SDAs & Military Service

[Gregory Matthews]

APL:  You re entitled to your opinion.

However, it and/or similar terms are often required to be used today in order for the common English language that we speak today to be understood.

On a personal basis, I have no desirer for you to give me any title.  I do not seek such.  However, I do not attempt to correct people who may, as a sign of respect, attribute a title to  me that I have not taken.

Whether or not you agree with the English word "clergy" being applied to me, does not concern me in any way.  However, out of respect to communication in the English speaking world, I am clergy.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

APL:  One may argue that all SDA members are clergy.   However, even as far back a Biblical times, individual congregations did appoint leaders who were distinguished from the members who had appointed them.  They may have been given the titles of Deacons, Elders, and more.  Regardless of the exact title, they were distinguished from the members.  So, regardless of what you think should be the title, you should not argue that Biblically no title should be  given to congregational leaders.

NOTE:  SDAs do not generally use the title of Bishop.   But, it should not be said to be against the Bible to do so.  On that basis, in some very rare cases, individual SDA clergy have taken the title of Bishop and the SDA  denomination has not objected to t hem doing so.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Probably the best known SDA clergy person who assumed the title of Bishop is Bishop Albert A. Leiske, who assumed that title in 1952 as he began the American Town Hall of the Air.

For the story of that, see:

http://www.americanreligious.org/tele-cast/telecast-history-and-information

 

[APL]

3 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Whether or not you agree with the English word "clergy" being applied to me, does not concern me in any way.  However, out of respect to communication in the English speaking world, I am clergy.

Should be call you father Greg?  No.  The government may recognize you are "clergy" and give you certain responsibilities, but tell from a Biblical basis (include verses) what you are a "clergy" can do that another follower of Christ cannot do? 

[Gregory Matthews]

As a Father of three (3) sons, I am a Father.

 

[APL]

Read Ezekiel 34.

I see no reply to the request of what SDA "clergy" can do that a follower of Christ cannot do.  Yes, there are different workers.  One will never know if a leader is leading astray unless one knows what the Bible says for themselves.  We have only One master, One Father.  Pastors, teachers, administraters are all brethren, children of One Father.  None is master over another. 

[APL]

40 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Once again, error is trying to creep in. Away with all your wanton bad news and grumblings about Pastors! We have heard them all dozens of times. We have it memorized my friend

The question again - what can "clergy" do that any true believer in Christ can't do?  You have not answered. The idea of clergy/laity is an artificial division,  may be even an idol by some who believe ordination somehow elevates and individual, and prevents God calling whom He will to service.  NOTE - service, not rulership or being head over anyone.  Christ is the only head of the church and call whom He will.

[APL]

11 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

BUT...Its the WRONG question!! THAT question isnt in the Bible anywhere! 

You are right!  It is NOT in the Bible!  THAT is the point. The idea of clergy/laity is not Biblical. 

[Gustave]

25 minutes ago, APL said:

The question again - what can "clergy" do that any true believer in Christ can't do?  You have not answered. The idea of clergy/laity is an artificial division,  may be even an idol by some who believe ordination somehow elevates and individual, and prevents God calling whom He will to service.  NOTE - service, not rulership or being head over anyone.  Christ is the only head of the church and call whom He will.

 

 

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained". John 20, 22

 

Conformation of the above

"And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money". Acts 8, 18

That's one thing right there not "any true believer" could do. 

 

Not "just ANYONE" can be a Bishop either. 

 

"Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ".Philippians 1,1

 

Just like in Judaism prior to Christ's Resurrection, there was a hierarchy in the Church. 

 

Even Ellen White taught that Lucifer "was an archangel"

Which, according to Strong's is: 

G743 = a Chief Angel, a Prince of Angels, etc. 

Thus, it can be demonstrated that a hierarchy existed in heaven as well. 

 

 

 

[Kevin H]

May I suggest a new thread for these discussions on the clergy and not hijack this thread about the conference on the military. . 

[APL]

11 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

You dont get to twist my words around. I was referring to your question. The Bible does not ask the question "what can laity not do that a Pastor can do?" THAT kind of question isnt anywhere asked in scripture. The Bible makes it clear the very distinctions you are denying. I posted them above. It is your choice to reject them.

