Re: Migrants

[Gerr]

I'm not sure exactly what forum to post this on since it crosses so many boundaries, so the moderator can move it where  he/she feels it belongs to.

As a Christian, and an Adventist in particular, how would you handle the migrants wanting to enter the country, do you let them in or turn them back?  How about the illegals who are already here?

[Gregory Matthews]

In my thinking there are several sections in which this topic could have been placed.  I do not think that it was wrong to place it in Town Hall.  But, in thinking about it, I decided that the best fit might  in the Real Issues section.  So, I moved it here.  It is a real issue that we are facing today in the U.S.

 

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I don't have any issues with people immigrating to the US.  I *do* have a problem when they do it illegally.

Before we start taking care of the "tired and poor" who want to be in the US illegally, I think we ought to be taking care of our *citizens* who are "tired and poor" — and veterans.  And the elderly.  And the orphans.  And the disabled.

re:  the illegal immigrants who are already here... well... my decidedly cantankerous response is, "boot them out," unless they have shown themselves to be productive and positive contributors to the nation, and are willing to become naturalized citizens within a specified time period.  Any crime should mean immediate deportation.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Failure to properly pay the meter for your parking spot, is not a crime for which I think one should be deported.

By the way, todays edition of the Sacramento Bee is reporting the  City of Sacramento issued thousands of tickets for a failure to pay the parking fee, to a "smart meter" that went "bonkers" and falsely reported that the person had failed to pay.

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

okay, you wanna get picky about terminology?  By CRIME, I mean doing something *intentionally* against the law that results in obligatory jail time.  

And if anyone doesn't like my opinion, that's too bad.  Your opinion is no better than mine.

[Gregory Matthews]

 

[phkrause]

11 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

As a Christian, and an Adventist in particular, how would you handle the migrants wanting to enter the country, do you let them in or turn them back?

I'd let them! The legal way, whatever that entails?? When I lived in California, there were many migrants, not sure if they were illegal or not, but they worked in the fields picking strawberry's, blueberry's, watermelons, etc., that Americans wouldn't do because it didn't pay enough!!!

[CoAspen]

Isn't it ironic....a country formed by taking the lands away from the inhabitants, then goes on to wanting to build walls to keep out other 'illegals'! it merely confirms the old adage, "to the victors goes the spoils." Of course the 'settlers' of NA were not the first to use this method of taking what belonged to others, many nations were formed this way. 

[8thdaypriest]

10 hours ago, CoAspen said:

Isn't it ironic....a country formed by taking the lands away from the inhabitants, then goes on to wanting to build walls to keep out other 'illegals'! it merely confirms the old adage, "to the victors goes the spoils." Of course the 'settlers' of NA were not the first to use this method of taking what belonged to others, many nations were formed this way. 

And "Native" American tribes (just means they were here before the Europeans got here) fought each other for territory and "spoils".   Greed is not a character trait only of Europeans. 

[8thdaypriest]

IF we keep them OUT: 

Tell the mother of 3, that the price of food will double or triple at the grocery store because crops must be picked and packaged by US citizens, who expect higher wages and more benefits.  Everyone will need those lower taxes and higher wages just to pay for the things they already buy. 

IF we allow them to ENTER:

Tell the mothers and grandmothers their kids will have to share their teachers with more kids.  Tell them the class sizes will get larger.  More teachers will be moved to special language classes.  Tell them there will be more violence at the high-schools, because kids are gang members.  Teachers will want higher wages just because they have to deal with all the chaos.  School budgets only stretch so far.  Property taxes will go up, which affects renters too.   Middle class citizens will move to other cities or states, to escape the high taxes, poor schools, and gang violence.

Hospitals will have to see more indigent patients, and free clinics will be crowded.  They will compensate by raising prices for everyone who can pay for services. 

The Stats tell us that half of all immigrants enter with children .  They immediately sign up for the Food Stamp program.   Those already on Food Stamps will get less, because the program has to cover more and more people.  Budgets only stretch so far. 

IF the "rich" give away all of their wealth, they will have nothing left with which to "serve" anyone.  I'm just not sure that is what Jesus had in mind.  The US cannot support  every person who wants to come here. 

Will they assimilate  - becoming productive members of US culture?  If they do - they won't want their kids picking crops. 

Barely scrapes the surface of the problems. 

[CoAspen]

So what is your solution?

[CoAspen]

We are a rich nation with loads of disposable income. What are the amounts of monies spent on sports and other types of entertainment? What about the monies spent on advertising of products trying to sell more products to make more money? What about the fact we have a for profit healthcare system that you can invest in to make more money? It's not about...."IF the "rich" give away all of their wealth" , but rather how monies are managed and used. I don't believe God had in mind that the rich should get richer and the poor, more poor. What are the profits of our oil companies, billions. What did Christ have to say about the rich man who built more 'store houses' to store more profits?  Most of the rhetoric is and has been on why and what we 'can't' do. Both Christianity and the secular world use the same words/reasons on why we can't do this or that. We all know there are problems. What is the solution? 

