Christian Disagreement

[Gregory Matthews]

See:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2017/october/kaepernick-protest-pence.html?utm_source=ctweekly-html&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_term=16245031&utm_content=542044568&utm_campaign=email

 

[phkrause]

Excellent article!! The one thing that I didn't read, or missed!! Is that this was not a political/patriotic issue, until Trump made it one!!!!! I very much agree with the quote of Obama! That's what we should be hearing from our POTUS, instead of dividing our country every opportunity he and others of his administration get!!!!!

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, phkrause said:

I very much agree with the quote of Obama! That's what we should be hearing from our POTUS, instead of dividing our country every opportunity he and others of his administration get!

Obama ought to know about dividing our country at every opportunity.  He was great at it.

[CoAspen]

Quote

Obama ought to know about dividing our country at every opportunity.  He was great at it.

Could you give us some examples for clarification?

[phkrause]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Obama ought to know about dividing our country at every opportunity.  He was great at it.

The only thing that made him seem like he was dividing the country was the fact that he was an African American and those that didn't want an AA to be POTUS started making an uproar!!! And every time he tried getting involved they made a big uproar!!

[JoeMo]

24 minutes ago, phkrause said:

The only thing that made him seem like he was dividing the country was the fact that he was an African American and those that didn't want an AA to be POTUS started making an uproar!!! And every time he tried getting involved they made a big uproar!!

Aahh; pulling the old race card. A real conversation ender.  IMHO Obama caused an uproar because he is a globalist trying to redistribute wealth and sell out America to the wishes of the U.N., and trying to undermine the current administration.  He is also anti-Israel and probably anti-Christian.  To be clear, Obama is not even totally African American.  He's half Caucasian.

Isn't the antichrist a globalist, anti-Israel, and anti-Christian?  I'm not saying Obama is the antichrist (maybe a cousin, though).

[CoAspen]

JoeMo, what conspiracy are you hooked on!! Anit-Israel and anti-Christian, sell out America!!!Wow....maybe a few 'proofs' would be helpful, don't you think! Undermine the current admin, now that is really funny, Trump is doing his best already!! Obama has been very quiet and only lately has he spoke his feelings as have the other former presidents. Last I remember, it is still a free country, you are not suggesting that speaking out against the admin is anti-American? Joe, say it ain't so!

[JoeMo]

On 10/27/2017 at 3:28 PM, CoAspen said:

Last I remember, it is still a free country, you are not suggesting that speaking out against the admin is anti-American? Joe, say it ain't so!

Sure people can say what they want.  This is a free country and a forum where we can speak freely.  My personal opinion is that Donald Trump is president for a reason.  If God establishes kings (or presidents), then he established Trump as a leader for our times.  Saying that the only reason people think Obama was divisive was because he is African American is simply another way of saying "you're a racist".  Obama and his chosen successor (Hillary) were unconsciously (not purposefully) leading this country and the world down a path to global domination by (IMHO) evil spiritual forces bent on bringing about the end of Judeo-Christianity.

But it doesn't matter what I think.  as Christians we know that:

"12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." (Rom. 8:12)

Therefore, whichever party is right or wrong, our enemy is satan and his ilk - not each other.  The fact is that either one or both sides is wrong - they both can't be right.  One side supports unrestrained abortion (equivalent to the child sacrifice of the OT?); the other does not.  One side supports total acceptance in all circumstances of the LGBTQ community, the other does not.  One side accepts all forms of faith (including pagans and atheists, the other wants to stick strictly to traditional conservative Judeo-Christian principles.  One side supports Israel as a sovereign nation, the other side does not.  I am not the ultimate judge on which side is right.  I just know my opinion based on what I have researched.  

[CoAspen]

Joe, I know this isn't a politicol forum but you bring a mixture of religion and politics that is interesting to say the lest. In my mind it leans towards the conspiracy side. You make the statement " Obama and his chosen successor (Hillary) were unconsciously (not purposefully) leading this country and the world down a path to global domination by (IMHO) evil spiritual forces bent on bringing about the end of Judeo-Christianity." Give us some facts that you base that on. You also say "One side supports unrestrained abortion (equivalent to the child sacrifice of the OT?)" What do you call 'unrestrained'? Again you're words " One side supports total acceptance in all circumstances of the LGBTQ community, the other does not." What does that mean? Next you say " One side accepts all forms of faith (including pagans and atheists, the other wants to stick strictly to traditional conservative Judeo-Christian principles." , you go on to say that "One side supports Isreal as sovereign nation, the other side doesn't." Again, what is your pfoof of that statement as I find that completely false. You believe that God established Trump as a leader for our times, I don't because then I would have to go down the path  of Him establishing some might evil rulers in the world! Oh, its only for this country that He establishes leaders, are you saying? Based on your words you seem to be saying that the Republicans are the savior to the world! Only one side can be right! 

