A couple questions on God's plan of salvation

[JoeMo]

1. It seems to me that the angels (at least satan) must have rebelled in heaven prior to God's creation of man.  In His omnipotence, God had to know this would happen.  Yet God created man, let satan deceive man into rebelling against God as well.  God knew this would happen as well.  Yet, God to loved the world (us) that He gave His only begotten Son that He who believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.  Why would He love us enough to sacrifice His Son, yet not offer the same deal to angels?  Couldn't Jesus have incarnated as an angel and redeemed them, bypassing 6,000 years of misery for humans  Why did He need (or want) us anyway?

2. For 6,000 years, God has (for the most part)  limited the force of His sovereign will in deference to our free will.  He did the same for the angels, who also have free will.  For both orders of creation, the exercise of free will has wreaked havoc on the universe.  Yet, God has a plant to recreate a sinless universe full of free-will creatures who will never sin throughout eternity.  How will God accomplish His sovereign will of a perpetually sin-free universe without violating the free will of any of His sentient creatures?

[Gregory Matthews]

Your questions are complex, valid, important and probably not able to be totally answered within our boundaries as to the limits of     our knowledge about God.  My response must be considered incomplete, and at best partial.

# 1:  Some will argue that God did not know, while others will argue that God did know.  I will leave tis aspect of your question and only focus on the rest of your question.  The claim of Satan was that human life, if  given free choice would chose to rebel against God and to follow Satan as their leader--IOW sin.  If Jesus had incarnated as an angel, it would only have demonstrated what was already known.  There were angels who had not rebelled and sinned.  Incarnation as an angel would have demonstrated nothing new.    With the sin of both Adam and Eve, the entire human race had sinned.  In order to redeem humanity, Jesus had to incarnate as a human.

 

#2:  This saga, when it ends, will have demonstrated to all of creation--angels, humans, intelligent life on other planets, the results of rebellion against God.  As a result of  that demonstration, all such created life that remains alive spending eternity with God, will have freely made a choice that results in their determination that they will never rebel against God and therefore sin will never arise again.

 

[Kevin H]

First of all let me say that I am in agreement with what Gregory said. My comments will just be looking at it from the same basic perspective.

Second JoMoe, you are asking very important questions and I want to thank you for starting this thread!

1. Jesus could have been incarnated as an angel. God could redeem us by just becoming  a creature and bearing the sins of the world. But it would be more effective in becoming a creature most involved in the sin issue. The angels and beings on other planets have been around for probably billions of years. They have an acquaintance with God that we children, humans, have not had. In becoming human Jesus came down to the lowest level, and placed himself in the weakest situation and in the most danger. And like the children's story at church, a message is given in the language of children but where the message can also apply to the others sitting in the pew. The death of Jesus is for all creation. Jesus loves and wants and died for all of us.

2.  Prior to the sin issue the angels and beings on other worlds loved God, but theirs was an immature "My daddy can beat up your daddy" type of love. The Holy Spirit worked on the maturing of that love. That included coming to the answers about 3 things about God: A) Is he really God, the almighty, self existing creator, or did he just evolve out of nature and a higher life form who is trying to be the big boss and prevent people from evolving up to his level by imposing the law of self sacrificing love on us. B and C) If he is God what about people who break his law? He claims to be both just and merciful. Is it truly possible to be both or is he limited to either one or the other? To be just sinners would have to die. To be merciful sinners need to be forgiven.

God worked long with the free will of the creatures he had thus far created. One of the things he did was to create a world where they could experiment as to whether or not nature could naturally evolve or if it needs an intelligent creator. The Bible does not give us the details of this, but according to archaeologists and linguists the Hebrew words  translated "without form and void" when compared to how those words are used in other ancient writings, gives an implication that there was something going on here. Mrs. White's thoughts touch on it, but only to the same extent as the implications of the Hebrew words. Possibly things we find today that are used by people against creation are what's left from that time. What ever happened and was going on, it ended in chaos, represented by the water where we start that special week. At this point the universe was not saved, but through the choices they made two sides formed. Those who finally decided on rebellion against God, and those who were not yet willing to join the rebellion but wanted to stay with God but watch with an open mind. When the two sides were formed, based on evidence and faith (and God worked long with them) then God finally gave them proof as the spirit of God hovered over the chaos and the universe could see a very special week, where God moved from evidence to give proof that he was as indeed the creator.

