coming back to the faith SDA, i am troubled

[Ian-spain]

I left the faith at 15 years old but I spent my growing youth with the SDA church as my mother was Adventist and so was her father. I have returned after over 36 years but I never stopped believing but I did not practice many things that the word of God tells us to do. I moved to Spain last year and I started walking closer to Christ and have been going to a small church even though my understanding of Spanish is very low. My Journey began in Jamaica as a boy with adult hood in London and now a move from the big city of the world to a small Spanish town with my wife and 2 children. I have struggles now with my wife who is not a believer but my children are open to the word of God which they see the beauty of simplicity and truth but we still have struggles with now the rejection of books like Harry Potter as good reading material. This is a short story of where I am after 9 months in Spain and maybe 5 months of starting to walk with Christ. I have been thirsty for righteousness and knowledge of what has been happening with SDA since 36 years away. I am saddened but equally not surprised as I learnt and read about division that would happen in the church in the last days and women ordination is an example and having listened to arguments on both sides, read the bible myself on this matter and searched for the truth through God, I believe those that support women ordination have gone against the word of God for popularism and some maybe good intentions. I am now troubled and I need to turn to pray and maybe also with the advice of a SDA pastor that is a believer in the whole truth of the bible. I now want to be baptised and be a member but if a minister now believes in women ordination and has started to turn away from doctrine how can he lead me in all things, should an ordained minister baptise me and I be a member of his church when I believe he no longer holds scared all things of the bible. Should I now worship with my children alone on the Sabbath and find a pastor of pure belief to baptise me. Is not Romans 16 17-18 not true of those within the church that now support and will seek to teach doctrine of woman ordination. It seems that most of Spain support women ordination but did Ellen White or I cannot quite remember where I heard it as a child, "only a remnant of a remnant will be saved". I have much to learn and understand and I am now reading words again from when I was a child and the meanings are clear and I pray God will guide me in wisdom of his truth. I ask for help and advice from a pastor true to the faith, a leader of the flock of God as I am just a prodigal son returning and need help.

[Gail]

Welcome! May you find peace with God and with your fellow man as you continue your journey.

[Gregory Matthews]

Welcome to this forum.  The people who  come here are a diverse bunch.  Probably 1/3 are what you would call a true SDA member.  Another 1/3 are people who, like you, are struggling, with their faith and how it is expressed in SDA congregations today.  The final 1/3 are people who are not SDA members.  Some of them are here because they want to learn more about the SDA denomination.  Others are here because they have an agenda that they want to promote within Adventism.  My point:  We are a diverse group that in many aspects represents people who are on a spiritual journey, at different stages of spiritual growth and do not fully reflect perfection in either doctrine or in their lives.

I am troubled by some of your comments.  If you look to SDA pastors as you seem to be doing, I will suggest that you will never find one who has reached the perfection that you want.

I am troubled by your comments related to the diversity of belief that you see in the SDA denomination today.  All of us are on a spiritual journey.  We have not reached the same level of spiritual growth, as it true for you.  But, should this not be true for the Church.  Should it not be a place were people can come and grow.

Much that is in the Bible is not 100% convincing to all people.  Much that is in the Bible is not foundational for salvation.  Much that is in the Bible may properly be left for God to deal with and we humans are not required to make those decisions.

Let us look, for a moment, at your interest in female ordination.  In actual fact, correctly understood, the Bible really does not deal with ordination of either males for females.  SDA practice on odination has largely come from outside of the Bible.  As to females, what the Bible deals with is the role that women should have in spiritual nuture.  The official SDA denominational position as to the ordination of both women and men, is based upon policy and not upon the Bible.

In the recent 5-year study of  the theology of ordination,  all documents were placed on line for people to read.  Have you read all of them?  The conclusion was that a case could not be made either for or against the ordination of women, that was based upon the  Bible.

The fact that SDA Members do not agree on many aspects of SDA belief and practice does not mean that they are in the Spirit of Romans 16:17 & 18.

