Where was the church ...

[Gary K]

On 8/30/2017 at 10:09 AM, The Wanderer said:

what some call "games" here is really not. It is not a game to Gregory when he is trying to work with multiple divides and factions, all with at variance opinions, and I dont think its fair to just pink-slip Gregory like this. I dont like a few things he has done in the past, and I made it well-known here on the forum; but what wasn't well-known, is how I asked God for help, and I was able to discuss and resolve the problems at hand, without either one of us "giving in" and surrendering our will/beliefs to the other. And I found Gregory to always be open to this kind of conversation, when it is directed at resolution of the problem. He still doesnt do what I say, but now he is my friend.

and PS Gregory; normally, I would not discuss a forum member in a personal way; this is a one time event

There is no excuse for dishonesty.  There is no excuse for sin.  Period.  Honest disagreement is one thing.  Taking dishonest positions is another.  Twisting individual A's comments by individual B so that B can alledge A said something their words never said so that B can condemn A is just flat out dishonest.  It is lying.  Period. 

I have a far different view of life than you do.  I have suffered a great deal due to the dishonesty of others. It destroyed decades of my life, and caused me to work at destroying myself for a long time.  I see, and have seen for decades, dishonesty being used to hurt others on a daily basis.  This entire world is in the condition it is in because of dishonesty.  All the pain, suffering, death, and misery we see is due to it.  Without dishonesty none of these negatives would exist.  Yet, what do we do?  We make excuses for it.  Why?  It is the most destructive force in the universe.  It stands in complete opposition to God and everything He stands for.  And yet Christians want to make excuses for it?  Why should we excuse that which has destroyed billions of lives?  What can legitimately excuse it before God?  Nothing.  Lying lips are an abomination before God. 

Those who would stoop to that I cannot trust.  And I cannot be a friend to someone I cannot trust.  Friendship implies trust, and dishonesty is inimical, or in other words, hostile, to trust. 

There is a story out of WWII about a Christian family who helped Jews escape the Nazis.  They hid Jews in their own home under the dining room floor that was accessed by a trapdoor.  That trapdoor was covered by a rug and their dining table.   One evening as they were eating their evening meal the Gestapo came to their home looking for Jews for someone had reported them.  The Gestapo asked them where the Jews were, and because the man had always told the truth he did this time too.  He pointed down below him and said, They are right below us.  The Nazi's searched the entire house, except below their dining room table, and went away angry because they couldn't find the Jews. 

God honored that man's honesty.  He remained honest even though he thought it was going to cost him his life.  And God used that honesty to save lives, for what Nazi was ever going to believe that someone was going to be honest with them?  Their own evil made it impossible for them to trust the words of another person. 

Honesty is not only the best policy.  It is the only policy. 

[Gary K]

On 8/30/2017 at 0:18 PM, The Wanderer said:

Gary K stated:

GaryK; I appreciate your candor, and sharing of thoughts on this; and your earnestness in seeking truth. As one who has done palliative care for a number of years, on a professionalbasis, there are a few things that I picked up along the way.

1)  As Christians, we must always present The Hope. The Hope we all have in Christ, and in His Ability, and His Desire to save "to the uttermost." (Heb 7:25). When I see someone say the kinds of things you have just said in this post to "support/prove" you contention, I am immediately drawn to a very important truth, which I feel people often overlook.There is  an important truth called "the unspoken cry of the heart."

Let us remember that Jesus knows us individually and is touched with the feeling of our infirmities. He knows the wants of each of His creatures and reads the hidden, unspoken grief of every heart. If one of the little ones for whom He died is injured, He sees it and calls the offender to account. Jesus is the Good Shepherd. He cares for His feeble, sickly, wandering sheep. He knows them all by name. The distress of every sheep and every lamb of His flock touches His heart of sympathizing love, and the cry for aid reaches His ear. One of the greatest sins of the shepherds of Israel is thus pointed out by the prophet: "The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them. And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, My flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them."  {5T 345.2}

We do NOT "search" or "seek after them" by scaring them into some doctrine we think they need before they die. Thats kind of like going up to a man with cancer, and trying to preach to him about "the mark of the beast," insofar as we judge how certain ones need to 'accept" the truth, or a certain "truth," as we so choose to designate." Without the helping hands of sympathy, and the soothing mercies of a cup of cold water, or needed medicines and therapies, many on their sickbeds will miss out on their eleventh-hour wages. And that puts us who supposedly "have the real truth" at fault!! 

You have no way of knowing what took place between Christ and these people whom you say you "will never see again," in those last few moments before they passed away.

When we live a lifetime of refusing to listen to the Holy Spirit we reach the point where we cannot hear Him.  The Jewish leaders of Christ's day are excellent examples of this. 

The Holy Spirit works with us, all of us, every day, every hour, every minute.  He pleads with us to turn around, to stop destroying ourselves, and if we continue to ignore Him, His voice becomes fainter and fainter until we no longer hear Him.  If we are listening to Him our lives will change under that wooing.  Not might change.  Will change.  If our lives do not change it is the evidence that we are not listening to Him, and that His voice is becoming fainter to us all the time.  It truly is a fearful thing to ignore the Holy Spirit, as we are cutting our own throats when we refuse to listen. 

