George Knight Speaks

[Gregory Matthews]

Dr. George Knight is one of the most respected Adventist writers.  I am dumbfounded by the below article:

https://spectrummagazine.org/article/2018/08/28/adventism’s-shocking-fulfillment-prophecy

 

 

 

[CoAspen]

That some leadership ideas have paralleled the RC is not exactly news, it is just that so many people do not recognize it. "...... the churches right/responibility to make public statements to reinforce what the church does believe, on an official basis?", is not the question to me but rather is it what the 'church/Christ' would be teaching? We need to recognize that when a circle the wagons mentality is adopted by the top structure, we have began the wander in the wilderness journey....perhaps. 

He does come on strong, which will offend many people, but that is his opinion from his perspective. With out parsing the whole article, I am not uncomfortable with it.

[B/W Photodude]

7 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Dr. George Knight is one of the most respected Adventist writers. 

I think he is rapidly destroying that "respected writer" thing!

Really? Every religion has or should have in place a method of dealing with divergences from the truth of that religion. To attempt to tie President Wilson to the Catholic inquisition is really disingenuous. What really separates church discipline in the SDA church and the Roman church is no one is setting up any stakes for burning or other implements of torture for dissidents over at the general conference headquarters!

So, for those upset regarding President Wilson, perhaps they should go back to their Scripture for it is even discussed in Scripture on how to deal with those who would preach heresy.

[B/W Photodude]

3 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Have you looked in their basement?

Ala, old Adventist urban legends regarding torture chambers in the basements of Catholic churches?!

[LifeHiscost]

All of which leads one to believe we are definitely living in the time of the end and Jesus' coming is nearer than we might have at first believed.

Matthew 24:33

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Romans 13:11

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Revelation 22:12

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be

Revelation 3:11

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown

.Revelation 1:7

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!   

[pierrepaul]

18 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

So, for those upset regarding President Wilson, perhaps they should go back to their Scripture for it is even discussed in Scripture on how to deal with those who would preach heresy.

The only example in scripture of which I'm aware was the Jerusalem council. However, in the Bible we have no record of Peter and James trying to manipulate the procedures, protocols and votes; rather they humbly accepted Paul's advice. How would Paul have dealt with Peter and James had those two manipulated the council vote, declared Paul a dissident, and ordered that he had one year to submit to the Judaizing and circumcising doctrine, failing which he'd face serious consequences? We don't know the answer to this.

[pierrepaul]

On 8/29/2018 at 9:34 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

Dr. George Knight is one of the most respected Adventist writers.  I am dumbfounded by the below article

I have read and enjoyed many of Dr Knight's published works, especially the historical summarizing published under the Adventist Heritage Series, but also his reflections, commentaries and study guides on some of the books of the Bible. However, as of late, his post-retirement outbursts and over-the-top rhetoric leave me unimpressed.

I don't know if Mr Wilson is prone to fits of anger and juvenile temper tantrums, nor do I know if his style is "dictatorial", and frankly I don't really care. Little that goes on at the GC is of any consequence to our congregation and our local mission.

[LifeHiscost]

Can one believe anything on the surface anymore?

This confusion comes at a time when the need for clear data on school violence has never been more pressing. Students around the country are heading back to school this month under a cloud of fear stemming from the most recent mass shootings in Parkland, Fla., and Santa Fe, Texas.

At least 53 new school safety laws were passed in states in 2018. Districts are spending millions of dollars to "harden" schools with new security measures and equipment. A blue-ribbon federal school safety commission led by Education Secretary Betsy DeVos is holding public events around the country, including one in Alabama Tuesday. Children are spending class time on active-shooter drills and their parents are buying bulletproof backpacks.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!

[Gregory Matthews]

I am dumbfounded that a man of his stature would say what he said.

It is NOT that I believe him to be either right or wrong.  I am not passing judgment on what he said.  I do not claim what he said to be either true or false.

But, no thinking person should simply dismiss what he said.  It is worthy of consideration by all.

 

[pierrepaul]

I read Knight's Brief History of Seventh-day Adventists, Organizing to Beat the Devil, and A Search for Identity. These three mini-books were published in 1999, 2000 and 2001, long before the Ted Wilson era. I found Dr Knight's observations to be insightful and interesting.

