The Personhood of the Godhead

[Gregory Matthews]

The following is taken from a chapter in the book as  referenced below:

Frank M. Hasel. "The Holy Spirit: His Divinity and Personality,"  Biblical and Theological studies on the Trinity. Avondale Academic Press, 2014, pages 170 & 141.

While this chapter is addressing the Holy Spirit, I believe that what I have coped and posted here will be helpful in providing one understanding of how the word "person," when applied to God is understood.

So, please open up the attached file.

NOTE:  There are two (2) pages to the attached file.

 

CCF08162018.pdf

[Gustave]

19 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The following is taken from a chapter in the book as  referenced below:

Frank M. Hasel. "The Holy Spirit: His Divinity and Personality,"  Biblical and Theological studies on the Trinity. Avondale Academic Press, 2014, pages 170 & 141.

While this chapter is addressing the Holy Spirit, I believe that what I have coped and posted here will be helpful in providing one understanding of how the word "person," when applied to God is understood.

So, please open up the attached file.

NOTE:  There are two (2) pages to the attached file.

 

CCF08162018.pdf

Is Frank M. Hasel saying that he agrees that:

Or is Frank saying that the historic position is that "Person" was used in an allegorical sense ( as in not to be taken literally ) therefore that's the SDA understanding of the Trinity  - IS what that section of his book identifies? 

If this is the case WHY didn't they have FRANK hold the Trinity Symposium? 

[Gustave]

Frank has repudiated the Trinity Symposium the SDA's in California recently put on - What has the SDA General Conference said about this matter? Have they said what Trinity is the Trinity of the SDA Church? 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave:  As far as what Frank Hasel meant, one should probably ask him.  I will not attempt to respond.

As to the Trinitiy Symposium,  probably most, if not all, of the people reading these posts are confused as to what you are meaning by your term "Trinity Symposium."

 I can assume that you do not mean a current symposium being conducted in San Antonioo, Texas, that is designed to prepare students to take the SAT test.

I might have thought that you cited a 1998 conference held in New York City, that has resulted in publication of a book.

But, now that you have related it to a SDA Conference in California, I have to say that I have no idea as to what you are talking about.  Please tell us more about that Conference to include where I can find out information about it.  

[Gregory Matthews]

O.K.  I am finding references to what Gustave cited:  [It should probably be noted that Gustave cited a source that I had posted.      ]

https://www.centralcaliforniaadventist.com/godhead

The one above contains actual presentations at the Conference to include one made by Frank M. Hasel.

http://www.atsjats.org/publication/view/240

The above is a scholarly article on the Trinitarian views of early Adventists.

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/trinity/moon/moon-trinity1.htm

The above is Part 1 of a series of articles on the Trinity and early Adventist views.  It contains a link to Part 2.

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/trinity/moon/moon-trinity2.htm

The above is Part 2 and focuses on Ellen White and the Trinity in early Adventism.

 

Gustave:  Thank you for challenging my thinking, even to citing something that I had posted and forgotten.  

By the way, I am well aware that what I have posted above will give you some support for what you have said about EGW and Adventism.   That does not bother me.  I am more interested in truth than in defended error.  I have said from the beginning that EGW, along with others, were in error in their thinking on the Trinity, at least in some of their thinking.

I have never denied that EGW and others, believed that God had some body parts, such as arms and legs.  What I have soundly rejected was the idea that this belief included God having digestive system parts.  That is garbage.

Yes, as I have posted, EGW, and others, likely did not understand the extent to which the Bible had presented God in terms that could be understood by humans rather than in a reality that was outside of human understanding.

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

On some more personal notes:

I appreciate the conversation that we are having here in this forum.  Early on I had wondered who he might be.  The Roman Catholic church has three (3) levels of clerics, or as they might say, those who receive  Holy Orders.   These are Bishops, Priests and Deacons.  I sometimes   wondered if Gustave might be a Deacon.  Well, he has explained himself as an Apologist.  These are very well trained people within the Catholic Church who defend the Church against attacks and errors in understanding by other people.  In addition to being very well trained, they have available to them a wealth of source material to use in responding to people.  Frankly, the SDA Church  might do well to have such trained people.

