Labor Union Supports Sabbath Observance

[Gregory Matthews]

I have not been informed by the objector as to what the objections were.  I do not know.

[phkrause]

58 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

(btw, GM's post to Narcah strikes me as being somewhat condescending...)

Not sure that I agree with you on this Pam, but I do agree with your reply about the pastor! I'd also add that if the pastor decided to do what the union guy wanted, I'd hope he would not agree to join the union!!

[Narcah]

Formal objection eh?  Most fascinating. ?

I mispelled “love [move] right to work” typing on a phone isn’t my forte. 

Been a menber of this forum since it’s inseption when the official Adventist forum was shut down. You can contact me username@gmail.com. 

I prefer not to speak for Ellen White, but I do know evangelism is needed everywhere, especially to unions.  Pastorial care for a union though?  Isn’t that the church’s “job?”

Yes I have heard of lock out. If memory serves me right it’s usually in response to negative union actions. 

My question to you Mr Matthews is: why are you so desperate to defend unions?  

You do realize that my views are precisely the same as our church’s legal arguments right?  “it is morally wrong to be a member of or pay dues to a labor organization.” Nottleson v. Smith, 643 F.3d 1461 (9th Cir. 1996).

Therefor, may I suggest you ask our religious liberty lawyers why they fight so hard to keep people from being forced to join a union.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Narcah, the following is an article in the Review that is worth considering:

http://archives.adventistreview.org/2003-1513/story1.html

You ask why I am desperate to defend unions.  I am not desperate to defend unions.  My question was raised in the context of a labor union that is  defending the right of a Sabbath keeper to remain true to his convictions.

In looking at the advice of Ellen White it is always best to look at the full context in which she wrote.  In her advice on labor unions she gives specific reasons for stating that we should not join.  My question is:  If one were to find a labor union in which her specific reasons did not apply, would her advice still apply.  As an example would her advice apply to this labor union that is supporting the right of a Sabbath keeper to remain true to his convictions.

The Review article that I have cited above is well worth considering.  It clearly states that the SDA Church does not make union membership a test of fellowship.   IOW, one can be a labor union member and a SDA in good standing.

As I understand it, there are countries in this world where it is practically impossible to find employment without joining a labor union.  What would EGW say in such circumstances.

The article that I cited above clearly brings up a U.S. issue in which a named racial group would be disadvantaged in finding employment if they  did not join a labor union.

By the way, I advocate so-called "Right to Work" laws.  I believe that union membership should be voluntary.  Are you aware of any labor union that operates in such a context?  I am.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Here is an issue that of which some here seem not to be aware of:

*   Our schools are graduating more people every year  who have prepared to be clergy, than the denomination is financially able to employ.

*  At the same time increasingly opportunities open up for SDA clergy to be employed in pastoral care positions outside of denominational employment.  These include hospital chaplaincies in non-SDA hospitals, military and prison chaplaincies.  In addition, business corporations are hiring people to fill pastoral care positions in their organizations.  These employees are paid by the agency that hires them.  There is no way that this denomination could ever pay the salary of those SDAs who are employed by these groups.

*  As SDA clergy step out into these organizations, opportunities open up for additional persons to be hired by the SDA Church.   Openings which would never be available if other clergy had not transferred to these positions outside of denominational employment.

*   Here in the U.S.  some labor unions have begun to look to supply pastoral care to their members.  This is not widespread.  But, it is an actual fact.  Of course, such a labor union will require that all of its employees be a union member.  That is just understood.  My question is: In such a case, if a labor union were to want to hire a SDA to provide pastoral care, would not EGW agree that we should provide such, to include that person becoming a member of that  labor union.  I believe that EGW would give her full fledged support to such.

NOTE:  In the interests of transparency,  I will say the following about myself:  I have never  been asked to be employed by a labor union to provide pastoral care to its members.  However, I, in another situation, developed such a relationship with the President of a labor union local that he personally sent members to me for pastoral care.  But, these were few and far         between.  A labor union that hired a person to provide pastoral care would expect that person to be working in that position full time, 40 hors per week.

 

[Narcah]

I’m going to go out on a limb and say we have a hung jury as to whether labor unions are good or not. I still choose to believe Ellen White on this matter. 

Maybe we should be encouraging all these excess pastors to become missionarys so we can go home sooner?

In some industries it is almost impossible to get a job without working on Sabbath. If you truly stick to your beliefs about unions, God always provides.  

[Narcah]

One last tidbit from Mark Ayers, the (former) president of the AFL-CIO's Building & Construction Trades Department (BCTD.)

 

“We must understand that we are constantly being judged by what we do and how we conduct ourselves every single day we are on the job,” he said. “Over the last thirty years or so, we didn’t lose the lion’s share of the market because the competition was so good,” he said. ‘We lost it because our attitudes, our productivity, and our work ethic got worse and we took our jobs and our work for granted.”

[Gregory Matthews]

Narcah:  No one has raised the question in this forum as to whether or not labor unions are good.  That may be a political/economic question.  In actual fact, no one has raised the question as to whether or not someone should join any/every labor union.  The questions raised here has been:

*  What were the specific reasons for which EGW said that one should not join a labor union?

*  Would EGWs counsel apply to a situation in which none of the reasons EGW gave for not joining a labor union applied to a person joining a specific labor union?