>Greed is not a character trait only of Europeans.<

 By the way, I was simply making an observation....." many nations were formed this way. "

[CoAspen]

To go one step, more realistic, further....is/should Christianity stop just saying  'when the Lord comes' as a solution and actually think about real world solutions? Or should we just shake our heads sadly and pray for more people to people to be converted? Religious piety does not feed or solve issues.

[JoeMo]

48 minutes ago, CoAspen said:

What is the solution? 

I have no idea.  It's a complicated matter.  I tend to leave towards rudywoof's suggested solution, but - as 8thdaypriest suggested, - there are problems with that approach, too.  In my opinion, if people who are here illegally are arrested for any felony crime, they should be immediately deported.  Putting them in our jails still depletes our resources.  Those who are here illegally but holding legitimate productive jobs should be given a path to citizenship.  I think we need to actively enforce our existing immigration laws, including keeping future illegals out.  It doesn't take much for an Islamic terrorist to disguise him/herself as a Mexican.  I also think we ought to eliminate the "lottery" system for immigration to the U.S.

I'm old and retired; and I will be relying on Social Security for about 50% of my retirement income.  I don't want to see that go away because we freely give it to people who  are here illegally and have never put a cent into the program. If that sounds selfish, as Steve Martin used to say, EXCUSE ME!!

 I'm already old; so SS insolvency won't impact me as much as it will impact our kids and grandkids.

[CoAspen]

Maybe we need to think outside the box. What is the cause of these large or small immigrations? It is not only happening here in this country but also to countries of Europe. Instead of treating just the effect, why not go after the causes?  

[LifeHiscost]

5 hours ago, CoAspen said:

So what is your solution?

Strive to hasten the coming of Jesus. I understand He has a new earth.

4 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matthew 24

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Gerr]

 

 

"Isn't it ironic....a country formed by taking the lands away from the inhabitants, then goes on to wanting to build walls to keep out other 'illegals'! it merely confirms the old adage, "to the victors goes the spoils." Of course the 'settlers' of NA were not the first to use this method of taking what belonged to others, many nation"

"We are a rich nation with loads of disposable income. What are the amounts of monies spent on sports and other types of entertainment? What about the monies spent on advertising of products trying to sell more products to make more money? What about the fact we have a for profit healthcare system that you can invest in to make more money? It's not about...."IF the "rich" give away all of their wealth" , but rather how monies are managed and used. I don't believe God had in mind that the rich should get richer and the poor, more poor. What are the profits of our oil companies, billions. What did Christ have to say about the rich man who built more 'store houses' to store more profits?  Most of the rhetoric is and has been on why and what we 'can't' do. Both Christianity and the secular world use the same words/reasons on why we can't do this or that. We all know there are problems. What is the solution? "

Are you for open borders or unlimited immigration?  If so, are you prepared to absorb 20 million Filipinos, maybe 50 million Indians, half of Venezuelans and Hondurans?

 

 

[CoAspen]

As a physician, I would imagine that part of your treatment was prevention. We can't have permanant solutions to the issue if we don;t find ways of prevention. That is the question! Maybe you missed this...".Maybe we need to think outside the box. What is the cause of these large or small immigrations? It is not only happening here in this country but also to countries of Europe. Instead of treating just the effect, why not go after the causes?"  

The question..."Are you for open borders or unlimited immigration? ", is one that ignores the issue of why.

[8thdaypriest]

25 minutes ago, CoAspen said:

Instead of treating just the effect, why not go after the causes?"

The founders of Jamestown, left England because of religious persecution.  There's a "cause" for you.   Should they have been forced to stay in England?   My (11 generations back) grandmother was one of them. 

People migrate for many reasons.  Disease outbreaks, droughts, poverty, religious wars, religious persecution, drug wars, gang violence, etc. etc. etc.   Yes.  The USA can try to help struggling nations.  But so much of the time, our "help" is taken by corrupt politicians, and does not go to "the problem".   We are starting to realize that often, we cannot really "help", because we would need to change their culture.  Pouring money doesn't really "solve" the problems. 

The USA built a dam to supply water for poverty stricken farmers in Afghanistan.  Within a few years, those tribes were growing poppies on their now watered land - because they could get more money for the poppies than for vegetables.    They used the money to escalate religious wars.   So the USA didn't really "help" or solve any problem.  We just made things worse. 

The "solution" is not always to take money from Joe, to give it to Jim. 

The Children of Israel fled Egypt because of slavery oppression, and then took over the Land of Canaan - driving out most of the inhabitants.  Was that wrong? 