The question of church authority is as old as the church itself. The schism of the Eastern Church and the mutual, reciprocal anathemas pronounced by the various bishops of the day form the model. But back in those days, schism was a major step, one on which kingdoms and empires could rise and fall (cue the investiture crisis and the Henry/Gregory Canossa incident).  Following the Reformation, with the idea that believers can read and interpret the scripture for themselves, together with the Enlightenment ideas of freedom of worship and conscience, shook the concept of ecclesiastical authority to the bone. Today schism happens regularly and few take note outside of the affected denomination. Were schism to occur in the SdA church, some careers might be derailed, others would be launched; some power plays might be thwarted, others might be realized; members would leave and join as the denomination reorganises itself and there may even be the specter of lawsuits between brethren before the secular courts to settle property and trademark claims. But life would go on, and few outside of Adventism would care.

[Gail]

I got wind of this GC move from Reinder Bruisma, who was also very concerned.

It sometimes seems amazing that anyone would want to belong to a Christian organization at all when there are the same politics going on as in the world. 

I would rather that reform come from the ground up than from the top down. This is an interesting situation, indeed

[Gregory Matthews]

We are witnessing the potential breakup of the SDA organization, as we know it, to an extent that I would not have imagined.

I previously have stated that in the future, SDA historians might be able to state that President Ted did more to bring about the ordination of women than any other person could have done.

I have dismissed those who have suggested that President Tec actually wants to split this denomination.  I am still not willing to accept that position.

But, I cannot dismiss the events taking place that seem to be driving in that direction.

As I see it, this denomination, at least in North America, faces a number of problems, of which financial support is one, along with others, for which I do not believe have a human solution.  As I look at these present issues, it seems to me that the consequences of decisions that are being made are reducing the likelihood of our resolving those issues.  One reason being that we are spending valuable time going in a direction that ignores and leaves for a later time some critical issues that can not wait to be addressed.

I do not suggest that certain issues being addressed are not important.  Perhaps some of these could have been resolved in local areas.  Perhaps we should trust each other to do what is best in their area and not expect all issues to be addressed by overworked people on the highest levels of our denomination.

Yes, that would mean that some differences exist from place to place.  What must people do not know that that such actually already exists.  The SDA denomination does not do everything the same in each country in the world.  Differences already exist.

 

 

 

[pierrepaul]

29 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

There is nothing worse than religious turf wars.

Amen. I wonder how many man-hours have been spent fighting these battles. It reminds me of various court cases where the province (or state) takes the federal government to court to fight over turf, all at the taxpayers' expense. In Quebec, we had a ridiculous case where Revenue Quebec (the provincial government's tax collection arm) was in court against Hydro-Quebec, (a crown corporation wholly owned by the provincial government) over a dispute about the application of the sales tax. The government was literally suing itself at taxpayers expense, before a court also funded by the provincial taxpayers.

I feel the same way when tithe dollars are spent for the NAD (a creature of the GC) to fight with the GC, and vice versa. I can tell you I'm not particularly motivated to send in a generous tithe donation in 2018.

[Gregory Matthews]

Wanderer:  I said "potential breakup" and you said "early stages."    There are similar, but perhaps you are a bit more advanced than I am and are suggesting that the breakup has already happened.

As to your statement to the effect that God does not want the denomination split up into independent atoms:  Standard SDA teaching is that in the final events of End Time, .people and congregations will be on their own without the support of higher organizations such as the General Conference.  

 

[Gail]

You know, perhaps this crisis will save many, those whose dependence upon the safety net of an organization is producing complacency or misguided focus.

In my personal experience, I was craving the salt experience. For the most part I served either the converted or those whose hearts were already opened. But I desired to show God’s love, as best I can, to more groups. I wanted to exercise my understanding of God’s love to grow myself as well as providing positive PR for the case of a loving Creator at a time when Christians are becoming known for their hatred.

If the official denomination self-destructs, the work may become more difficult but we need not fear. It may be what we need to return to the rudiments. It may make us a movement again and I see that as a good thing.

[Lone Ranger]

IM(NO)HO, in my experience the SDA organization is moving from a position of proclaiming God's message for end times (if it ever did that) to one of power and control for the few at the top. I think GK's article highlights this trend.

I used to think that committees were in place to help even off and dampen the effects of strong personalities and allow the wisdom of many minds to arrive at an honest, Biblical, God-led decision.  This is SO not the case. Power and control are the only motivating factors in the SDA organization. This article highlights this. There is no difference between SDA and RCC.