 

 

 

 

[Ian-spain]

Gregory, I welcome your comment. I was looking to seek a pastor who naturally speaks English and holds the same view as myself, I am not looking for a perfection of a pastor but wanted to seek some council from a pastor as one would do if a member of a church. To the world much of the bible is not 100% convincing and maybe now also to people within the church. It is clear that that bible has stories of history, the way to be and of people that we can learn and it could be argued that just readings also help towards salvation otherwise you are implying that we can just keep the message that is 100% related to salvation and other parts that help in a lesser manner should be cut out. Are there not more important prophets than others in the bible that also help us towards salvation. The tone seems like dismissal of some parts of the bible which would suggest you may be pro woman ordination. I am not a scolar of the Bible but 1 Tim 3 1-4 deals directly with women ordination. Romans 16 is not aimed at the congregation (flock) but the leaders that are now bringing existing souls and new ones into a false teaching. I am not going to spend my time reading debate papers and information to justify this action. The Bible is the source full of examples of Jesus being equal in might and power to God but yet subjecting himself to God and having a different role to God while being equal. People on both sides will be saved but this is a depart from doctrine that I reject it even as a returning believer. 1 cor 11:3 also deals with Christ being the head of man and man being the head of woman. If much of the bible could be done away with as you implied it would serve to make it easier for new practices to be introduced into the SDA church with little resistance. The 1/3 of SDA that you say come to this forum that you call true believers for me equate as true believer belives in all of the Bible. I consider myself a true believer not someone struggling with faith and I pray for increase of strength without waver.

[Gregory Matthews]

Ian-spain:  All of us welcome you here to this forum.  My assumption is that as you are new to this forum, you just might misunderstand it.  On that basis, I described the variety of people who come and post here.  I do not want you to think that some of what is posted here is Adventist doctrine.

You tell us that you are not struggling with faith.  I suspect that there has been a  misunderstand between you and I.  Perhaps there is a language difference?  I do not know.  But, in my experience, the life of the committed Christian is an onward journey and I might call it a struggle in faith.  In attributing that to you, I was simply acknowledging you as a comitted Christian and I was responding to what I saw in your stated  post as to your spiritual jo9urney. If this is not you:  O.K.

In your post, you stated that you had listened to both sides of the question on women's ordination.  I mentioned a SDA denominational source that you can access on the Internet that will have papers on both sides of that question.  You are free to agree or disagree as you chose.  You area certainly free not to read those papers.  If you were to do so, you would find you are in agreement with some.  But, you clearly have mis-charaterized both them and me in your rejection of them.  And you do call into question your willingness to look at both sides.

You tell us that 1 Timothy 3:1-4 deals directly with the ordination of w omen.  It seems that you have not read that passage in some time.  It does not mention ordination in any sense.  What that passage does is to tell us of the qualities that a bishop must have.   You might say that this passage restricts the role that women can have in spiritual nuture.  I might not agree with that.  But, at least we would agree that the passage does not talk about ordination.  You will not find the word "ordination" in any classic version of the Bible, written in English.

You tells us that Romans 16 is directed at leadership who are bringing people into a false teaching.  How long has it been since you read Romans 16.  Paull, the author of Romans  in 16:1 commends Phoebe, a female and leader in the church in Cenchrea.  Surely you would not say that she was leading people into error.

You will also fond in the 16th chapter that Paul comments Priscilla, Mary, Junia; all women, who Paul ranks among the apostles--verse 7.  In verse 15, Paul also commends Julia. 

Paul does not get into talking about people who led people astray until verse 17.

In Romans 16, the majority of the verses--23 verses out of 27 verses--are talking about church leaders who are doing good work.  Only four (4) verses talk about those who are leading people astray.  In all cases, where Paul mentions a woman in  chapter 16, it is in a positive context.

 

By the way, I do not advocate dismissing any part of the Bible.  Please do not suggest that I do such.

 

 

  

 

[Ian-spain]

hi Greg, you described 1/3 of people including myself as people struggling with faith or somewhat undecided therefore implying the other 3rds are not within this same camp. I know and understand that all have sinned and it is a constant struggle but your initial 1/3 description implied something different and maybe that is now not what you meant but those were the words written and with words implies meaning. We do not have a basic communication problem concerning language. I live in Spain now but I am British and we are communicating well to understand the written text. I do not profess to be a scolar of the bible and I don't read the bible looking for information to directly support for example that we should not smoke drugs. By reason if we are told that a man is the head of the household in marriage we should not need to look for words to say the women should not be the head in a marriage. If conferences are taking years to discuss, debate and search for arguments on both sides of one point of doctrine within the bible then it shows problems are developing. Will there also be more years spent doing the same thing for other points of doctrine and then the flock either believe all that is put to them via learned men of the bible as acceptable change or we hold unto faith in our existing believe which was good enough for the past xxx years. 1 cor 11:3 also talks about headship. People have spent a lot of time looking at these things and more already to the point of I suspect confusion because of lack of belief and submission to Gods word. Should the flock now be tied up in reading all materials and scholarly words of this multi-year debate. Through Christ I pray to God for wisdom from when I was a child and I do not see wisdom in the changes taking place. So now womens ordination and mens ordination (gender neutrality) is acceptable. From all these great white papers on the big issue debated for years where was the God inspired wisdom to understand that such a change would cause great division. If such wisdom existed was the warning coming from the side of the camp that was debating for no women ordination.