Now for those who choose rebellion, they kept experimenting with  it among themselves, and licking their wounds for  the Holy Spirit would have had an easier time working with them. They could have taken their lumps, faced the consequences, and some, if not all of them could have gone to repentance. But sadly they became upset at creation and decided to attack the new creatures, which basically made them child molesters. They had to harden their hearts more to carry out such a diabolic plot. The hardening of their heart made it even harder for the Holy Spirit to reach them.

Those who had chose to not yet joining the rebellion were horrified as they saw their friends make  that choice and how those friends began to molest these children. They watched the events of history and the choices for good or for evil that people made. The outcomes horrified them. Even though they never sinned, they are still suffering with us. Then we came to the event where God became man. Could God, as a creature, still keep the law of self sacrificing love or is there some latent selfishness in him that would come out under the pressures of being a man? They were choosing to trust in God. Was this trust dependable? Was God worth being trusted and loved or was it vanity. As they saw the suffering of Christ, as they saw what sin was doing to their friends who had decided to rebel, as they saw what sin did to the human family, as they were endeared by us but would invisibly attend our funerals, some who they had the hope of seeing again, others who they realized they would not see again, this would soften their hearts. They came to hate sin and evil, and what ever questions and curiosities they had left were given up at the cross. And the fighting against Christ and what it took to fight against him again brought those in rebellion into even harder hearts, so that at the cross as they saw the love of God  one group so hated sin and evil that they had chosen fully to have nothing to do with the rebellion. The others so hardened their hate and cruelty that they became fully set in rebellion and thus both groups closed their probation at the cross. Not because God so declared, but because of their choices based on what they experienced. The universe will be forever safe; even thought the choice of sin and  rebellion is available, there is no interested in returning to these.

[Lone Ranger]

IMHO, these (among others) are the hard questions that should be occupying our energies. Doctrinal variations such as which day to worship on or forms of baptism or Calvinism vs Arminianism or women's ordination first of all are insignificant by comparison but, more important, I believe they will become (more) clear when these fundamentals are answered.

I think these questions challenge our assumptions and understandings of God, his nature and intent, Origins, and our understanding of Scripture.

I know. So far I haven't helped a bit.

[8thdaypriest]

On 11/10/2018 at 10:41 PM, JoeMo said:

Why would He love us enough to sacrifice His Son, yet not offer the same deal to angels?  Couldn't Jesus have incarnated as an angel and redeemed them, bypassing 6,000 years of misery for humans 

How do we know Jesus didn't appear as an angel - to the angels?   Many places in the OT describe the Son of God as "the Angel of the Lord".  

Assuming that the Son of God did appear as an angel, He is not described as dying - as an angel for angels. 

I think one reason may be that angels were created as spirit beings.  They DON'T DIE - in our sense of the word.   This  is why the Son was "made lower than the angels - FOR the suffering of death".  

Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."

[8thdaypriest]

The Creator absolutely did know this would happen.  I've come to believe that all of this - this painful process called "this age" - was God's plan from the beginning.   God knew this is what it would take, to "bring many sons to glory".

All of us are being "hardened" - either in righteousness or in unrighteousness.   We either welcome and invite the Lord to come in to our hearts/minds OR we resist.  God has allowed us to resist Him (an all powerful being).   If we have no such allowance, then we are mere lab rats, just responding to stimuli, and our God is the Manipulator in Chief.   Why God would want Stepford children, I cannot fathom.

This present age - for us - is testing, preparation, growing up. It is our university of hard knocks.  It is the refining process.  God wants children who have chosen Him and His way, with eyes open, having seen what evil is.

I also believe there are many who did not get a chance to CHOOSE.  They lived and died in ignorance of God and His Son.  They must be resurrected to continue their lives - to then CHOOSE whom they will serve.   This will be the resurrection of "the rest" at the 8th millennium.  

God wanted children.   It was His desire - for children - that started this whole painful process.   He is ultimately responsible - for everything.   And He has paid the price/penalty for that.  Did He pay enough - suffer enough - to PAY FOR all the pain that we humans have suffered?   I don't think we can know - until we get a glimpse of what He gave up. 

[JoeMo]

On 11/10/2018 at 9:41 PM, JoeMo said:

How will God accomplish His sovereign will of a perpetually sin-free universe without violating the free will of any of His sentient creatures?