*  How would her advice apply to a labor union that supported the rights of Sabbath-keepers to have the Sabbath free from work and I gave a specific example of such?

*  How would her advice apply to a labor union that wanted to hire you to provide pastoral care to it members, but required you to join in order to do so?

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Narcah:  I find your comment as to a statement from an AFL/CIO President to be of interest.

I previously mentioned that while I had never been hired by a labor union to provide pastoral care to labor union member I developed a relationship with a Local President that was such that he sent members to me for pastoral care.  As a result of my friendship with this Local President, I met other national labor union leaders and included in what happened was the following:

*  I spent 40 minutes with a national labor union leader telling him why SDAs had concerns about labor union membership and why SDA members often requested exemption from a requirement to join a labor union.  To this day I have his personal telephone number and I can telephone him.

*  On another occasion, I told a group of national labor union leaders that if they did change their approach they were going fail to attract new members to join their labor union.

All of  this happened due to the relationship that I developed with the President of a labor union local where I worked.  He spoke at my retirement and mentioned how I had often given him advice, with which he disagreed, but when he followed it he had  found it to be the correct advice.

The bottom line is:  The people whom God places in positions of influence in the world, can have an impact on the world.  Just maybe, God will sometimes place people in unexpected places in the world in order to accomplish God's will.    It just might be that sometime God will place someone in a labor union  in order to accomplish the will of  God.

That might be in the case of a person hired by a labor union to provide pastoral care who was required to join that Union in order to be hired to provide that pastoral care.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Narcah:  You tell us that the excess pastors should go as missionaries:

Who will pay their wages?  The Church can't hire, as I said, all that graduate.

Are you telling us that we should not have chaplains serving in prisons, hospitals (not SDA), and in other non-SDA places?

 

[Narcah]

Where someone chooses to work is (hopefully) their choice. All I know for a certainty is that the pen of inspiration writes that labor unions are bad. 

If your only option as a ministerial graduate is to join a union, it’s ok to do something else. I was just reading this morning in Adventist Home about how young men are afraid to work with their hands and feel they have to study and be a lawyer, doctor, etc.  The trades are severely lacking in skilled young labor and the pay is excellent.  ($20 hour starting for just lifting roofing around middle TN, non-union.)

I don’t have a whole lot else to say about unions.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Are you aware that is some places in this world, it is just about impossible to work in the manner that you   suggest without joining a labor union?

I will remind you again:

* Yes, Ellen White spoke against labor unions, as she saw them in her day.

*  She gives specific reasons as to why she considered them to be bad.

*    My question is:  Would she give the same advice today if none of the reasons she gave for not joining a labor union were true in a specific instance?  I say that she would not, at least in some cases.

*    SDAs have often had problems with labor unions due to Sabbath issues.  I mentioned a case where a labor union wa supporting the right of a Sabbath-keeper to have Sabbath free from duty.  I believe she would support that labor union.

 

 

[Lone Ranger]

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 2:38 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

The followings should be noted as to labor unions:

*  The official position of the SDA Church is that it is an individual positon and one can be a SDA and also a member of a labor union.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

The Wanderer:  As to your comment about Ellen White:

Ellen White is well known for making  what are called contradictory statements.   As an example, to one person she might say that they should not eat eggs and to another person she would say that they should eat eggs.   She quite often spoke to individual situations.  She often did not intend that  her advice should be taken as an absolute standard for all people.  She expected that people would look for an guiding principle in her advice.  I will give  two examples for people who have    gone wrong due to a failure to understand this point.

*   Ellen White wrote to one woman telling her that she looked good in red and that she should have a red dress.  In  fact, Ellen White sent that woman some red cloth to make a red dress.  Even today, I meet people who reject Ellen White on the basis that some women do not look good in red and some women should not have a red dress.   NOTE:  What I say is truth.   I have met people who soundly rejected EGW for this reason.

*  While attending Seminary, the grandson of EGW was still alive.  He came to the Seminary each year and taught a class, which I attended.  In speaking to this issue, he informed the students that on one occasion,  EGW had   written that the women in Loma Linda should raise the heights of their skirts as they were to long.    He then went on to opine that he did not believe that EGW would continue on later occasions to suggest that each time the women in Loma Linda again raise their skirts due to the fact that they were to long, and she would not likely agree with women who today continued to suggest such.

EGW was a reasonable person.  She often gave seemingly contradictory advice as she expected people to look for the principle  not rigidly apply what she had written to all situations in all times and circumstances.  Those who do that are simply wrong.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I was not saying that EGW gave contradictory advice on Labor Unions.   I am saying to look for the principle behind what she wrote and do not attempt to make a rigid application of her writings to all situations.  She commonly did not advocate that.

Actually her comments on labor unions was some what limited.  But, she made clear statements as to why she said what she said.  My question comes from a position in which none of her objections would apply.   what then?

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Wnderer:  Thank you for your research and the thought that you have put into this.  It adds to, but does not duplicate, what I have previously written in an article that I once wrote.

I have never stated that EGW would advocate one joining any and/or all labor unions.  What I have asked is:  What would she say about joining a specific labor union that did not in any manner meet the specific objections that she raised about labor unions.  As a specific example, what about the labor union that has been cited that has support the right of a Sabbath-keeper to have the Sabbath free from employment.