[8thdaypriest]

18 hours ago, JoeMo said:

if people who are here illegally are arrested for any felony crime, they should be immediately deported

They should serve their sentence - all of it - first.  If deported immediately, they would just come immediately - back in.

[8thdaypriest]

45 minutes ago, CoAspen said:

We can't have permanent solutions to the issue if we don't find ways of prevention.

We will NEVER have permanent solutions!  Not until the earth is made new.  The indwelling spirit of Christ is THE only permanent solution.  Until that is the universal condition - the world will have no "permanent solution".  One "problem" will be replaced by another and another and another.  Doesn't mean we should not at least try to "help".  Yes.  But we should not expect any "permanent solutions" for folks in this world.

[8thdaypriest]

25 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

There are Canadians who would also like to build a wall for our border with the US. It would not accomplish the intended goal 100% but it would certainly help. And yet, the people coming into Canada are doing so, sometimes at the risk of life and limb, they have nowhere to go. Do we just not help them and leave them to die?  I dont get how Trump can just go to the homes of innocent people and families and break them up and give them the boot, even if they have been contributing to the good of society for years. But then, that leaves a lot of people who are too weak to work and can no longer produce. I guess those are the ones to target?

Totally misleading. 

[8thdaypriest]

WHAT IF there was a terrible disease South of the border, and immigrants would bring it into the USA?  Would we THEN try to keep them out?   Or test everyone entering, to make sure that person was not a carrier?   If we let everyone in - seeking treatment - our hospital system would quickly be overwhelmed.  

I think most citizens and even people already immigrated without papers, would be in favor of closing the border TIGHT. 

So what type of problem (or types of problems) would justify limits on immigration? 

need for more money for welfare/food stamps,  need for more social services,  need for more teachers, need for more hospitals, need for more law enforcement officers,  possible terrorists entering,  competition for employment,  overcrowding,  overuse of resources,  etc. etc.

And what reasons would justify allowing more immigration?  

unlimited family unification,  enrich our culture,  rescue from violence or oppression,  need for workers in certain industries,  poverty in country of origin

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

WHAT IF there was a terrible disease South of the border, and immigrants would bring it into the USA?  Would we THEN try to keep them out?   Or test everyone entering, to make sure that person was not a carrier?   If we let everyone in - seeking treatment - our hospital system would quickly be overwhelmed.  

There is a terrible disease south of the border and many other places outside our borders. Many immigrants are bringing in TB and often it is multi-drug/extensively drug resistant (MDR-/XDR-TB).Diseases don't get a lot more nasty than TB. And we do not even vaccinate for it here in the US. There is a vaccine used in other countries with a success rate of about 80%. Problem with it is that once you are vaccinated, you can never get skin tested again as you will show up positive. 

Our hospitals are already overwhelmed. In some border cities with a population approx 33% illegal, where do you think they go for medical treatment? You got it, … the ER and then get admitted. And they do not pay because you can't get blood from a turnip. Hospitals and doctors often write off as much as 1/3 of their bills. But they must meet the bottom line, so now who pays? Citizens do. And if they own a home or are employed but have no insurance thanks to the previous regimes healthcare nightmare, your home will have liens put on it or your wages garnished, if you have any wages after being stuck in a less than 28 hr week job because your employer doesn't have to offer health care for part timers! It is interesting how hospitals calculate charges for their services.

[8thdaypriest]

The migration is another "gold rush".   The US economy is the "gold".   Caravan migrants have been coached to plead asylum, to say they are in imminent danger from gang violence (whether or not such is true).    For most such is NOT TRUE.    To allow them entry, is to reward them for lying.

Should we "help" the country of origin?  If local, state, and fed governments cannot "solve" gang violence in large US cities, what makes us think we can "solve" gang violence in Honduras or El Salvador, to prevent more migration?  

Gang violence is NOT the primary problem.  The desire for more money and a "better life" is the magnet. 

Awhile back, the US gov tried putting such migrants onto a large plane to be flown back to their country of origin in Central America.  That country REFUSED to take them back.  No surprise.  Why overburden their own services (such as they are)?  Mexico has refused to accept them.  No surprise?  So what to do with them??

Tell their countries of origin, "Take them back, or no aid from the USA".  A bride to be sure, but cheaper than the amount we spend - through services etc. for the entered migrants.

They KEY is to prevent further waves if illegal migrants.  How do we do that??

Build the wall, and refuse ALL further migration - except that done through established legal channels.  PERIOD

That would send the message. 

Maybe then we could give legal status to those already here.   To give them legal status BEFORE securing the border, flashes the message - EASY ENTRY - to all those wanting to enter. 

Those who cry, SYMPATHY - SYMPATHY - SYMPATHY, are not just soft hearted.  They are soft headed.  Allowing the migrants permanent entry HURTS more people - including children and youth - than it helps.