However much I would want to believe in a deathbed confession by my friends the evidence leads elsewhere.  I would love to see them in heaven.  All the evidence says otherwise.  And that's not condemning them either.  I see them in a positive light.  They were good to me.  They just made a habit of rejecting God in their lives, and they had done it for decades.  It pains me to say it, but say it I must.  Honesty forces me to as the Bible tells us that God will destroy those who destroy His temple.  I don't blame them.  I blame sin. 

[Gary K]

On 8/30/2017 at 0:45 PM, JoeMo said:

We have no way of knowing what was in God's heart or their hearts.  God judges the heart - not the outward appearance.  I'm glad you're not God, Gary.  If you knew me, you probably would have written me off long ago.  Have you ever heard the saying that "the spirit is willing; but the flesh is weak"?  That's how it is with addictions like smoking and sugar.  They don't think of it as "killing themselves".  They see it as satisfying a persistent craving.  Just because all of us aren't as strong-willed, disciplined, and righteous as you seem to be doesn't mean we're lost.  We are saved by grace; not by effective, consistent behavior management.  Jesus didn't die to make bad people good; He died to make dead people alive.  God doesn't save us because we are good; He saves us because HE is good.  There is nothing we can do to make God love us any more or less than He loves us right now.  God alone writes names in the Book of Life or blots them out.  I would rather err in my judgement of others on the side of mercy, not retribution.  I believe that's how God looks at things.  I could be wrong.

JoeMo,

No.  I'm not God. And I'm glad I'm not. 

I too am weak.  Very weak.  I spent decades in destroying myself and my own moral character.  That has left me weak.  It has left me so weak that I know without a doubt that my only hope is to trust in God's promises.  And God does keep His promises.  He never fails.  It is by HIS power that I left drugs, alcohol, etc... behind.  It's by HIS power that I left addiction behind.  If it was only up to me I would still be getting high daily, or more likely, dead already.  God is much, much greater than sin.  He has the ability to take the very weakest of us and make Elijahs and Daniels out of us. 

I have found over the years that it is only my lack of faith that ever leaves me weak.  It's when I don't trust God that I fail and fall.  It's when I trust to myself, and to my power, that I do fall and fail.  You want to stop whatever it is that is your besetting sin?  Turn it over to God.  Find the promises of God in the Bible that mean the most to you and claim them.  And keep on claiming them.  Tell God just how weak you are.  Then every time the temptation comes turn first to God.  Tell him you're about to tall, but that you don't want to.  And then just trust Him.  Hang on even though it seems impossible to you, and God will accomplish the impossible in you.  His strength is made perfect in our weakness. 

Do I condemn you?  Not in the least.  I know the power of sin.  I've personally experienced it.  I know by experience how seductive, how powerful, it is.  But I have also experienced the power of God.  And God is as much greater than sin as He is as much greater than you and I.  We only fail because we fail to trust.  That's the voice of experience, not of condemnation. 

[Gary K]

17 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

lol, well my friend, I dont want to get into comparing bruises and saying who has the biggest one, but from what you have said so-far, I can see that I have had just as rough a time in life as you, if not more. And if you are "far different than me" that doesnt really prove anything that you can know for sure about me, because you have not met me in person. The biggest thing we can admit here online is that we dont really know as much as we often feel we do about others online.

Well, we have a very different outlook on many things, including how we choose friends.  You call someone who will stoop regularly to dishonesty your friend.  I never would.  Friendship must be based upon trust.  If it is not, it is not friendship for friends do not lie to each other.  It's a self-destructive streak, for dishonest people are not trustworthy.  If they will lie about one thing they will lie about anything.  If they will decieve one person they will do their best to decieve others too.  It's their nature.   I see it as no different than taking in a thief.  A thief will steal from anyone and everyone.  To trust a thief is to make sure you get ripped off.  To trust a liar is to make sure you get deceived.  

In regards to friendship, I will take quality over quantity every day of the week.  I consider God my friend for the very reason that He is trustworthy.  I love and respect Him for the same reason.  I know I can place myself in His hands and I will always be dealt with honestly and fairly.  That's what I require from anyone who is my friend.  You?  Not so much.  That's a big divide between us. 

If someone will lie online, they will lie anywhere.  It's in their blood, so to speak.  They think the anonymity of being online protects them from the consequences, but there is no hiding from God.  There is no anonymity with God.  He will hold us accountable. 

[LifeHiscost]

On 9/3/2017 at 8:14 AM, The Wanderer said:

Very true!!

  

9/3/2017 at 3:04 AM, Gary K said:

Honesty is not only the best policy.  It is the only policy. 

 

I would say there is a policy generally being followed in our day and age that makes this injunction easy to be followed by those who answer to a higher calling.

25Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.....John 12

God is Love!~Jesus saves!