Opinion Poll of Adventists about Ordination of Women

[Gregory Matthews]

It is more than being politically correct.  It is a matter of being able to hire the required number of guards needed to work in the    various prisons.

The U.S. is far from the only country that  does this.

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Rachel, you ask how much should a person know prior to being baptized.  This is a major and important question.  The general opinion in the SDA denomination has been that a person should know enough to become a congregational member.  In the past, people who did not adhere to this were "advised" to comply.  In the present  life of the SDA denomination people who do not comply with this generally are left alone.

My personal positon has generally been that congregational spiritual is an important part of one's spiritual life (See Hebrews).  Therefore,  I have refuse to baptize people who told me that they would not associate with a congregation.  Of course, if I were faced with a situation, such as a prisoner, who could not attend a local congregation, I would likely consider doing so.

 

Hilda "knows enough to become a congregational member".  The question is:  of which congregation?   Because she also "knows enough", that she does not want to "become a member" of those congregations who hold beliefs with which she disagrees.  She does not want her teenage children taught things which disagree with the things she is trying to teach them. 

How much disagreement (concerning doctrinal beliefs) is compatible with "membership" in a congregation with whose doctrinal beliefs one disagrees. 

Can a person survive as a believer, who is NOT a member of a congregation?   Does not the believer become a "member" of the larger congregation of Christ?  Last Spring, we had 7 people at my house for Passover.  Is that a "congregation"?

Gregory, we have talked about this before.  I would LOVE to find a church family.  ( I feel that, to some extent, I HAVE found one here on CA.)

I don't think there IS one that holds every belief that I hold, but I could be comfortable in one that believed the main things -  the Sabbath, the sleep of the dead, annihilation of the wicked, informed choice required of EVERY person (which necessitates a resurrection at the 8th millennium to educate those who died in ignorance or childhood),  and worship ONLY of God our Father and Christ His Son (TWO divine beings). 

Find me one that teaches these things, that is within an hour driving distance from my home.   (Hilda would need a Spanish speaking congregation.)  Believe me when I say I have searched.   

Though I seriously doubt my husband would drive an hour every week. 

I do listen to Sabbath sermons on the net.  Hilda listens to some also, and then calls to ask me questions about what the pastor taught.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel, I cannot and will not judge either you or Hilda.  I am stating where I am personally.

Your question related to how much disagreement with the taught beliefs is important.  Where people draw the lines will restrict the congregations that they will consider jointing

I can't tell you where to draw the lines for yourself.

That is between you and God and I am not God.  (Regardless of one of our members asking me if I thought that I was God.)

 

[8thdaypriest]

There is a tire and auto repair service here in Palestine.  The owner - Joe, I've known for years.  We speak briefly when I take my car in.  A guy from his place came out two weeks ago to repair our tractor tire.  Joe always has a Bible open on the desk at his business.  We will speak briefly about the LORD.  Joe is studying for a master's in Biblical studies at a college about half hour from Palestine. 

Anyway, on Tuesday last week, as I was heading out the driveway, the warning light came on for tire pressure.  It stayed on all the way to town.  So - I pulled into Bratz Tire for them to check it.  Joe as alone in the front, and while his guy checked my tire Joe and I talked.  Wow!!  He was asking questions and I was answering, and the words were just pouring out and I was remembering all the right verses.  (When that happens, I know it is HIM - not me.)   By the time my tire was done, Joe was saying that he would have to do some serious studying and praying about what I had told him.  

So there are opportunities for witness - even in very small towns.  I think an angel let the air out of my tire.  lol 

[8thdaypriest]

38 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

It is more than being politically correct.  It is a matter of being able to hire the required number of guards needed to work in the    various prisons.

The U.S. is far from the only country that  does this.

 

 

Gregory,

Do you think I should NOT have baptized Hilda?

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel:  I do not believe that your baptism of Hilda violated any Biblical norms.

So, why not?  Anything else  is between you, God and Hilda.  No one else needs to be involved.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

The official SDA position would NOT require Hilda to be baptized again.  In the past, people have been accepted into membership in a local congregation under similar situations.  I have in the back of my mind that there is a published story of such happening in a case where the person had baptized himself.  But, my memory may have failed. 

The SDA Church officially accepts baptism by immersion as valid outside of Adventism.

To be blunt:  Under SDA policy, Hilda would be accepted into SDA membership and the baptism by Rachel, on profession of faith, if that is what Hilda wanted and the local congregation believed Hilda understood and accepted the basic SDA teachings to the same extent that others would be so required.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Sometimes issues of membership are more complex that they appear to be on the surface.  Let me illustrate.  For privacy reasons I will take steps to prevent the people involved from being identified.