Not sure what you're sources for all of this are, but I can find no support for the above ideas in any non-conspiracy or non partisan news source. Yes, its there through out the Brietbarts of the country and other such hate sources seeking to divide. 

Waiting for your response!

[phkrause]

4 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Saying that the only reason people think Obama was divisive was because he is African American is simply another way of saying "you're a racist"

On 10/27/2017 at 2:01 PM, JoeMo said:

Aahh; pulling the old race card.

Absolutely not!!!!!!!!!! I have never called anyone in all my life a racist!!!!!!!!!! And never will!!!!! Oh and never would I imply that!! I also know quite a few people that have told me right out, that they would never vote for an African American!! And also the KKK and all the other supremist groups came out of there semi-retirement when Obama got elect, tell me that his election didn't start the great divide????? And when Trump started his campaign, tell me he didn't pickup on that????? Yes I agree that God definitely allowed Trump to win, but just because he allows someone to win or become the top dog, doesn't mean its for the better???

[debbym]

9 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Sure people can say what they want.  This is a free country and a forum where we can speak freely.  My personal opinion is that Donald Trump is president for a reason.  If God establishes kings (or presidents), then he established Trump as a leader for our times.  

following this logic, God established Obama as president as a leader for our times,  he was president for a reason,  for two terms, no less.

[JoeMo]

On 10/29/2017 at 2:02 AM, debbym said:

God established Obama as president as a leader for our times

Yes, He did - no denying that.

On 10/28/2017 at 5:11 PM, CoAspen said:

You make the statement " Obama and his chosen successor (Hillary) were unconsciously (not purposefully) leading this country and the world down a path to global domination by (IMHO) evil spiritual forces bent on bringing about the end of Judeo-Christianity." Give us some facts that you base that on.

I respect your challenge, CoA; to do so on this board would take way too long as a"post"  Besides, all I can  offer is evidence - not proof.  You can call it conspiratorial if you wish.  As an alternative, I recommend watching the attached video by Jonathan Cahn - a best-selling Messianic Jewish rabbi.

https://usawatchdog.com/god-using-trump-to-provide-window-of-time-jonathan-cahn/

 

On 10/28/2017 at 5:11 PM, CoAspen said:

you bring a mixture of religion and politics that is interesting to say the lest

Of course I do!  When I read Daniel and Revelation, I see a mixture of religion, politics, and economics.  My view of end times sees all 3 of these uniting against God's chosen people, who will appear to be defeated until Christ comes to our aid.  

[CoAspen]

evidence 

 the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid

proof

evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement

Actuall, evidense or proof are talking about the same issue, truth. Not to belabour the point but shouldn't your evidense profide proof? No to argue with you, I am just interested in how you have arrived at your conclusions You made some accusations against peoples/ideas that I am still interested in knowing how you arrived at those conclusions. Example: unrestrained abortion, what do you mean by that? What is your issue with 'accepting all forms of belief vs christian only'? Reading your post as a whole, you seem to saying republicanism is the saviour of the world/country and democratism is seeking to destroy the world/country.. That is a bold statement, what is your support for it?

Who are God's chosen people?

So is God playing games with us, I choose this leader...ooopps, wrong choice now lets choose this one, darn, wrong again! Did God choose Hitler as a leader or any other despot? 

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, CoAspen said:

unrestrained abortion, what do you mean by that?

I mean that anyone who wants an abortion can get one on demand; and if the woman can't afford it the government, some "charity", or some insurance company will pay for it using my tax money or insurance premium payments.

 

2 hours ago, CoAspen said:

Reading your post as a whole, you seem to saying republicanism is the saviour of the world/country and democratism is seeking to destroy the world/country

It's not an issue of Republicans vs. Democrats; it's an issue of globalism vs. nationalism.  It just so happens that Dems support globalism more than Republicans.  IMHO, Globalism puts the entire planet on a path to the antichrist - a global leader who will enforce his rules on everyone;  (including some form of hack-proof personal identification {Mark of Beast?}) or they won't  be able to buy and sell.  Buying and selling takes place in the marketplace - not the spiritual realm.  Opening the U.S. doors to huge immigration from the Middle East; and not reinforcing or border with Mexico is a HUGE risk.  Want proof?  Look at the terrorist attacks that plague Western Europe.  Who are the main culprits?  Islamic terrorists and undocumented criminals coming over our border with Mexico.

2 hours ago, CoAspen said:

What is your issue with 'accepting all forms of belief vs christian only'?