 I appreciate Gustave, in part because I have seen honesty and integrity in him and  his posts.  No, we do not agree in many areas, probably.  We probably will not come to an agreement if everything.  But, if we can come to a better, more accurate understanding as to where we each are, we will have accomplished something of value.  Just as others may not understand some things well about SDAs, so also we may not understand well some aspects of the Roman Catholic religion that Gustave represents.  But, my purpose is not  to convert him to Adventism.  God converts.  God leads in spiritual nurture.  God leads all of us, to include both SDAs and Catholics.

In the challenges that  Gustave has brought to us, he has forced us to better examine the basis for what we believe.

That is good.

 

[Gustave]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

O.K.  I am finding references to what Gustave cited:  [It should probably be noted that Gustave cited a source that I had posted.      ]

https://www.centralcaliforniaadventist.com/godhead

The one above contains actual presentations at the Conference to include one made by Frank M. Hasel.

http://www.atsjats.org/publication/view/240

The above is a scholarly article on the Trinitarian views of early Adventists.

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/trinity/moon/moon-trinity1.htm

The above is Part 1 of a series of articles on the Trinity and early Adventist views.  It contains a link to Part 2.

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/trinity/moon/moon-trinity2.htm

The above is Part 2 and focuses on Ellen White and the Trinity in early Adventism.

 

Gustave:  Thank you for challenging my thinking, even to citing something that I had posted and forgotten.  

By the way, I am well aware that what I have posted above will give you some support for what you have said about EGW and Adventism.   That does not bother me.  I am more interested in truth than in defended error.  I have said from the beginning that EGW, along with others, were in error in their thinking on the Trinity, at least in some of their thinking.

I have never denied that EGW and others, believed that God had some body parts, such as arms and legs.  What I have soundly rejected was the idea that this belief included God having digestive system parts.  That is garbage.

Yes, as I have posted, EGW, and others, likely did not understand the extent to which the Bible had presented God in terms that could be understood by humans rather than in a reality that was outside of human understanding.

 

 

 

I don't want to use that information to attack - I can accept your reasonable explanation that the early members of the SDA Church made some mistakes as it pertains to the Trinity and subsequently built on those errors - however now the Church is wrestling with the issue and gradually moving to more of a historic or Orthodox position. If that's the case it wouldn't do anyone any good to erect a straw man only to tear it down and I don't want to be know for that.

In my understanding the way that the "distinctive" SDA Doctrines were established was that the Pioneers or other well thought of people known by the Pioneers asserted ideas or affirmations about specific Doctrines & ultimately, the Doctrines that were retained received a confirmation of accuracy via The Spirit Of Prophecy ( Ellen would have a vision about it ). Thus it could be said Ellen didn't create any of the distinctive SDA Doctrines - she only confirmed them or had a vision that would equate to an approval.

In the case of the Personality of God Doctrine of the Pioneers what I did was collect each article, tract in which the phrase "Personality of God" appeared in the periodicals. Within those articles were other phrases common to the Doctrine ( such as "without body and parts" / "God is a Person and heaven is a place", etc. ). After reviewing everything I reasonably concluded the early SDA's were Anthropomorphite in theology and that their abhorrence with the Christian Creeds was simply that God couldn't be a Substance or Essence without body or parts - because  God was ONE PERSON that had an actual PERSONALITY. I.E. God couldn't be everywhere because heaven is a place with a throne and God has an actual body and He is sitting on that throne.

The above combined with the repeated affirmation that Christ could have failed, sinned and eternally cease to exist was not compatible with the Doctrine of the Trinity ( at least as I understand it to be ).

If it's agreed that these two things affirmed in SDA publications were simply wrong it would be foolish for me argue against it for the sake of magnifying the errors.

You're a credit to your denomination Gregory.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Me a credit to the SDA denomination:  You are gracious.   I simply call it as I see it.  If I see the  denomination as wrong, I will say so.  I and   we as a denomination have nothing to gain by a refusal to admit our human error.  We are not perfect.

