Re: Migrants

[JoeMo]

As the posts in this thread are demonstrating, it's complicated.

I saw a thing on the news about an Indian reservation that straddles the Mexican border with Arizona.  The reservation has been there as long as tribal memory goes back.  When the U.S. and Mexico arbitrarily set the border in the early 1900's, the border crossed the reservation.  With a wall, at the border, it would be much more difficult for the native people to cross the reservation. 

If the solution is "make an exception in the law", I'm sure many other groups would try to claim and "exception"; with some of them succeeding. Like I said, it's complicated.

[CoAspen]

"We are not going to solve the problem until Christ comes." How long has that been preached? WE can point out the failures of previous 'methods', but does that mean we just give up! We study why the methods fail, we introduce corective measures and we plan better. We keep trying, not through up our hands. Christianity fails quite often and even more as of late because it has focused on doing thing 'my' way. Governments are very adept at that method as well. It doesn't work. Think outside the box!! 

[CoAspen]

Quote

The Children of Israel fled Egypt because of slavery oppression, and then took over the Land of Canaan - driving out most of the inhabitants.  Was that wrong? 

•  

In fact they slaughtered the inhabitants! They acted in a manner that all heathen nations would, in the name of their God just like the heathen did. Yes, it was wrong! No thinking outside the box, just the same old methods. I don't believe that was Gods plane at all!!

A good illustration of why we can't seem to solve issues, such as immigration, along with many others.

[CoAspen]

I would not serve or even believe in a God or Gods if I thought some of what is being said here is what that God wanted His people to do. Atheism seems much more believable. Evolution, survival of the fittest certainly seems the best answer as to why we are here. But....I don't believe that is what people really feel. Politics has so polluted this issue that we unknowingly follow the pied piper of what ever political philosophy seems to most closely fit our desires. 

Quote

Those who cry, SYMPATHY - SYMPATHY - SYMPATHY, are not just soft hearted.  They are soft headed.  

I know of a person who is unbelievably soft hearted. Yeah, He's probably soft headed as well!

[CoAspen]

Lets just give up on solutions, keep on smoking and spend billions on trying to cure while we keep smoking! Very sound thinking. Give up, we tried everything, it didn't work! Maybe innuendo about peoples motives and desires, may crying 'O whoa is us', maybe 'what ifs' out the wazoo, maybe, maybe...it will be doom for us all, etc, etc will work! Nope, same issue still staring us in the face!

People, its time to pick up the britches and try again and again and again....God did give us a brain, lets not waste it!!! Come on, lets have some new and different thinking!

[B/W Photodude]

43 minutes ago, CoAspen said:

I would not serve or even believe in a God or Gods if I thought some of what is being said here is what that God wanted His people to do.

Weird. But when I read my Bible there are very specific instructions from God to kill everyone including children. Of course, I could just sit back and think the Bible was wrong and doesn't need to be believed. And what is being said here is mild compared to the Bible.

[B/W Photodude]

Mexico and many other countries have much stricter immigration laws than the US. Much harder for an American to immigrate to Mexico than the other way around.

If the US enforced it's immigration laws and stopped using up it's resources on illegal immigrant care (that isn't even available to citizens), we would be in a much better position to help other countries. But the current wasting of resources is a result of the previous regimes efforts to make America pay for perceived injustices in the past. Being a great nation is a crime to globalists.

You will find specific Biblical references to respecting government which the Mexican government does not do for the US and believes they have the right to send in people who will plunder American resources. 

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

until someone says the word oil.

This is old news.  The U.S. is currently the largest producer of oil and natural gas in the world.  We have more than we use; so we're now exporting it at prices that OPEC can barely match.

[CoAspen]

Quote

But when I read my Bible there are very specific instructions from God to kill everyone including children. 

Exactly! The same as all other heathen nations, no difference!

I believe in a contextual setting. Considering everything that was going on around the Israelites, why would they not believe God wanted them to do evil? After all God was responsible for everything in their lives including the weather. They were still slaves to the thinking of those they had excaped from. The were afraid of their God also. So why would Christ come to change in the minds of the people? Surely if they God they were being taught about was true, why would Christ try so mightily to depict the OT God as being wrongly viewed and say the He really loved them? The only difference between the OT and the NT God, was in how humans portrayed him. 