You may tell me to go read materials to know what was said but the vote has taken place and lines are drawing and it now makes no sense and waste of my time to become a historian to detail of what happened. So are the pro ordination of women group now saying after the fact and the division that has arisen and will get worse that the decision was still good and would still be taken again if there was a second chance and that deep division in the church is acceptable in the name of progressiveness. Gods word is good and everlasting when man interfers  it usually ends up with unintended consequences.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Ian, welcome to the forum.

It appears that your primary issue is with members who don't agree with your position on Women's Ordination, and you prefer not to associate with those people who don't think as you do.  

Do you really think the manmade construct of "ordination" is worth fighting over?

"The world is starving for lack of bread.  We [the church] have the bread, and we are arguing about who will serve it..."

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Well, you have read into what I posted well beyond what I intended to say.

You tell us that the vote was taken.  Do you even understand what that vote was.  Do you understand that the best of historical evidence supports that no vote has ever been taken to either support or prohibit the ordination of women.  Yes, some argue that a vote  was once taken to ordain women and others argue that a vote was taken to prohibit the ordination of women.  But, the best documented position is that no vote has been taken on either side.

You have not responded to my statement that no classic English version of the Bible contains the word "ordain."  The Bible clearly does talk about "laying of  hands."  Is this what you call ordination.  Well,  We do this for both male and female Elders.  And we say that we have ordained both male and female Elders.  As President Ted Wilson has stated, this has been voted and remains unchanged.

We lay hands upon males when we ordain them as clergy and we lay hands upon women when we commission them as clergy.  We set both aside for ministry.  

I do not agree with every aspect of your belief.  That is fine.  I have no desire to change you beliefs.

You came here asking for help as a person who had been away from Adventism for some time.  I simply gave you some things to think about.  what you do with them does not concern me.

I have clearly misunderstood you and what you were asking for in your OP.

 

 

 

 

[B/W Photodude]

45 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

You have not responded to my statement that no classic English version of the Bible contains the word "ordain." 

KJV uses the words ordain, ordaineth, or ordained approximately 41 times.

[Gregory Matthews]

Well, I need to correct my statements in the future.  Thank you for correcting me.  I appreciate that.

NOTE:  I posted a longer response, but it got  lost. 

 

[Ian-spain]

Christians should read the bible and study but how much material should all the millions be expected to read to be up to date with all the arguments expressed in this multi-year debate. How many people are not internet connected should we say that multiple books should now be printed so there is no excuses for not understanding this PHD researched debate. I believe the vote has been made so the exercise is either to read all things and then either change my mind or continue in my existing belief. It does not matter what the subject matter is, it is the principle of change from doctrine. Can you imagine my shock after returning to read about the division in the church. It may be old news that is exhausted to many people but its fresh news to me. I was never expecting people on this forum to agree with me as this is division of fundamental doctrine. I will tell my story but it does seem prophesy is being fulfilled with what is taking place. I wish you all the love of Christ and may he guide you in his truth.

[JoeMo]

Compliance with denominational doctrine is not what saves a person.  Having a relationship with Jesus Christ and leaning on His grace and sacrifice are what saves us.  I have no problem with ordaining or commissioning women.  If I did have a problem, I would simply attend another church which has a male pastor.  Problem solved!

I went to a church that had a female pastor for seven years.  I really liked her.  I currently go to a church with no pastor at all.  That works as well!

[Gregory Matthews]

Contrary to what I had posted, B/W Photo due pointed out that the word "ordain" Exists in the KJV Bible.  I was wrong in what I had said.  I do not claim ot be perfect and apreciate it when people correctly point out that I was wrong.  As a matter of fact, I had a gut level feeling that I needed to document before I made the statement, but, I decided to make it without checking it out.   And, another of our members did check it out. 

But, I do believe that it would be of value, in this discussion to take a look at how the word "ordain" is used in the KJDDV.  I previously wrote such a response, but somehow that response got lost and ws not posted, so I am responding again. 

The majority of times that the word "ordain" is used in the KJV have little to nothing to do with clerical roles.  One example of this is found in 1 Chron. 17:9, :  " . . . I will ordain a place for my people. . ."