Sam was a person who had served the SDA denomination for a number of years.  He was a member of a local SDA congregation and in a position of local leadership.  The time came when the congrational pastor and the congrational  Board removed Sam from his position of local leadership.  He was told that he could continue to teach his adult Sabbath School class and he could teach it as he wished.  But, he could not continue  in certain local leadership roles and if he attempted to do so, that would have to be further addressed. 

The result was that Sam and his family left that congregation and joined another SDA Congregation.  NOTE:  They were all granted membership transfers.  With the passage of time, Sam and his family left the SDA congregation that they had joined.

The issue was not what Sam wanted to teach, even though what Sam wanted to teach is not accepted by all SDAs.  He was free to tech in his adult Sabbath School Class.  People were free attend or not attend his class as they wished.  He was given space for his SS Class, even if not the exact space that he wanted.

The fundamental issue was that of how Sam related to the rest of the congregation and to the pastoral leadership team who was in charge of the Congregation.  It was that issue that resulted in Sam leaving the congregation.  In my opinion, it is this issue that can be problematic for some people who may not agree with every aspect of traditional SDA belief and life style.

Another Illustration:   Robert was a local leader in a SDA congregation.  He was also a local businessperson.  He held to a non-traditional view as to when the Sabbath was to begin and end.  That is what he practiced in his business life.  The result was that for short periods of time, at certain seasons of the year, His business might be open on the edges of the Sabbath.  He functioned will within the congregation due to how he related to it.  IOW, he did not harass the members to come over to his view.  Yes it is true that in some sections of the world, minority groups exist that hold the same view that Robert held.  The SDA has accommodated those  groups in those areas.  So also, Robert was accommodated, even though no other members held to  his specific view in that congregation.  

For those who want to know:  Robert believed that the Sabbath began and ended at 6 PM everywhere in the world and at all times of the year.

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Sam:  People could chose to attend his class.  They could study for themselves and decide whether or not they wanted to believe the same way.  Case in point:   In another time and place I attended for several years a Sabbath School class taught by a man who clearly challenged people to think.  I an indebted to him in a number of areas for being the cause that resulted in my study in areas that I had never studied before and formulating my personal belief on that subject.  Yet, I thought that his personal beliefs were outside of Adventism and  very dangerous.  But, I recognized that he would soundly reject such a view and I would be unable to prove it to denominational officials.  The only real effective responsive to this issue would be to let the Lord lead, wait for it to become more clear as to exactly what he was teaching in his class, and for leadership to come into place who had the ability to deal with it and to take the action needed.  It took several years after I moved from the area for all of that to take place.  But, in the process of time it all took place and he stopped attending a SDA church, and that ended his class.  He  was able to continue teaching his beliefs in the Internet and in small groups in his home, but his role in a local congregation had ended. 

Driving on the Sabbath:  Your illustration seems to be of a person who does not represent most Adventists.

By the way, many SDA clergy drive more than 100 miles on the Sabbath in order to serve their congregations.

As an example:  One Sabbath it was asked for people to tell how far they had traveled to attend church.   I pointed out that I had traveled more than 1,000 miles that morning in order to make it to church.  My wife had picked me up at the airport and driven me directly to church.  Now I did not have to have done that.  I  could have stayed in a hotel with no way to attend a local SDA congregation and I could have flown on Sunday.  But, I made a decision.   That decision was that my Sabbath keeping would be more in line with what God wanted of me if I returned early Sabbath morning than it would if I stayed in the hotel for an extra day. So, I arranged for an early flight   out of the isolated area where I was and was worshiping in my home congregation that morning.  Folks, let us be reasonable.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Sam is the person who was given the freedom to teach a Sabbath School class, but lost his position of leadership, moved to another church and then moved again.

 

[Mark Leslie]

On 10/17/2017 at 6:22 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

Please note:  The above Biblical quote does not mention ordination.

 

Right - it mentions "women".

[Mark Leslie]

On 10/25/2017 at 11:32 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

There is a tire and auto repair service here in Palestine.  The owner - Joe, I've known for years.  We speak briefly when I take my car in.  A guy from his place came out two weeks ago to repair our tractor tire.  Joe always has a Bible open on the desk at his business.  We will speak briefly about the LORD.  Joe is studying for a master's in Biblical studies at a college about half hour from Palestine. 