Back to topic! Waiting for some real 'out of box' thinking.

[B/W Photodude]

6 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

And of course, America never plunders anyoneès resources do they...until someone says the word oil. Immigration to the US is also big business for some people.The Wall will be big business too

People take wherever they can. They will even take (plunder) the resources of their own fellow citizens. Some parts of this country suffered terribly as big corporations plundered the wealth of the local people and the rest of the nation "ate the spoils" of this plundering. Often individuals will plunder family wealth for themselves and even buy/sell their family members if they can get something of value and this even happens in SDA families. Amazing.

I seriously need to buy a chin guard as one of these days watching what people will do to each other is going to cause my mouth to drop open so far I will injure myself!

5 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

This was an inappropriate comment. I will apologize for this.

Not really inappropriate as the topic is about plundering the wealth of nations which is part of what the immigration problem is.

[B/W Photodude]

2 hours ago, CoAspen said:

Considering everything that was going on around the Israelites, why would they not believe God wanted them to do evil?

These instructions were passed on from Moses who talked face to face with God. He is also called the meekest man that ever lived (meek=kind&gentle). He also now lives in heaven. So, yeah, I will take the word of Scripture over doubters. Not much you can do when the plain word of scripture gets twisted. Contextualizing scripture just means you get to believe whatever you want to believe it says.

[B/W Photodude]

6 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

lol, whatever will you do when you start to also look at yourself.

There is a story in the OT regarding one of the other neighboring nations to Israel who were amazed at the wickedness of Israel, allegedly "God's people." Sometimes behavior goes above and beyond the usual sinfulness that we all have to come before God about. In a more modern example, if someone was molesting the children of the church, the other "pure" people would be similarly amazed even though privately they also may struggle with their own secret sins that they have to face God about everyday. There is a level of evil that even the wicked recognize as evil. This is part of the reason that when the previously mentioned molester gets to prison, it is going to be a hard life for that individual.

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, CoAspen said:

"We are not going to solve the problem until Christ comes." How long has that been preached? WE can point out the failures of previous 'methods', but does that mean we just give up! We study why the methods fail, we introduce corective measures and we plan better. We keep trying, not through up our hands. Christianity fails quite often and even more as of late because it has focused on doing thing 'my' way. Governments are very adept at that method as well. It doesn't work. Think outside the box!! 

This seems VERY important to you CoAspen.  You must have prayed and prayed about it.  What solutions have YOU come up with?

[8thdaypriest]

15 hours ago, CoAspen said:

People, its time to pick up the britches and try again and again and again....God did give us a brain, lets not waste it!!! Come on, lets have some new and different thinking!

Mr self-righteous, scolding us.   Even Jesus cannot save everyone.   Because He allows them free choice. 

The Canaanite peoples were sacrificing children to their gods.  When Israel became so corrupt that they followed suit, God withdrew His protection and allows the Babylonians to destroy Jerusalem and take captive more of her people.  The radical Muslims are sacrificing their own children (and others children) to their "god".  I believe the LORD will very soon allow their destruction.   

[CoAspen]

 

Quote

Mr self-righteous, scolding us.  

Not sure how you arrived at that or is it a deflection. I keep asking for outside box thinking. Since when is that scolding? Asking for peoples ideas/suggestions that are new , different or improved on the old ways is an open-ended question. I am not going to steer answers into any direction, just want to hear some new ways  other than the old answers that have not worked.

[CoAspen]

Quote

These instructions were passed on from Moses who talked face to face with God.

What instructions are you talking about? The big 10 or that in all their battles they should wipe those people off the earth? Just want to be sure we are on the same page. Are you suggesting that the God of Isreal was no different than what the other nations claimed of their God/s?

This is probably a subject for a different thread as it is not what the original question is all about. So I will not be taking it any further and you may feel free to not answer my question regarding which 'instructions' are God given. The OT is a very complex/historical history and not always easy to explain when trying to correlate it to Christs teachings and view of God.

[Gerr]

On 5/1/2018 at 12:29 PM, CoAspen said:

As a physician, I would imagine that part of your treatment was prevention. We can't have permanant solutions to the issue if we don;t find ways of prevention. That is the question! Maybe you missed this...".Maybe we need to think outside the box. What is the cause of these large or small immigrations? It is not only happening here in this country but also to countries of Europe. Instead of treating just the effect, why not go after the causes?"  