It is your choice also to ignore what I say, makes actually no difference to me.  The Bible does NOT make the distinctions you claim.  It is your choice to make something out of nothing.

10 hours ago, Kevin H said:

May I suggest a new thread for these discussions on the clergy and not hijack this thread about the conference on the military. . 

You are ex-military.  You also espouse a non-violent God in the "larger view" right?  I'm not sure how you reconcile the two.  The idea that we need to fight is very old covenant type thinking, that is, WE must do something to ensure of peace and safety when in reality, it is Christ we owe for our peace and safety. 

[Gregory Matthews]

The Wanderer has asked about chaplaincy training in the U.S.  When he asked his questions, I doubt that he realized how complex the answer might be.  Speaking for the U.S. there is the military chaplaincy, Federal chaplaincies that include hospitals and prisons.  Then there are private hospitals, which also includes SDA hospitals.  In addition, recently an industrial chaplaincy has come into being.  In some cases, there are substantial differences as to training for these different chaplaincies.  I may comment on some of these chaplaincies later.  But, in this post I will concentrate on the military chaplaincy along with some other Federal chaplaincies, such as the VA.

1)  The Basics:

*  A fundamental basic to all Federal chaplaincies is that the Federal government can not establish a religion.  Therefore, all Federal chaplaincies begin with the idea that the individual denominations must decide who should represent them as a chaplain.

*  From this perspective, the individual denominations determine the training that their chaplain must have.  In addition, the individual denominations have the authority to decide whether or not a specific individual may be hired as a Federal chaplain and in addition they have the authority to have that person removed from employment as a chaplain.  From this perspective, each person allowed to become a Federal chaplain must have an official Certificate of Endorsement from a recognized group, of which I suspect that may be about 200 such groups.  But, I have not verified that figure, and may do it later?

*  However, the Federal government may put additional requirements on those individuals whom the denomination presents as potential Federal chaplains.  Clergy at one time were required to be ordained.  The Federal courts have ruled that provision to be an illegal discrimination against women and also some denominational groups.  So, at the present time, only the Endorsement is required.  

*  Military chaplains a restricted as to age,  VA Chaplains are not.  Prison chaplains have  some specific requirements of which I am not aware.  Military chaplains have health requirements that VA chaplains do not have.

*  The Certificate of Endorsement contains a statement that the person endorsed is authorized to fully perform the duties of clergy.  From that perspective, we have SDA women who serve as military chaplains, but only males serve as Roman Catholic military chaplains.

*  All military chaplains are required to have the MDiv. degree.  All, VA chaplains, with some exceptions for chaplains of very limited service, are required to have the MDiv. degree, or a recognized equivalent, which is not easy to obtain.

*  VA Chaplains are required to have two (2) units of Clinical Pastoral Education (CPE)  from an accredited ACPE training center.  NOTE:  It is rare for a VA chaplain to be hired who has less than four (4) such units--which is essentially a full academic year of training.  [NOTE:  I am not commenting here on an organization similar to the ACPE who also prepares clergy to serve as chaplains.   I will simply leave my comment as I have stated it.]

2)  Initial training  in the U.S. military:

*  All military chaplains begin their active duty as a chaplain with an assignment to a training program that lasts about three (3) months.

*  The intent of this training program is to orient the clergy to the military system in which they will serve  (Army, Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard).

*  In addition, this training program teaches them how to perform their duties while remaining faithful to their respective denominational beliefs and in addition, how to perform their responsibilities to people who come for different belief backgrounds.

*  To put the above in a brief statement:  Military chaplains are not expected to perform a duty that violates their beliefs, but  they are expected to make arrangements for that person to receive form another source that spiritual nurture that the person needs.  IOW,  I was not required to hear the confession of a Roman catholic soldier.  I was required to attempt to get that soldier in touch with a RC priest who would hear that confession.

*  This expectation to assist the solder in not limited to Christian beliefs.  This was an area in which I taught at the Army Chaplain School, and requires more comment than I can make in this forum.  I had a whole class on this subject. 

*  NOTE:  Under the provisions of the Geneva Convention, military chaplains are not armed.  Therefore, they do not receive individual weapons training.

3)  Advanced military training:

*  Military chaplains generally receive 6-months of additional schooling at the Chaplain School of  their military.