2 Chron. 11:15 does use the word "ordain" in the context of establishing priests.  But, these are priests that serve demons, idols and other such and were established by a human King.

Titus 1:5:  ". . . thou shouldest ordain elders in . . ." does, in the KJV, use the word "ordain" as applied to local congregational leaders.

Regardless of the above, the Bible, does not describe an odaination ceremony that elevates people to a clergy position.  The SDA practice is derived in some ways from extra-Biblical sources.

What the Bible does prescribe is a setting a person apart by prayer and the laying on of hands.  This is all that is Biblical.

We set apart both male and female local Elders by prayer and the laying on of hands.  We call that ordination for both males and females.

We set apart both males and females for clergy status by prayer and the laying on of hands.

For such males we call that Ordination.

For such females, we call that Commissioning.  I have participated in such services in which it was done for a female exactly as I have stated it.

We set apart male, and sometimes females, by prayer and the laying on of hands to the position of a local Deacon and w hen we do this, we call it ordination.

NOTE:  Some SDA congregations have eliminated the position of Deaconness and only have Deacons.  In such cases it will be common for there to be two co-head deacons, on a male and one a female.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GayatfootofCross]

14 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

 I would definitely be interested to discuss your story and experience about leaving, and coming back to church

YES!

Hello Ian-spain!

Tell us your Testimony of a Gracious Servant wooing God.

What happened?

We're all dying to know.

[Gregory Matthews]

Ian-Spain:  You are welcome to tell your story.  You set the boundaries of the conversation by establishing how your respond and what you post.

As to my error, the thought behind my incorrect statement  was the following which Dr. George Knight has  done much better in his statement:

What is not biblical is ordination as we know it. In fact, our English word “ordination” does not derive from “any Greek word used in the New Testament, but from the Latin ordinaire.”15 As a result, modern translations tend to use such words as “appoint” or “consecrate” where the KJV uses “ordain.”16 The word “ordination” as Adventists use it is not a biblical teaching  one that finds its roots in the early and early medieval church.17 From that perspective, the distinction between ordaining and commissioning is a word game of no biblical substance.

[Ian-spain]

I am not here to debate this topic but stated my views as it has caused concern and I think problems will occur as a result. I do understand the matter and the wealth of evidence for the against is on balance, with reason and faith stronger than the for arguments and obscurity of examples being used to justify change. Reading realms of material should not be a substitute for having faith and heavenly wisdom to see clearly as to how God has structured the relationships in the church. It was the reason for my concern so a topic I will talk on but I am not hear to get into long discussions about this topic and to replicate again arguments that must have been had on this matter. Obviously a potential can now exists for an all women general conference board in theory given that gender equality has won the day on earth. I was also surprised to read that the vote was done in secret. Why the secretcy, would some have cast different votes if they knew their name and position would be printed and made known. I am new, I left as a boy but is this the normal operation or was this secret vote something special. In England members of parliament vote and it is openly recorded for the public but we have secrecy in the SDA. If everyone is operating with a good heart without fear, why is the secret? Is not the catholic church operate with secret votes. I will tell my story but I have not finished as yet.

 

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

16 hours ago, Ian-spain said:

Reading realms of material should not be a substitute for having faith and heavenly wisdom to see clearly as to how God has structured the relationships in the church.

I don't see the urgency of having a "correct" relationship structure (whatever that is) within the church. What happens in relationships in a man-made denomination are irrelevant to salvation.  What IS relevant is "how is your relationship with your God?"  You can be the world's most perfect Adventist (or Catholic, or Baptist, etc.); but without a correct relationship with God, you salvation is not assured.  A famous singer and humanitarian once said "when the Holy Spirit leaves the church, all you have left is religion.".  Read 1 Cor. 13.  Substitute the word "God" every place it says "love".  (Because God is love; ant whoever abides in love abides in God).  You will hopefully see what I mean.

[Raphael]

Women ordination is already allowed but not on a regular-mass scale.. If the woman leader is found to be extraordinarily accompanied with the presence of God as with EGW and those women leaders mentioned in the Bible then they are given suitable positions and functions.. Further, as the Bible clearly shows of no regular-mass women ordination, therefore that is reflected as well in the current stand on SDA women ordination.

The journey to heaven is well illustrated with descriptions of loneliness, unpopularity, solitude, and pain.. Never give up.. Be like that undying seedling or egg that sprouts magically into life after terrible drought, at the very least..