I have mulled they concept of genetics around.  When Adam and Ever were created, did they have a gene that predisposed them to do "good"? In the descent of man into rebellion before the flood, could satan or his fallen angels somehow mutated that gene to predispose man to evil rather than good?  Could it be that we sin because we are sinners (predisposed to sin) rather than being sinners because we sin?

I think it's possible that when we receive our new bodies - become a new creation -  God will "un-mutate" that gene to it's original intent - to once again predispose us to good rather than evil.

[phkrause]

45 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

I think it's possible that when we receive our new bodies - become a new creation -  God will "un-mutate" that gene to it's original intent - to once again predispose us to good rather than evil.

Yes the Tree of Life! When Adam & Eve sinned, God took the "Tree of Life" away from them and when its restored we will have access to it once again. My thoughts have always been that there was something about eating the fruit from that tree!!

[Kevin H]

Yes JoeMo, we are sinners because of that tendency, not because we sin.

[JoeMo]

Another possible reason why God would redeem fallen humans and not fallen angels is this:

Angels were created long before the earth; and had a long time - maybe millennia - to experience God and learn how to administer the spiritual kingdom.  Comparatively speaking, Adam and Eve were just babies - not physically but emotionally and experiece-wise.  God giving them domination over the earth at their "young age" was like giving the car keys to your toddler and telling him/her to go get groceries (not knocking God - just making an analogy).

Since Eden was a "garden" (I infer that means a protected compound of sorts where supernatural and human beings could co-mingle), they may have been used to seeing the serpent around - maybe even had some innocent conversations with him.  After all, they walked and talked with God in the garden in the cool of the evening.  The Bible talks about God warning Adam and Eve to stay away from the tree - not the serpent.  Mentally naive Adam and Eve fell for the temptation to be more like God when tempted by the "street-wise" and crafty serpent - I think they got suckered into the deal. 

satan was hoping God's warning that they would die if they ate from the tree would come true immediately. It didn't - seems like satan misunderstood what God meant by "die".  Instead, Yahweh intervened; and satan was put on trial.  The two witnesses (required under God's law) were Adam and Eve.  satan was found guilty and sentence pronounced but not executed (yet).  Adam and Eve (and all of humanity) suffered the consequences of their disobedience.

But was their disobedience the sole cause of mankind's fall?  Maybe not.  Read Genesis 6:1-6 LITERALLY (it is weird); don't spiritualize it a way or try to assign some sort of esoteric types and anti-types.  Could these fallen angels have somehow introduced further predisposal to evil into the human genome?

[8thdaypriest]

21 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I have mulled they concept of genetics around.  When Adam and Ever were created, did they have a gene that predisposed them to do "good"? In the descent of man into rebellion before the flood, could satan or his fallen angels somehow mutated that gene to predispose man to evil rather than good?  Could it be that we sin because we are sinners (predisposed to sin) rather than being sinners because we sin?

I think it's possible that when we receive our new bodies - become a new creation -  God will "un-mutate" that gene to it's original intent - to once again predispose us to good rather than evil.

Even back in my "wild" days, I never indulged in much alcohol.  I always remembered what it did to my Dad.  He died at 60 of alcohol induced endocarditis.   I knew there were alcoholics hanging from every branch of my genetic tree.   I was afraid of alcohol.  I knew that I must have a genetic predisposition to alcohol addiction.  Now we know from science that this is true.  People inherit a predisposition to addiction. 

Thing is - human beings can become addicted to just about anything.  We know that salt is addictive.  So is sugar.  Stimulants.  Depressives.   TV Shows.  Sex.  "Love" - so called.  Smoking.  War games.  Adrenaline (high risk sports, games, military missions).  Everyone has heard of "adrenaline junkies".  

Personally - I believe that sin is addictive.  Evil is addictive.  Addiction actually changes the brain.   Some are genetically predisposed to one type of addiction.  Some to another.  We are all predisposed.  God knew this.  How much easier not to take the first drink. 

The structure and chemistry of the brain, which facilitate learning and skill development, and emotional attachment - is the same chemistry that supports addiction , when the brain "learns" bad habits leading to addiction. 

If you know any addicts personally - you know they will do ANYTHING to get the substance their brains want.  They will steal from those they love.  They will become prostitutes.  Anything! 

It takes a long (sometimes painful) healing process to train the brain in new healthy pathways.   The LORD usually does NOT instantly heal the addict.   I guess he wants them to understand the strength of addiction, and the long way back, so they will not take another "first drink". 