I agree that that was pretty much an overstatement.  As a Christian, naturally I would like to see Christianity become the "world religion" (which it will become in the earth made new).  But accepting all forms of belief, and persecuting those who don't (like suing or putting people in jail for not baking cakes for gay weddings; and teaching mystical religion in schools while outlawing all forms of Christian education) takes it too far.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong.  I'm just saying I don't believe the way you do.  If we dug deep enough, we could likely find all sorts of areas where we don't agree. 

That is no reason to disrespect each other.  I don't think we're showing any disrespect to each other here; we are sticking to issues. I like healthy debate; and you are good at keeping things "healthy".  IMHO, we are having healthy Christian disagreement - no name-calling; no judgement; just healthy issue-based debate.

2 hours ago, CoAspen said:

Who are God's chosen people?

Israel - both ethnic and spiritual Israel.

2 hours ago, CoAspen said:

So is God playing games with us, I choose this leader...ooopps, wrong choice now lets choose this one, darn, wrong again! Did God choose Hitler as a leader or any other despot?

That is a very good question, to which I have no sensible answer other than that's what it literally says in scripture.

“Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever; wisdom and power are his.  He changes times and seasons;   he deposes kings and raises up others." (Dan. 2:20-21)

[CoAspen]

Thanks for the feed back! Ya, we disagree on some issues here.

Isreal may have been 'choosen' at one time, but not anymore as they gave it up when they rejected Him. For me, anyone who follows Christ is saved. He choose to save the whole world and did, now it is up to the individul to accept the gift.

They are restrictions on abortion as to when it can take place, it is not w/o regulation. So, it can not be done, willy-nilly!

Quote

Look at the terrorist attacks that plague Western Europe. Who are the main culprits?  Islamic terrorists and undocumented criminals coming over our border with Mexico.

That is pure Trumpism, the stats saying the statement is not true are in the literature disproving the statement. But those that don't want to believe simply call it 'fake news'.  http://www.nber.org/papers/w13229, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4078741/, https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/criminalization-immigration-united-states

Baking cakes.....so you feel discrimination is okay if you're 'straight' and call yourself a christian? Why not be able to discriminate against race, any religion, looks or anything else? Using religious belief to discriminate against gay people is not about religious freedom but simply a dislike of that persons lifestyle. The NT has a whole list of issues that 'christians' don't discriminate on, gossip, back biting, etc, etc. So no, I don't buy that 'freedom issue' in any size shape or form. If you are a public business, than abide by the rules or find something else to do. 

Nationalism is a range of political, social, and economic systems characterized by promoting the interests of a particular nation, particularly with the aim of gaining and maintaining self-governance, or full sovereignty, over the group's homeland. The political ideology therefore holds that a nation should governitself, free from unwanted outside interference, and is linked to the concept of self-determination. Nationalism is further oriented towards developing and maintaining a national identity based on shared characteristics such as culture, language, race, religion, political goals or a belief in a common ancestry.^[1][2]Nationalism therefore seeks to preserve the nation's culture. It often also involves a sense of pride in the nation's achievements, and is closely linked to the concept of patriotism. In some cases, nationalism referred to the belief that a nation should be able to control the government and all means of production.^{[3] (from wiki)}

Does this sound familiar? Yes, there are parts of it that sound wonderful, but what is actually practiced based on history?

globalism 

 the operation or planning of economic and foreign policy on a global basis (American English Dict)

Like it or not but the world has shrunk, we must all work together. To stand alone as if others do not exist or exert any influence on a country is naive. Surrond ourselves with walls and keep out the evil hoards, how has that worked in history. Globalism is a much more complicated subject with many forms. So when talking about it, a definition needs to be in place to discuss in a sensible manner. I read through the Wiki documents and still don't know what people mean when talking about it. Useing the  word is very much like calling someone 'liberal'. 

[JoeMo]

When I look at the direction of the planet from the point of view of prophecy, I can't help but think that the world is headed towards the end of days.  I focus a lot (some might think too much) on eschatology.  Others are more concerned with how social issues impact Christianity's relationship with the world.

Some would say that Trump has brought the US (and maybe the world) a little more time of mercy than we would have had under Hillary.  Others say he has accelerated the slide into world chaos.  I guess time will tell.

15 hours ago, CoAspen said:

Thanks for the feed back! Ya, we disagree on some issues here.

Yes we do; but that does not detract from my respect for you as a frequent poster here.  Your arguments are logical and non-threatening.

15 hours ago, CoAspen said:

Baking cakes.....so you feel discrimination is okay if you're 'straight' and call yourself a christian?