*  Military chaplains are Commissioned Officers.  As such, throughout their service aa military chaplain, they receive training common to all Commissioned Officers.  A substantial part of that training will include war and how it is conducted and its effects.

*  As a personal note, I was once sent to another base, for a three (3) month period of time.   At that base, I and the others in my group were give one basic problem to resolve.  We worked on it 5-days a week, plus additional study for the entire three months.

*  At every point in one's military career there is advanced schooling that one takes,  that may last up to an academic year.

*  A very few military chaplains are selected to attend civilian universities to obtain an advanced degree, or to receive some other type of training.   This will be a full government expense and while on salary. 

*  I was very fortunate in being allowed to attend Chapman University to obtain a Master's degree in Counseling Psychology. 

*  Higher ranking chaplains receive additional training, at their service Chaplain School.

*  Following that, a few military chaplains will attend the Command and General Staff School.

*  In addition, higher ranking chaplains attend schools such as the War College.

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

In this post,  I will address aspects of the question that The Wanderer asked, that may differ from what I have posted in my response above.

 

1)  Basic Issues: 

*  The life and death of a health care organization, such as a hospital depends upon a periodic evaluation by JCAHO (Joint Commission on he Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations).  A failure to meet their accreditation standards may result in the end in government payments for care provided and/or the loss of the legal authority to provide services.  

*  NOTE:  This is so important that during a JACHO evaluation all staff become in the evaluation process, to include chaplains.

*  JCAHO has some limited provisions related to the provision of pastoral care.  

*   In more recent times an organization known as JCAPS (Joint Commission of the Accreditation of Pastoral Services) has come into being.  The purpose of JCAPS  is to determine common standards for the provision of pastoral care and to include those standards in a JCAHO evaluation.

*  It should be noted that both JCAHO and JCAPS evaluations are costly and must be paid for by the organization involved.  If the JCAPS standards were to be fully included in the JCAHO evaluation, the costs to the institution would be reduced.

*  At the present time, JCAPS accreditation is not required.  However, healthcare organizations are, on a voluntary basis, beginning to  integrate JCAPS standards into their institutional requirements which means that clergy employed by those organizations must personally meet all JCAPS standards.

*  It is expected that eventually all  healthcare organizations will have to meet JCAPS standards as part of a JCAHO evaluation.   But, this is not presently the case.

2)  Civilian Hospitals:

*  NOTE:  In my use of the term "civilian hospital" in this post I am including hospitals that may be run by a non-Federal, governmental agency.

*  Generally, civilian hospitals may establish their own standards as to the employment of chaplains.

*  In actual fact these hospitals may not have the same requirements for recognition by a recognized denominational group that Federal hospitals have.  

*  From this perspective, some civilian hospital have hired people as SDA chaplains who are NOT recognized by the SDA denomination as SDA Clergy.  E.G.  I am thinking now of such a person who was employed for several years as a SDA chaplain who was not recognized as such by the SDA Church.  Today that person is recognized as SDA clergy.

*  These hospitals are generally/often requiring four (4) units of CPE from an accredited ACPE training center.  But, this is presently not total.

 

3)  SDA Hospitals:

*  In actual fact, the CEO may hire whomever the CEO wishes to hire.

*   In probably all of the larger SDA hospitals that hire more than one chaplain, non-SDA clergy will be included in the pastoral staff.  Those non-SDA clergy will generally meet the common standards required for chaplains.

*  Some SDA hospitals are only hiring chaplains who meet common standards.  However, in the past, some SDA hospitals have hired people as SDA chaplains who, while SDA members, were not recognized as SDA Clergy.  Some of those have not had any theological training at all.

*  It is situations like that above that lie behind the JCAPS standards becoming required.

As a general point of information:  JCAPS and their standards originated primarily within the VA system.  

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

One last comment on aspects of the question asked by The Wanderer:

Chaplains are today employed by organizatons that are neither military nor  healthcare.  On a limited basis, labor unions have employed chaplains to serve thier members.  Industral chaplain are also employed today.

The requirements for such employment differ so widely that I am not going to addres them.