The question..."Are you for open borders or unlimited immigration? ", is one that ignores the issue of why.

What prompts people to move away from their own country is nothing mysterious:  poverty, religious or political persecution, crime gone out of hand, little prospect for improving one's lot.

Think outside the box now and tell us how you are going to change  the conditions in those countries that cause their citizens to migrate.

[bonnie]

The immigrants of today bear little resemblance to the immigrants (legal or illegal) of a couple of decades ago.  Previously immigrants did not immigrate to enforce the culture they left behind in their new country.  They learned english and adapted to a new way of life.  They became American citizens in every sense of the word.  They didn't know they could demand and receive.

We have a man locally that immigrated 15-20 years ago. He has been interviewed on TV programs.  He knew little english, unskilled and did not have family in this country to help him.  Within two weeks of arriving he had three jobs.  When he was interviewed he was overjoyed that he actually had three jobs. Rather than complaining that he had to work three jobs to survive he could not believe his good fortune in America.  American born citizens feel almost persecuted if they find the need to hold a full time and part-time. This man was praising God because he had three jobs.  He is now on his way to being an extremely wealthy man.

Those that believe "thinking outside the box" is the answer perhaps they could take a lesson from those that already do.

I was privileged to be contacted by a woman for help that does just that.  Without government aid or afflation, she has developed a network of women that do a lot of sewing like myself.  All volunteer and all needed items donated. She has helped the women of Haiti to feed their families. Orphanages cannot use disposable diapers due to lack of sanitation facilities, so babies are left without and laying in their own waste in their cribs. She collects used sewing machines and takes them to Haiti. Treadle machines are provided to area's where there isn't any electricity, modern machines are used where they have access. What I sell for 45.00 here, the Haitian women get 2-3.00 from the orphanages.  They are thrilled to help feed their families. It has grown by leaps and bounds and now enough donations allow them to continue that and to produce items for tourists. A new sewing center has been built with more to come. All donations. They do not want to leave their homes, they just want to feed their families. With such a corrupt government she is hands on all the way, making sure all items reach the intended recipients.

For those that think it is simply "thinking outside the box" how about taking a page from this ladies book and doing similar here.   The lady did not complain or write a check. She is hands on. Not always convenient, but she does not demand others do what she doesn't want to do.

For those complaining that others are not doing enough, how many quilts have you made for the homeless immigrants?  How many hats, coats, and mittens for cold immigrant children in the winter?  The list of possibilities "outside the box" is endless.  How much is accomplished by those that would chastise others for their unchristian lack?

 

[B/W Photodude]

On 5/1/2018 at 7:36 PM, CoAspen said:

People, its time to pick up the britches and try again and again and again....

8 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Mr self-righteous, scolding us.  

There was a scene in the movie, "An Officer and a Gentleman", where Mayo was helping one of the female members of the group get thru the obstacle course. He was screaming at her, and using some pretty harsh language, but she got over the obstacles and no doubt per this story would have failed if not for Mayo being there pushing her to succeed. Sometimes scoldings are the difference between success and failure. Can't always be warm fuzzies. Ask the snowflakes, hanging out in their saferooms! Does it get any weirder, adult college students who can't consider an opposing opinion?! (Last I heard they were bringing in puppies for them to play with to calm down!)

[CoAspen]

Quote

I was privileged to be contacted by a woman for help that does just that.  Without government aid or afflation, she has developed a network of women that do a lot of sewing like myself.  All volunteer and all needed items donated. She has helped the women of Haiti to feed their families. Orphanages cannot use disposable diapers due to lack of sanitation facilities, so babies are left without and laying in their own waste in their cribs. She collects used sewing machines and takes them to Haiti. Treadle machines are provided to area's where there isn't any electricity, modern machines are used where they have access. What I sell for 45.00 here, the Haitian women get 2-3.00 from the orphanages.  They are thrilled to help feed their families. It has grown by leaps and bounds and now enough donations allow them to continue that and to produce items for tourists. A new sewing center has been built with more to come. All donations. They do not want to leave their homes, they just want to feed their families. With such a corrupt government she is hands on all the way, making sure all items reach the intended recipients.