We can be confusing at times.  That is often our fault.

The thinking that Christ could have sinned, as I understand it, was that Jesus in  his human nature could have sinned.  It was not that Jesus in His God nature could have sinned.  God can not sin.

As to the development of SDA doctrine:  I commend you for picking up on the idea that it developed first from Bible study.  That is a point that is often missed.   The so-called "Sabbath-Conferences: support the idea that SDA doctrine came from Bible Study.  You are correct that on some points of doctrine EGW did state that she had recieved a confirmation vision.  You may give that more significance than do I.  That did not always happen.  In addition, I will suggest that SDA acceptance was based upon the understood Biblical teaching rather than on a vision.

As to my personal position:

*  I agree that there are elements of this doctrine that are critical.  One such critical element is that Christ our Saviour was fully God and fully human.

*  I do not fully understand the nature of God.  Aspects of the Trinitiy lie outside of my human experience.  Therefore, notwithstanding what I have stated just above, there are aspects okf the Trinity with which I can not  fully explain and/or debate.

*  I do believe, as EGW stated, that there is a point where it is not helpful to debate points of doctrine that are not explained in Scripture in a explicit, clear manner.  My eplaination may actually be no better than that of the person with whom I am debating.

*  God, in the person of the Holy Spirit, is ultimately responsive for the spiritual nurture of both you and I.   Fhen God decides that eithe you or I need  further enlightenment on a doctrinal issue, God will see that it takes place.

*  As you know how to contqct me privately, I will remain available to you, either publicly in this forum  (continue on), or for private discussions.

*  In many ways  I beleive that the discussions that you have engendered in this forum have been helpful of others reading them.

*  I am neither a scholar or an academic in this area.  Although, I have formally taught other clergy (non-SDA) in an academic setting outside of the SDA Church.  (I taught clergy how to work effectively as Army chaplains in a formal academic setting--that typically lasted for three (3) months, with some, on a few occasions who were there for six (6) months.)  It is from this perspective that my ideas as an educator sometimes come through in my posts.

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 6/26/2018 at 6:03 AM, TrevorL said:

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence.  … The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. … So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity."

I do believe some things stated in the Nicene Creed.

I believe:  "The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten."

I believe:  "The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten."

I believe:  "The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding" from.  

I don't see how that makes a Trinity of THREE BEINGS.

The "river of life" proceeds from the throne of the Father and the Son.   That river symbolizes the way the Spirit has it's source in the Father and Son, and flows out from them.   That picture does not present the Spirit as a third person, or personal being.   This picture presents the Spirit as the life giving presence, and power - OF - the Father and His Son. 

There is NO COMMAND - in Scripture - to worship the Holy Spirit, no command to thank the Spirit, or sing to the Spirit, or serve the Spirit, or pray to the Spirit.   

We are commanded to pray to the Father, ASKING FOR His Spirit.  When we receive that Spirit, we THANK the Father for His gift.  

Why would we think that the Spirit is here with us, while the Father is back there - up in Heaven - sitting on His throne?   The Father is omnipresent.   

Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit.  That makes the Holy Spirit Jesus' Father!!   Which confirms my belief that the Holy Spirit is the omnipresence of God the Father.    

    Matthew 1:18 “she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.” 

Matthew 1:20 “. . . that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.”

   The Holy Spirit would then be the One who gave His only begotten Son” (Jn 3:16).  He is “the invisible God”, and Jesus is “the image of the invisible God”(Ephesians 1:15).  

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel is correct in stating that there is no explicit command in the Bible for people to  worship the Holy Spirit.  I do not challenge that.

I do find Romans 8:26 & 27 to be of interest.   Here the Holy Spirit is clearly presented as interceding for us before God.  

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Just now, Gregory Matthews said:

Rachel is correct in stating that there is no explicit command in the Bible for people to  worship the Holy Spirit.  I do not challenge that.

I do find Romans 8:26 & 27 to be of interest.   Here the Holy Spirit is clearly presented as interceding for us before God.  

 

 

The words "before God" are not in the verse.

        Romans 8:26 “Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.”  