At the GR (Glorious Return),  the redeemed will receive new spiritual bodies.  We will then be spirit beings - like the angels.  We will no longer be carbon based (dirt) beings.   I don't think it will be a mater of "un-mutating" certain genes.  We will live in new bodies that are not made of the same DNA. 

I personally believe that humankind were made of dust on purpose - so they COULD be fully consumed, and pass out of existence - so they would not have to suffer the "forever and ever" punishment of fallen spirit beings, should they ultimately refuse the healing of Christ. 

[8thdaypriest]

46 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Read Genesis 6:1-6 LITERALLY (it is weird); don't spiritualize it a way or try to assign some sort of esoteric types and anti-types.  Could these fallen angels have somehow introduced further predisposal to evil into the human genome?

Joe.  You know I do NOT believe that fallen angels (spirit beings - not carbon based beings) were allowed to breed with human females.   That's from the First Book of Enoch, an Apocryphal book.  Guess I need to do a study highlighting the details from that book.  They are gross and not worthy of the Biblical Canon.  Some things are also inaccurate - like the number of days in the year, according to an "angel" sent to the writer of that book.  And of course there is the usual confusing mix of truth with falsehood - seen in every message inspired by the Evil One. 

[JoeMo]

49 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Joe.  You know I do NOT believe that fallen angels (spirit beings - not carbon based beings) were allowed to breed with human females.   That's from the First Book of Enoch, an Apocryphal book.

I DO know that, Rachel; it is one of the very few things we disagree on.  You know how much I respect you as a reliable and well-studied expositor of Scripture in general; but - as in other threads - this is one thing we have agreed to disagree about.  The verses to which I referred were in Genesis, not Enoch; and a LITERAL read of those verses says angels took on human form and had sex with human women and had children by them.  A few widely accepted translations of the Bible that say this exact thing:

"Now a population explosion took place upon the earth. It was at this time that beings from the spirit world looked upon the beautiful earth women and took any they desired to be their wives." (Gen. 6:2; The Living Bible)

"More and more people were born, until finally they spread all over the earth. Some of their daughters were so beautiful that supernatural beings came down and married the ones they wanted." (Gen. 6:2; Contemporary English Version)

"The number of people on earth continued to increase. When these people had daughters, the sons of God saw how beautiful they were. So they chose the women they wanted. They married them, and the women had their children. (Gen. 6:2; Easy-to-Read Version)

"When the ·sons of God [may refer to godly men among Seth’s descendants (ch. 5), or noble men, or angels] saw that ·these girls [the daughters of men/human beings;  either evil women among Cain’s descendants (4:17–24), poor women, or simply mortal women] were beautiful, they married any of them they chose [though their identity is unclear, their marriage clearly violated a boundary]. (Gen. 6:2; English Standard Expanded Bible)

[Kevin H]

JoeMo,, while I like a lot of what you wrote a couple of posts up, we would disagree on the ideas of Angels not being redeemed. It  was created beings who needed redeeming. Jesus did not have to die for angels then die for the beings on planet earth then die for each and every one off the other planet where God has life

Whether we commit acts of sin or not, humans have the sinful nature, but even without the sinful nature we still need redemption. Life comes from our righteousness by faith resting in God's love, whether for sinful humans or sinless angels. Jesus' death was not only redemptive for us but also for all the sinless angels. The only reason why it does not appear redemptive for the fallen angels is because they refuse to accept it. If  they were to the father would greet them like the prodigal son.

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, JoeMo said:

"When the ·sons of God [may refer to godly men among Seth’s descendants (ch. 5), or noble men, or angels] saw that ·these girls [the daughters of men/human beings;  either evil women among Cain’s descendants (4:17–24), poor women, or simply mortal women] were beautiful, they married any of them they chose [though their identity is unclear, their marriage clearly violated a boundary]. (Gen. 6:2; English Standard Expanded Bible)

In my opinion, the "boundary" that was violated, was the taking of multiple wives.  God said that "a man" (singular) was to cleave unto his wife (singular) - not "wives".  One man - one helpmate, is God's standard.  The New Testament confirms this.

For spirit beings to procreate with human women, that would mean they can change the very substance of their being (from spirit to flesh) at any time.  Not just appear in human form, to look like humans - but literally become humans.   That would mean those evil spirit beings incarnated, in a sense - into human flesh (as "adults" mind you - not to be born as an infant).  