Ahhh...an example of 'outside the box thinking', awesome!!  Thanks! The first person to give an example!

Quote

For those complaining that others are not doing enough, how many quilts have you made for the homeless immigrants?  How many hats, coats, and mittens for cold immigrant children in the winter?  The list of possibilities "outside the box" is endless.  How much is accomplished by those that would chastise others for their unchristian lack?

I have not seen anything being posted is this forum chastiseing others, just asking the question as too possible solutions. I have some knowledge of things that are ongoing that could be considered 'outside the box'.  

[bonnie]

We are a rich nation with loads of disposable income. What are the amounts of monies spent on sports and other types of entertainment? What about the monies spent on advertising of products trying to sell more products to make more money? What about the fact we have a for profit healthcare system that you can invest in to make more money? It's not about...."IF the "rich" give away all of their wealth" , but rather how monies are managed and used. I don't believe God had in mind that the rich should get richer and the poor, more poor. What are the profits of our oil companies, billions. What did Christ have to say about the rich man who built more 'store houses' to store more profits?  Most of the rhetoric is and has been on why and what we 'can't' do. Both Christianity and the secular world use the same words/reasons on why we can't do this orthat. We all know there are problems. What is the solution? 

But the above is none of your business or that of anyone else.  How someone spends their wealth is a personal decision. Of course there is advertising in an attempt to sell more of what a company or individual makes.  Very few people operate a business without the intent of maximizing profits.

What you do (or I) as an individual is the only thing we have control over.   The fact that many, many people have more money than I do does not entitle me to one dime of it. As you and others have pointed out many times this is not a christian nation, nor founded on christian principals. As a secular nation it is the responsibility to put American citizens and their welfare first.  It is also the responsibility of immigrants to come here with the intent of becoming functioning, independent citizens of this country.  Abide by our laws and not demand this country change to accommodate the customs and laws they left behind.  Learn english so they can be employable.  If they can work and not learn the language and take care of themselves, Fine. 

The solution to demanding others give more of their finances is really pointless.

How much of your time and finances do you give on a weekly basis to help ease the plight of immigrants or anyone in need?  That is really the only question you will ever be required to answer or account for.  I don't believe demanding a secular government take more from those they perceive to have too much is going to be a very satisfactory answer for anyone. 

How many here do the best they can with what they have to help others, immigrants or anyone in need?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

6 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

What prompts people to move away from their own country is nothing mysterious:  poverty, religious or political persecution, crime gone out of hand, little prospect for improving one's lot.

Think outside the box now and tell us how you are going to change  the conditions in those countries that cause their citizens to migrate.

If "we" can't change the "conditions" in our OWN country, what makes you think we could change them in another country, so its citizens would not want to leave?

[8thdaypriest]

Are we supposed to now give a LIST of all the donations we have made towards the care of poor people that live outside our country? 

Not likely. 

I have given a lot to "Water for Life".  They drill wells for poor villages, so the women don't have to walk and carry water jars, such distances. 

From what I've heard, that helps - at least until warlords come to take over the wells, and charge for their use. 

[bonnie]

8thday, If your question is referring to what I said , I am sorry you took it that way.  I really was not expecting anyone to list what they have done. It isnt any of my business.  Each one has only to account for what they do and not to another mortal.  What kind of impact could be seen if those complaining about others did the best they could with what they have?  

[JoeMo]

On 5/1/2018 at 6:11 PM, B/W Photodude said:

But when I read my Bible there are very specific instructions from God to kill everyone including children.

I agree.  IMHO,  although on the surface it sound horrible, God had a very specific justification for this command.  All of these nations, under the spiritual leadership of other gods, banded together to systematically destroy the chosen people of Jehovah - Israel.  The Hebrew spies say nephilim in the land - the same human-angel hybrid species that plagued the antedeluvian world.  These mutants, being superior in size and strength to the Israelites (again - God's chosen people) would have eventually wiped out God's chosen people.  Notice that God went out before the Israelites to fight for them just about every time God told them to fight the enemy.  They needed God's help to defeat them. 

I know this view runs contrary to our 21st century sensitivities; but we don't think like God thinks; and His ways are not our ways.  There is a time coming in our future where God will again strike out in His strange act to totally destroy the unrepentant majority in order to save the small remnant of genetic and spiritual Israelites still faithful to Him..