Anyway, on Tuesday last week, as I was heading out the driveway, the warning light came on for tire pressure.  It stayed on all the way to town.  So - I pulled into Bratz Tire for them to check it.  Joe as alone in the front, and while his guy checked my tire Joe and I talked.  Wow!!  He was asking questions and I was answering, and the words were just pouring out and I was remembering all the right verses.  (When that happens, I know it is HIM - not me.)   By the time my tire was done, Joe was saying that he would have to do some serious studying and praying about what I had told him.  

So there are opportunities for witness - even in very small towns.  I think an angel let the air out of my tire.  lol 

Absolutley ASTOUNDING! Wonderful and THANK YOU for being a minister for the Gospel! This is what we all should be doing.

[Gerr]

I would have more confidence in a poll conducted by some other agency than AToday.

[CoAspen]

Quote

I would have more confidence in a poll conducted by some other agency than AToday.

Could you give us an example or two?

[stinsonmarri]

On 10/25/2017 at 12:22 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Hilda "knows enough to become a congregational member".  The question is:  of which congregation?   Because she also "knows enough", that she does not want to "become a member" of those congregations who hold beliefs with which she disagrees.  She does not want her teenage children taught things which disagree with the things she is trying to teach them. 

How much disagreement (concerning doctrinal beliefs) is compatible with "membership" in a congregation with whose doctrinal beliefs one disagrees. 

Can a person survive as a believer, who is NOT a member of a congregation?   Does not the believer become a "member" of the larger congregation of Christ?  Last Spring, we had 7 people at my house for Passover.  Is that a "congregation"?

Gregory, we have talked about this before.  I would LOVE to find a church family.  ( I feel that, to some extent, I HAVE found one here on CA.)

I don't think there IS one that holds every belief that I hold, but I could be comfortable in one that believed the main things -  the Sabbath, the sleep of the dead, annihilation of the wicked, informed choice required of EVERY person (which necessitates a resurrection at the 8th millennium to educate those who died in ignorance or childhood),  and worship ONLY of God our Father and Christ His Son (TWO divine beings). 

Find me one that teaches these things, that is within an hour driving distance from my home.   (Hilda would need a Spanish speaking congregation.)  Believe me when I say I have searched.   

Though I seriously doubt my husband would drive an hour every week. 

I do listen to Sabbath sermons on the net.  Hilda listens to some also, and then calls to ask me questions about what the pastor taught.

 

 

Sometime we allow our beliefs to overshadow our faith. (Heb 11th Chapter) I am a SDA, not by religion or denomination, but by faith. My faith is why I keep the Sabbath and with this faith is waiting the second coming of YAHSHUA. It's my faith that keep the Holy Convocation and observe YAHWEH'S true lunar/solar calendar. My faith knows that both male and female are equal and was made that way by THE FATHER'S SON!  I obey and understand all things through faith and then the Bible says we work by obeying but it is all under faith.

Rachel, I do need to keep the passover supper anymore because through faith YAHSHUA became THE PASSOVER LAMB. So I keep YAHSHUA Supper on the Holy Convocation of Unleavened Bread. See it is faith that helps me to understand through THE POWER of THE HOLY SPIRIT, that the word feast is a pagan word meaning to over indulge. The passover supper and YAHSHUA'S Supper there is no over indulging. That's what Paul was stating to the Corinthians and my faith gives me that understanding.

To me belief systems are overemphasized and changes like the wind. Truth is constant and it never changes and faith give us that anchor that keeps us steadfast, unmovable. When the storms of beliefs are raging, I am anchored through faith in the arms of truth given to me by THE HOLY SPIRIT, who is cleaning me up. When I allowed HIM to clean up my mind by faith and obey HIS VOICE and listen to the truth, then I become changed. It is THE HOLY SPIRIT that seals us and once we are clean in the mind, a knock comes at the door of my mind. This is YAHSHUA ready to give me the robe of righteousness that I have earn through faith along with work of obedience. Now my name remains in the Book of Life and the sealing process for me is done!

Happy Sabbath to all and be bless! 

[Mark Leslie]

On 10/17/2017 at 6:22 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

Please note:  The above Biblical quote does not mention ordination.

 

That is absurd, of course - but by this same thinking - nowhere, absolutely nowhere is there a woman pastor, or woman elder named, suggested, or even hinted at in the Bible.

[Mark Leslie]

On 10/25/2017 at 3:00 AM, The Wanderer said:

If you go to this link, you would see something very interesting. Lady Gaga, and Richard Branson, among others are currently "ordained."

Oh man!... lol.