        Romans 8:34 “Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.”

If Jesus Christ has become a "life giving spirit" (1Cor 15:45), then the Spirit interceding for (or with) us in Romans 8, could be the glorified Christ.  

There is only "one mediator BETWEEN" (1Tim 2:5).     

Romans 8:9 “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.”

        The “Spirit of God” passing through Christ glorified, has become also “the Spirit of Christ”. 

    Romans 8:11 “But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who (or which) dwells in you.”
        
        Who raised Jesus from death?  Answer: God the Father (Gal. 1:1).  The spirit OF God the Father dwells in us.  His Spirit comes to us - through Christ, and as Christ. 

Concerning the "with groanings which cannot be uttered" - WHY would a third divine person need to "intercede" with another divine person, if all three are part of the SAME being? 

That's like my right hand trying to pull my left hand away from something. 

 

Same goes for Jesus pleading with His Father, to somehow change His Father's mind.   He knows how much His Father loves us.   The Father sent Jesus to tell us how much He loves us.   The Father is NOT sitting there with a stern face, looking like He needs to be convinced.  BOTH are working to save us.  The Father is working THROUGH His Son.  

And If Jesus is interceding (on behalf of His Father) - pleading with us to change -  then I can certainly imagine Him "groaning" in pain.  That one I CAN believe.   But that goes to just who is pleading with whom.  I believe that the Father and Christ are PLEADING WITH US.   

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

6 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

In some ways she is correct; but I see her statement as potentially misleading to people. I dont know of any scripture that tells us WHO to worship and when. It essentially tells us to worship God, but we are given no explicit command to worship one over the other, say at church, or many other settings. People are not advised in scripture to only worship Jesus at church, or to only pray to The Father. All Deity can and should be worshipped, and I see the scriptures leaving it up to us as to WHO we worship, depending on what kind of situation we are involved in.
 

 

Revelation 5:13  “And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth . . . I heard saying, ‘Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!’”

"Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!’”  (Rev. 7:10)
     
        In the New Testament Scriptures, two divine beings are worshiped - the Father and His Son.

Christ prayed only to His Father, and never spoke to another divine being by name.  He instructed His disciples to pray to the Father, “in My name”(Matthew 6:10, John 15:16, John 16:23).

Ephesians 3:14,15  [Paul writing] “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ’ of Whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.”

Matthew 5:16  “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.”

    Romans 15:6   “ . . . that ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” KJV

    Galatians 1:4-5  [Christ] “who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.”

    Philippians  2:11  “... and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” 

Philippians 4:20  “Now to our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.”

“Our Father ... Thine is the kingdom” (Matthew 6:13). 

We are reconciled to the Father through the Son (Col 1:19-20).

Show me where the Holy Spirit is glorified.  

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

    Matthew 11:25  “At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.”

    John 11:41  “Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, ‘Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.’”

    Ephesians 5:20  “. . . giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ . . .” 
    
    Colossians 1:3  “We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,”

    Colossians 1:12  “. . . giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.”
      
    Colossians 3:17  “And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.” 
    
    Ephesians 1:3  “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.” 

    1 Peter 1:3  “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” 

Show me texts where the Holy Spirit is thanked or blessed.

[8thdaypriest]

PRAYER

    Matthew 6:6 “But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you” (NIV). 

    Luke 11:2 “So He said to them, ‘When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.’”

John 14:16 [Christ speaking] “And I will pray the Father”

    Note:  We pray in the Spirit, but are never instructed to pray to the Spirit.   

Can you quote a verse giving us an example of believers praying TO the Holy Spirit?  

[8thdaypriest]

25 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

In some ways she is correct; but I see her statement as potentially misleading to people. I dont know of any scripture that tells us WHO to worship and when. It essentially tells us to worship God, but we are given no explicit command to worship one over the other, say at church, or many other settings. People are not advised in scripture to only worship Jesus at church, or to only pray to The Father. All Deity can and should be worshipped, and I see the scriptures leaving it up to us as to WHO we worship, depending on what kind of situation we are involved in.