Is this not diminishing the incarnation of Jesus, as if to say that incarnation was nothing special.  Spirit beings have done it before.

[8thdaypriest]

8 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

Jesus' death was not only redemptive for us but also for all the sinless angels. The only reason why it is not acceptive for the fallen angels is because they refuse to accept it.

I agree!

[JoeMo]

14 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Life comes from our righteousness by faith resting in God's love, whether for sinful humans or sinless angels.

?

[JoeMo]

14 hours ago, Kevin H said:

we would disagree on the ideas of Angels not being redeemed.

No we wouldn't.  I'm sure there were angels on the fence - maybe even leaning towards satan's side until they saw satan's true plan - to overtake God and destroy humanity.  Once they saw the enormous consequences of the evil they were doing, some of them repented and were forgiven.  Some did not.

Anyways, I'm just proposing certain scenarios here; throwing them against the wall to see if they stick.  I don't necessarily believe everything I'm throwing out here - just trying to see what others think.

 

[8thdaypriest]

14 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Jesus' death was not only redemptive for us but also for all the sinless angels.

How do we know that some of the angels who - at first - fell for Satan's lies, did not later return to the Father?   The Father would have forgiven them, I think.   Only at the cross, when Satan and His crew committed premeditated torture and murder, did they cross the line and close their probation.  

When was Satan cast out completely and permanently - to the earth?  Book of Job tells of Satan attending a council before the Father.  Later the NT says that Satan was no longer allowed to accuse the saints before God. 

[JoeMo]

14 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

In my opinion, the "boundary" that was violated, was the taking of multiple wives

That's not what Jude and Peter say:

"And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day." (Jude 1:6)  Could that "proper dwelling" have been heaven and their spiritual bodies?

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (2 Peter 3:19-20) Why in the days of Noah? Because humans and angels were having babies. Something God could not allow.

[JoeMo]

Why are certain fallen angels held in the abyss while satan is free to roam the earth, seeking out those he can destroy?  Is it because they crossed a boundary that even satan dare not cross?

[8thdaypriest]

Here's three other translations.

Jude 1:6 "And the angels that did not keep within their original authority, but abandoned their proper sphere, he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for the Judgment of the Great Day." (Complete Jewish Bible)

Jude 1:6 "And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day." (NAS)

Jude 1:6 "You also know that the angels who did not keep within their proper domain but abandoned their own place of residence, he has kept in eternal chains in utter darkness, locked up for the judgment of the great Day." (New English Translation)

Leaving their assigned positions - positions assigned by the Father in the spirit realm - to tempt human beings to rebellion in the earthly sphere - against the LORD's commands.   Makes me think the LORD must have warned them, they would not be able to return, if they went down that road. 

[8thdaypriest]

9 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Why are certain fallen angels held in the abyss while satan is free to roam the earth, seeking out those he can destroy?  Is it because they crossed a boundary that even satan dare not cross?

I still say that procreating lots of spirit/human beings,  makes Jesus Christ (a spirit/man) something not that special. 

[JoeMo]

2 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I still say that procreating lots of spirit/human beings,  makes Jesus Christ (a spirit/man) something not that special. 

Jesus is still special.  Number one, He was incarnated by the will of God; not the rebellious free will of fallen angels.  Two - Jesus never reproduced to make human-spirit hybrids - He did not "create" a new and improved human.  Third, Jesus was not "created" by a sexual act; He was "incarnated" by the power of God's spirit. Lastly, Jesus was not half/human half spirit - He was 100% man and 100% God.  Don't ask me how that works.

Jesus was more than any offspring of angels - He could lay down His life and take it up again.  The fallen angels and their offspring will die like men.

"God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods”: “How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked? Defend the weak and the fatherless;  uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed. Rescue the weak and the needy;  deliver them from the hand of the wicked. “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness;  all the foundations of the earth are shaken. “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’ But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.” (Psalms 82:1-7)

 

You don't seem to think angels can truly take physical form.  Take a look at the "men" who came to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19.  They were grabbing people and being grabbed.  If they had physical arms and hands that worked like human appendages, why couldn't they have other appendages that worked like human ones did.  You're right that God would not allow such a union; but there's that pesky free will thing again.  Angels have a free will to defy God.

[Lone Ranger]

17 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Jesus' death was not only redemptive for us but also for all the sinless angels.

Why would sinless angels need redemption?