[Gregory Matthews]

Some may be interested in my telling a personal story, looselly related to the question that The Wanderer asked:

When I was first hired as a VA chaplain, it was to work 16 hours a week, in a part time position.  Upon my selection, two (2) women each filed a Federal lawsuit against the VA for selecting me over them.  The Department of Justice defended the VA in that litigation.

Woman #1 alleged that she had been illegally discriminated against in my selection.  One of the several claims of illegal discrimination was that the VA had discriminated against her on the basis of age.  What she did not know, was that she and I were in the same age group, as far as discrimination was concerned.  The District Court ruled that she did not meet the valid, established educational requirements to be a VA chaplain and therefore dismissed the lawsuit without ruling on the merits of her discrimination claim.

Woman # 2, also alleged discrimination in several aspects.  Her claims were heard in both the District and the Appellate Court.  In addition, she alleged that the VA had used her to perform the duties of a VA chaplain in a volunteer basis.  On that basis, the VA could not claim that she did not meet VA requirements to be a VA chaplain.  The Federal Courts made several interesting rulings in this case:

a)  It ruled that indeed she had been discriminated against in the requirement that VA chaplains be ordained.  It ordered the VA to change that requirement on the basis that it discriminated against both women and some   individual denominations.

b)  It ruled that the VA had not used her in the past to perform as a VA Chaplain.

c)  It ruled that the VA was correct in refusing to hire her as a VA chaplain, in view of the fact that it was a valid requirement for a VA chaplain to have an Endorsement, and the Roman Catholic Church had not  endorsed her as a Roman Catholic Priest.

NOTE:  My employment as a VA chaplain was never in jeopardy.  If the Court had ruled in favor of either of the women, it simply   would have issued an order pertaining to them, which, might (?) have required tha they also be hired as a VA chaplain.

 

 

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Some may be interested in my telling a personal story, looselly related to the question that The Wanderer asked:

When I was first hired as a VA chaplain, it was to work 16 hours a week, in a part time position.  Upon my selection, two (2) women each filed a Federal lawsuit against the VA for selecting me over them.  The Department of Justice defended the VA in that litigation.

Woman #1 alleged that she had been illegally discriminated against in my selection.  One of the several claims of illegal discrimination was that the VA had discriminated against her on the basis of age.  What she did not know, was that she and I were in the same age group, as far as discrimination was concerned.  The District Court ruled that she did not meet the valid, established educational requirements to be a VA chaplain and therefore dismissed the lawsuit without ruling on the merits of her discrimination claim.

Woman # 2, also alleged discrimination in several aspects.  Her claims were heard in both the District and the Appellate Court.  In addition, she alleged that the VA had used her to perform the duties of a VA chaplain in a volunteer basis.  On that basis, the VA could not claim that she did not meet VA requirements to be a VA chaplain.  The Federal Courts made several interesting rulings in this case:

a)  It ruled that indeed she had been discriminated against in the requirement that VA chaplains be ordained.  It ordered the VA to change that requirement on the basis that it discriminated against both women and some   individual denominations.

b)  It ruled that the VA had not used her in the past to perform as a VA Chaplain.

c)  It ruled that the VA was correct in refusing to hire her as a VA chaplain, in view of the fact that it was a valid requirement for a VA chaplain to have an Endorsement, and the Roman Catholic Church had refused to endorse her as a Roman Catholic Priest.

NOTE:  My employment as a VA chaplain was never in jeopardy.  If the Court had ruled in favor of either of the women, it simply   would have issued an order pertaining to them, which, might (?) have required tha they also be hired as a VA chaplain.

 

 

Woman # 2 sought the endorsement of Catholic Priest and was [of course] denied....

Or,

Did she try to "slip in"- thinking that was the way to get what she wanted when she knew the answer would be no, short of going that route? 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Oh, she knew.  She sought to slip into the position without the knowledge of the RC Church.

Thanks for asking the question.  As a result, I have revised my written statement to better reflect the actual situation.

 

[Kevin H]

Any updates and summery on the conference?

[Gregory Matthews]

I am waiting for an update.  I will post when I find it.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

The following is a report from Adventist today on  SDA  military service:

https://atoday.org/adventist-leaders-discuss-military-service-non-combatants-conscientious-objectors/

 

 

 

 

[phkrause]

Great article!!