If "the Holy Spirit" is a THIRD divine being - then certainly 'He' would be worshipped,  but I can find no command to do such in the Scriptures, and I can find no example of believers doing such - offering worship to the Holy Spirit, and definitely no example of such worship offered to a THIRD divine being.  Kinda suggests there IS NO third divine being.  Only God our Father, and His Son.  

 John 4:23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. "

Matthew 23:9 [Christ speaking]  “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.”

Ephesians 4:6 “one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. "

God the Father - the "one God" and the "only true God" is the source of "all things",  (and the source of His Son - having "beget" Him).   

 

It's difficult to prove something ISN'T - by what ISN'T there.    But I try.  

Take the greetings of Paul for instance.   "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" - THIRTEEN TIMES.  This was Paul's standard greeting to open his letters.  What?  Paul just forgot to mention the Spirit?   Why would Paul do that, IF the Spirit is a THIRD divine being, who is working just as hard for our salvation?  

[8thdaypriest]

55 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

In some ways she is correct; but I see her statement as potentially misleading to people. I dont know of any scripture that tells us WHO to worship and when. It essentially tells us to worship God, but we are given no explicit command to worship one over the other, say at church, or many other settings. People are not advised in scripture to only worship Jesus at church, or to only pray to The Father. All Deity can and should be worshipped, and I see the scriptures leaving it up to us as to WHO we worship, depending on what kind of situation we are involved in.

If "God" is defined as "three divine beings" - then yes - one would be free to worship all three jointly, or any one of the three individually.  It just depends on how one defines "God".  

I define "God" as "the Father" (the original uncreated divine ONE).    Christ's divinity was inherited - therefore derived - from His Father.   

It reminds me of the evolutionist arguments.  

Fossils are dated by the layer in which they are found.   The layers are dated by what fossils they contain.   Does anyone besides me, see those arguments as circular.

[Gregory Matthews]

A personal statement:

During my life as a Federal chaplain, there were times when part of my duties included providing administrative support to the Catholic services and the priest who conducted them.  This support did differ in some respects from time to time.  In one period of time it involved a priest, not a part of the institution that I represented, who regularly conducted Mass.

I will give an example of one issue I discussed with him:  On occasion he was not able to conduct the Mass himself.  He would telephone his volunteers and ask them to provide a service that in Catholic theology was not a Mass, but could be conducted by lay people.  I discovered that they were asking a devout Baptist to present a talk!  NOT ACCEPTABLE.    I informed him, stated that I would take care of the Baptist, and it was up to him to educate his volunteers.

I probably should explain a bit:  Neither the Catholic volunteers nor the Catholic members attending the service were fully informed as to the religious beliefs of the  Baptist who spoke at their service.  However I was so informed.

Anyway, I would sometimes attend the Mass myself.  No, I did not ask to receive the elements, and the priest would not have given them to me if I had asked.  I simply believed that if I was to work with the Catholics, it was important for me to be personally informed as to what was going on and as to what they might need.

Well, as this is late Friday afternoon, in a few hours a special time to share with God will begin.  We welcome all to our services.  You do not have to be a SDA to attend.  So, Gustave, if you would like to join a SDA congregation in worshiping tomorrow, feel free to do so.  Yes, I say such with the knowledge SDA congregations differ and our services differ.  But, you already know that.  If you were to attend, you would be welcomed and no    idea would be attached to your attendance to suggest that you were thinking about converting to Adventism.  I simply extend a welcome invitation to you in the same spirit that I have been welcomed at a Roman Catholic Mass.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

In the post just above, I suggested that Gustave visit a SDA Congregation on that special day with God that begins in a few hours.  I now have a specific congregation to suggest to him that is in the area near where he lives.

The Green Lake SDA Church

6350 East Green Lake way North

Seattle, WA 98103

Ofc:  206-522-1330  

The senior pastor is John McLarty.  Attend at a time when John is preaching.

I can not say that I am up to his caliber.  But, I can say that if Gustave has appreciated me in any way, he will also appreciate John McLarty.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

The double X is gone.  I do that when I want to reserve a  specific spot and keep others from posting  in that spot.