Where is the line between discrimination and conviction to one's conscience?  If someone REALLY thinks same-sex marriage is an abomination; and considers it sinful to support it in any way, should they be forced to sell them a cake anyways to appease the world?  Why can't the couple just go buy a cake at another bakery?  I'd like to see if a devout Muslim baker who refused to bake a cake for a gay couple would suffer the same fate as the devout Christian baker (assuming a gay couple would have the guts to try to order a wedding cake from a devout Muslim baker; and them sue him for discrimination if he refused).

[CoAspen]

Thanks for the reply, I reckon time will tell!

[Woody]

Ready to put all this nonsense behind us.
Hope Jesus puts an end to it all VERY soon.
I'm longing for Heaven.

[LifeHiscost]

   The calamities by land and sea, the unsettled state of society, the alarms of war, are portentous. They forecast approaching

events of the greatest magnitude. The agencies of evil are combining their forces and consolidating. They are strengthening for the last great crisis. Great changes are soon to take place in our world, and the final movements will be rapid ones.—Testimonies for the Church 9:11 (1909). {LDE 11.2}    

 

Events appear to be right on time.

3Later, Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?^a”

4Jesus told them, “Don’t let anyone mislead you, 5for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will deceive many. 6And you will hear of wars and threats of wars, but don’t panic. Yes, these things must take place, but the end won’t follow immediately. 7Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in many parts of the world. 8But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come.

9“Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers.^b 10And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. 11And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. 12Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. 13But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations^c will hear it; and then the end will come.

15“The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about—the sacrilegious object that causes desecration^d standing in the Holy Place.” (Reader, pay attention!) 16“Then those in Judea must flee to the hills. 17A person out on the deck of a roof must not go down into the house to pack. 18A person out in the field must not return even to get a coat. 19How terrible it will be for pregnant women and for nursing mothers in those days. 20And pray that your flight will not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. 22In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones.....Matthew 24

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!     

[JoeMo]

14 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

There is no human alive now, in the past, or in the future who could ever come close to changing the timeline of Bible prophecy.

Then what does this verse mean?

"Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives ¹² as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming." (2 Peter 3:11)?

Didn't EGW make some comment like "If we had done the job assigned to us, the Lord would have come long before now"?

14 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Trump has absolutely nothing to do with it.

I didn't say that's what I believe; but I have heard other people express that opinion.

Like CoA said above - time will tell.

[JoeMo]

9 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

God is actually in control, and that He calls the shots, and that there is known neither haste nor delay in His time; in Bible prophecy time.

I actually agree with this statement 100%. I would like to add that I don't  think God does measures time like we humans do.  God is transcendent of  time; we humans are captive to time.  Could it be that God measures the passage of time by the sequence of events rather than the passing of minutes, days, and years?

Taking religion out of the equation, it seems to me that with exponential population growth and the increasing strain on earth's resources and destruction of the environment,  that some sort of natural or man-made "extinction event" (aka end of the age) will eventually occur.

[phkrause]

On 11/1/2017 at 10:57 AM, JoeMo said:

Then what does this verse mean?

"Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives ¹² as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming." (2 Peter 3:11)?

Didn't EGW make some comment like "If we had done the job assigned to us, the Lord would have come long before now"?

Yes she did and yet people say she doesn't know what she's talking about!! But yet there it is in the Bible! The word of God!! To take this a step further, I know of a number of theologies that have said the same, and as a matter of fact some believe that if the Jews had of excepted Jesus, we probably wouldn't have been born? Because Jesus would've already have come??

[phkrause]

On 10/31/2017 at 8:07 PM, The Wanderer said:

Trump has absolutely nothing to do with it.

That's very true!! I actually would put it this way: Trump has no choice in the matter!! He obviously was picked for some reason! Whatever that reason is? It could be as we see right now, church and state coming closer and closer? It, at least in my opinion, would not be happening had it been any other candidate??

[JoeMo]

14 hours ago, phkrause said:

and as a matter of fact some believe that if the Jews had of excepted Jesus, we probably wouldn't have been born? Because Jesus would've already have come??

Who knows?  The fact is that - for whatever reason - He hasn't come yet.  I'm kinda glad about that, because now I have a crack at eternal life with Him! 

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Dear Jesus, please DO NOT come today. I will be 'more' ready tomorrow."

"It's not because of who I am,

It's because of what You've done.

It's not because of What I've done

It's because of Who You are!"

                      - Casting Crowns

Jesus didn't die to make bad people good; He died to make dead people alive.  He doesn't save you because you're good; He saves you because He's good!

Do you believe that Jesus is who He says He is; and did a good enough job to redeem you when He came here to earth?  That He paid a high enough price for you? Then welcome to the Kingdom!