A New Look at Evangelism

[Gregory Matthews]

See:

https://atoday.org/on-evangelism/

 

[phkrause]

I used to have much respect for Loren Seibold, but most of his last articles have been nothing but crying and crying about evangelists!! I almost have a idea who his remarks are directed at!! I see these same evangelists go to the Philippines, Russia, China, Cuba, Colombia, etc., and don't hear the same complaints from those countries local pastors/churches!!! I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that Loren has some kind of chip on his shoulder??

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, phkrause said:

I used to have much respect for Loren Seibold, but most of his last articles have been nothing but crying and crying about evangelists!! I almost have a idea who his remarks are directed at!! I see these same evangelists go to the Philippines, Russia, China, Cuba, Colombia, etc., and don't hear the same complaints from those countries local pastors/churches!!! I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that Loren has some kind of chip on his shoulder??

I also have a negative impression of his articles, but I did see some good points in this article. Will try and get back and go thru them. There are a lot of problems at all levels of the church today in the NAD, I just have to watch carefully that I am not one of them! I am getting the impression that the era of big evangelism drives in NAD is probably over and we are down to one on one kind of work where the greatest success always was anyway. I suspect that nearly everyone has heard the gospel message in the North America continent, they just don't know the particulars of the SDA church. In fact, many members of the SDA church don't really know in depth what we believe! To run a lot of people through the baptismal tank and then have them disappear is sad, but it is not a new thing. An aunt of mine was baptized in the Takoma Park SDA church almost eighty years ago. She walked out the door and never came back. And baptizing kids, seriously (?), when some kids are hellions in church and they baptize them before they can demonstrate good behavior?! That is wrong, but does "look good" on reports to the conference. Baptizing kids does not turn them into little angels.

[JoeMo]

This might be a little controversial but ...

At mass evangelism events, when people are baptized, they are baptized into specific SDA congregations.  Is the purpose of evangelizing to bring people to the SDA denomination, or to bring them to Christ?  For me, it's the latter.

Another issue - in The U.S., SDA evangelistic meetings run 5 nights a week for weeks!  In the culture here, most people are not willing to make that kind of commitment.  In developing and 3rd world countries, the culture is much more amenable to mass meetings.  I've been involved in some evangelism in Latin America; and sometimes the crowds are HUGE!  Never seen that in U.S. SDA evangelistic meetings.

I do agree with taking people off the rolls who have not given a penny or attended church for years - most of whom have vanished.  Records say there are more than 20 million SDA's in the world.  How many are "practicing" SDA's?

[B/W Photodude]

8 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I do agree with taking people off the rolls who have not given a penny or attended church for years - most of whom have vanished. 

A particular church cannot know who has or hasn't given a "penny" to the church. Many no longer pay tithe but give large amounts to local church budgets. Other contribute large amounts directly to "independent" ministries such as VOP, Adventist World Radio, or ADRA. Some send their money to another church on the other side of the country for various reasons. There is no whole church tracking system collating all the given records into one large "giving profile" on individual members. So, I make no assumptions on what people do or do not give to the church or any ministry. 

[JoeMo]

11 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I do agree with taking people off the rolls who have not given a penny or attended church for years - most of whom have vanished. 

Wanderer - I stick by this statement when taking it as a whole.  You only addressed one of the three conditions I listed.  Maybe I could have been clearer if I said "and" instead of "or".

B/W - point well taken.  I myself do not give my tithes and offerings to just my "home church" (which is the Conference Church - no particular congregation).  A big chunk of my offerings go to supporting ministries (SDA and non-SDA) as well.  The point is; I am still a "participating member of the SDA Church.

My question remains - even though the church roles show over 20 million SDA's world-wide, I still wonder how many of those are even minimally active in the SDA church?  Hopefully the ones who have left are still active Christians.

[phkrause]

On 5/14/2019 at 11:52 PM, JoeMo said:

Records say there are more than 20 million SDA's in the world.  How many are "practicing" SDA's?

Isn't that kind of a judgement call?? 

[phkrause]

On 5/14/2019 at 8:44 PM, B/W Photodude said:

And baptizing kids, seriously (?), when some kids are hellions in church and they baptize them before they can demonstrate good behavior?! That is wrong, but does "look good" on reports to the conference. Baptizing kids does not turn them into little angels.

I do agree B/W, but there is a Pastor/Evangelist, at the moment I can't think of his name?? I believe he's from the North West area of the country. I was listening to a sermon of his, if I can find it I'll post it, but he believes that children, if they ask should be baptized!! Not sure yet how I feel about baptizing kids. Having said that, it seems we do try to baptize kids when they get to 12/13 even if they might not really be ready and that's without an evangelist, but the local churches throughout the country??

[JoeMo]

55 minutes ago, phkrause said:

Isn't that kind of a judgement call?? 

Probably.  It was meant to be a rhetorical question.  I'm not sure that anyone could make a reasonable estimate.  For example, I know of a few people on this forum whom I consider to be "good" SDA's that haven't stepped into an SDA church in a long time.

[JoeMo]

49 minutes ago, phkrause said:

Having said that, it seems we do try to baptize kids when they get to 12/13 even if they might not really be ready and that's without an evangelist,

I think there is an age when young people should decide whether or not to be baptized - probably around 12 or 13.  I wonder if children sometimes get baptized because of pressure from parents, friends, SS teaches, etc.

Talk about kids who aren't ready for baptism - there are probably some people much older than that who might not really be ready - especially into an SDA church.  But who am I to judge who should or should not be baptized?  That should be a decision between the person considering baptism and God.  Besides, being baptized has never meant that one would automatically be immune to sin and temptation.  I wouldn't be surprised if satan doesn't redouble his evil efforts to defeat one who was recently baptized.

[pierrepaul]

I personally wouldn't care if my name were removed from the membership roll. I rarely attend business meetings anyway and when I do I generally abstain from casting a vote, and when I do cast a vote, the motion is usually carried by such a large margin that the vote count doesn't matter, and if it does matter, the subject matter of the vote is usually or trivial import.

[B/W Photodude]

3 hours ago, phkrause said:

Not sure yet how I feel about baptizing kids. Having said that, it seems we do try to baptize kids when they get to 12/13 even if they might not really be ready and that's without an evangelist, but the local churches throughout the country??

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I think there is an age when young people should decide whether or not to be baptized - probably around 12 or 13.  I wonder if children sometimes get baptized because of pressure from parents, friends, SS teaches, etc.

I am all for children who can explain what baptism is all about being baptized. Some children can demonstrate incredible stories of faith and determination to follow Jesus. That said, I know one pastor who hasn't baptized anyone from the community in years and his only baptisms are his grandchildren. Some seem ready for baptism, but others, not so much. I wonder who is benefiting by this.

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Talk about kids who aren't ready for baptism - there are probably some people much older than that who might not really be ready - especially into an SDA church.

I really agree with this. I am not sure the gospel message is really communicated to people new to the faith. I am not sure many in the church understand it. I feel I can say I did not understand it most of my life. I heard it said so many times to "get ready for Jesus to come." But no one really ever spent much time explaining exactly what "getting ready for Jesus to come" really meant. In fact, it is so poorly understood that Paul called it "the mystery of godliness." Seems to me it is still largely a mystery.

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I wouldn't be surprised if satan doesn't redouble his evil efforts to defeat one who was recently baptized.

There are not many things in this life you can depend on. One thing you can "depend on" is that Satan is not going to slack off of his mission. That includes disrupting the new life that people should be baptized into. 

All that said, the gospel commision has one word we do really well ... "baptism." There is another pair of words that are fairly ignored ... "making disciples."