and your joy of working with Christians that gave you respect and dignity in this.

Makes my heart glad.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gary K said the following below:

It presents you as rather judgmental and as impressed with your own story.   (Seemingly you are the only one giving good advice.)

Quote

Let's see who gave good advice.  Did anyone but me point Sojourner to God as the main solution for the situation.  No.  That is a terrible omission.

[aka]

"....only by grace do we rise above personally insulting offenses. "

I appreciate you sharing this truth, Debby. It's personally a big part of my spiritual experiences.

[Outta Here]

Sojourner, the incident that seemed to have caused her desire to no longer attend the church was likely only "the straw that broke the camel's back". Take it to the Lord in prayer; take your wife and children with you! Ask her questions about her own spiritual journey and listen to her answers. Walk in harmony with her and find out what it is she needs. Be a leader; not only a defender. Be a provider; but also be her help meet. This was not about church--it was about your relationship with your wife. 

10An excellent wife, who can find?
            For her worth is far above jewels.

      11The heart of her husband trusts in her,
            And he will have no lack of gain.

      12She does him good and not evil
            All the days of her life.

      13She looks for wool and flax
            And works with her hands in delight.

      14She is like merchant ships;
            She brings her food from afar.

      15She rises also while it is still night
            And gives food to her household
            And portions to her maidens.

      16She considers a field and buys it;
            From her earnings she plants a vineyard.

      17She girds herself with strength
            And makes her arms strong.

      18She senses that her gain is good;
            Her lamp does not go out at night.

      19She stretches out her hands to the distaff,
            And her hands grasp the spindle.

      20She extends her hand to the poor,
            And she stretches out her hands to the needy.

      21She is not afraid of the snow for her household,
            For all her household are clothed with scarlet.

      22She makes coverings for herself;
            Her clothing is fine linen and purple.

      23Her husband is known in the gates,
            When he sits among the elders of the land.

      24She makes linen garments and sells them,
            And supplies belts to the tradesmen.

      25Strength and dignity are her clothing,
            And she smiles at the future.

      26She opens her mouth in wisdom,
            And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.

      27She looks well to the ways of her household,
            And does not eat the bread of idleness.

      28Her children rise up and bless her;
            Her husband also, and he praises her, saying:

      29“Many daughters have done nobly,
            But you excel them all.”

      30Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain,
            But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised.

      31Give her the product of her hands,
            And let her works praise her in the gates.

[Belle]

I left the Adventist Church because of legalism, unkindness, and constant criticism of its members. The last day I went to my regular church, the old guard were berating another teenager about the song she sang and using a guitar. This was around 20 years ago. I much prefer to worship God in my own way in my own home with my family. My husband had quit going a year before me because when he had cancer and was in the hospital, some Adventist couples came to visit him and told him he got cancer because he ate meat and he was going to hell. That was just the last straw for him. I could write a book on the meanness of Seventh-Day-Adventists. When I decided I couldn't in good conscience bring a visitor to my church, that was the day I said to myself, "What am I doing here?"

What the church needs is love, love, love. Mrs. White says the church will be good when thousands leave in the shaking and thousands from outside come in. That will be a good day. 

[GayatfootofCross]

6 hours ago, Belle said:

I left the Adventist Church because of legalism, unkindness, and constant criticism of its members. The last day I went to my regular church, the old guard were berating another teenager about the song she sang and using a guitar. This was around 20 years ago. I much prefer to worship God in my own way in my own home with my family. My husband had quit going a year before me because when he had cancer and was in the hospital, some Adventist couples came to visit him and told him he got cancer because he ate meat and he was going to hell. That was just the last straw for him. I could write a book on the meanness of Seventh-Day-Adventists. When I decided I couldn't in good conscience bring a visitor to my church, that was the day I said to myself, "What am I doing here?"

What the church needs is love, love, love. Mrs. White says the church will be good when thousands leave in the shaking and thousands from outside come in. That will be a good day. 

Hi Belle! Nice to meet you!

There is a growing movement that you are a part of I see emerging. I myself growing up SDA (more or less) church witnessed my tiny rural conservative church do what you described ad naseum. We were right in the middle of independent ministries  and self supporting lil companies of people here and there. I heard it all and saw it all. People either confronting others are talking about others. What was worn at church. What they ate at church. What was in their grocery carts in the small town stores. I thought that was Christianity! I became just like them.

And boy was  I in trouble thinking that is how god is toward me as well

UGH!.

There was no safe place. He was no safe place. You cant invite others to this and expect them to be happy ..much less Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee.

You mention the shaking. Yes yes! I believe the Church will fall. Fall hard and fall big and something beautiful will come forth. A Remnant who's focus will not be on my failings or others but on Jesus and His Love for us. And His Love on others.

To look upon each person as Jesus Himself no matter who or what they are! The dos and don'ts will not be on anyone's mind or breath .. but only two of the Highest Standards will drive this Remnant. Sealed that God is in absolute head over heels in love with you and everyone else. This people (church) will be a Safe Place for you to bring others into the Fold before Jesus comes to take us Home.

 So happy to meet you here

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I am sorry for the pain that you have experienced at the hands of Adventism.  I wish that I had a magic wand and could wave it and make it right, but I can not. 

I have no idea as to where you live.  In some places,  there is only one SDA congregation to which one can attend.  In other places there may be many.  Congregations have personalities, so to speak.    Whether or not there is a nearby congregation to which you could    receive spiritual nurture, I Do not know.

I can only say:  May God bless and lead you in you spiritual journey.

Yes, there are some congregations to which I would not take some visitors.

 

[B/W Photodude]

8 hours ago, Belle said:

What the church needs is love, love, love. Mrs. White says the church will be good when thousands leave in the shaking and thousands from outside come in. That will be a good day. 

When people wonder why church growth is slow and no one is seems to be joining the church, I just note that they are being carefully protected out in the other churches. I see many people all the time that will tell me that the Sabbath of the Bible is the seventh day and they remain in their first day church.

[Belle]

I don't know what you mean by, "carefully protected."

[Belle]

Thank you all for your response. I live in Kelowna, BC. Canada. We have about 5 churches here. I've been to all of them. There is a very large retirement community in Kelowna. It is a lovely place to retire, so the majority of Adventists here are elderly. Still, I found the legalistic attitude to even be in the pastors, and they were not old. However, I don't wish to say only bad things about the church. I know by reading Adventist magazines that there are many Adventist organizations that help the poor and do a lot of good. There are many wonderful preachers, Ty Gibson comes to mind and his Lighthouse organization. Of course ADRA is wonderful.

I love the thought by Gayatfootofcross, that "...something beautiful will come forth," after the shaking.

[Gregory Matthews]

Belle:

Some of those who study Adventism tell us that there are five (5) different groups of SDAs as to doctrine and life style.  the interesting thing is that those who tell us such do not all agree on the composition of those various groups.

In any case, the boundaries of those groups are not determined by either the age of  their members, or by their theological training.  So, all of those groups have both clergy and members.

Here in Club Adventist we have members who are not SDAs as well as those who represent a variety of positions within Adventism. 

 

 

[B/W Photodude]

2 hours ago, Belle said:

I don't know what you mean by, "carefully protected."

I just mean watched over by God. There are many in churches other than the SDA that love God and Jesus and will come into the SDA church at the time of the shaking when many SDAs leave the church. I run into many people all the time who love God very much and will make their decisions when the Sabbath issue comes to national debate. This can be read about in the Great Controversy.